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Where do animals go?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Magnum, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. Magnum

    Magnum New Member

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    When animals die, do they go to heaven?I asked this question in school in religeous studies, and the teacher said that animals are just an aid for humans and do not go to heaven.I can't exactly imagine cats and dogs running around the river of life with Gods name on their foreheads...
     
  2. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    When animals die, they go to the grave, just as humans do. When we are finally resurrected in our new bodies in the New Jerusalem, I'm sure that there will be animals there too, but not resurrected, instead newly formed.
     
  3. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    I disagree, Fox.For your imperishable spirit is in everything! ( Wisdom 12:1 )Who endowed the ibis with wisdon and gave the cock his intelligence? Job 38:36 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing , and the breath of all mankind. ( Job 12:9-10 )Yahweh, your faithful love is in the heavens, your constancy reaches to the clouds, your saving justice is like towering mountains, your judgements like the mighty deep. Yahweh, you support both man and beast. Psalm 36:5-6Yahweh is generous to all, his tenderness embraces all his creatures. All your creatures shall thank you, Yahweh, and your faithful shall bless you ( Psalm 145: 8-10 )All look to you in hope and you feed them with the food of the season. And, with generous hand, you satisfy the desires of every living creature ( Psalm 145: 15-16 )For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains; and the wild beasts of the field are mine.( Psalm 50:10-11 )And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever ( Rev. 5:13 )For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope ( Romans 8:20 )For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God ( Romans 8: 19 )The list of Bible references goes on and on, but my point is that I believe that my beloved dog is with God in Heaven. And God loves his creatures, afterall, he created them and said it was good. God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living.
     
  4. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    I didn't mean to offend you, Ros, of course, and as I point out in my blog entry today, scripture can be interpreted differently by different people. I have seen an opposing point of view presented elsewhere (quoted unedited below); perhaps, however, the last two lines of the study are the ones that matter the most? Do Animals Go To Heaven? This question probably enters the mind of every pet owner, especially when they lose a beloved pet companion. We have pets that have personalities and feelings, and can think and reason. It seems as though whatever it is that makes each pet unique (a soul) is like that which makes each human unique. Therefore, we wonder if pets (or any other animals) go to heaven.Before going on, it is most important to state that if pets do go to heaven, their owners will also have to go to heaven to see them. The Bible makes it clear that the majority of people will not go to heaven—see Matthew chapter 7, verses 13 and 14 (Mat 7:13,14) for one example. Therefore, it is critical that we remind everyone that they need to get right with God themselves or their chances of seeing a departed pet again are zero.There are numerous examples of animals associated with heaven (including 2 Kings 2:11, Revelation 5:13 and 19:11-14) or the “new creation” (Isaiah 65:17-25). Still, the question is “were these animals new creations or do these animals include reborn earthly creatures?” Let’s look at the facts.Both mankind and animals are formed from the ground (Genesis 2:7, 19). This reveals that the physical bodies of both are similar, but it does not tell us about their immortality. God’s covenant with Noah included both people and animals (Genesis 9:9-11). However, that covenant was not one of eternal life, but that He would not again destroy the earth with a flood. The fourth commandment as recorded in Deuteronomy 5:12-15 includes a Sabbath rest for animals as well as people. Again, it reveals some equality between people and animals, but makes no statement regarding animals going to heaven. God takes care of both men and animals (see Matthew 6:26 and Psalm 104—verses 14 and 27-30 in particular). Although death is mentioned in Psalm 104:29, we learn nothing regarding an afterlife. At some future time, Christ (a Rod from the stem of Jesse) will bring about a time of peace where all animals and man will be in harmony (Isaiah 11:1-9). Still, the description is not necessarily of heaven, and these animals are not necessarily reborn animals. Notice the recurring theme, although animals are our “equals” in some ways, none of these passages tells us anything about whether an animal has eternal life.Some writers claim that “all things” in passages like Acts 3:19-21, Philippians 3:20,21, Hebrews 2:8, and Revelation 21:5 include animals. The passage in Romans 8:18-25 certainly does include animals as part of “the creation.” Still, none of these passages reveals that the animals and plants included in “the creation” are reborn rather than newly created.Ephesians 1:3-14 is a passage that speaks of redemption through Christ’s sacrifice. (Redemption concerns setting someone or something free that belonged to another.) Specifically, verse 10 states “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.” Here, “all things” is universal—spiritual and material. That is, this passage is speaking about bringing everything back to a perfect “Genesis chapter 1” condition. Again, this does not directly comment on the eternal life of animals.A Special Comment—This Topic’s Most Popular PassageProbably the most commonly cited passage used for “proof” that animals go to heaven is Ecclesiastes chapter 3, verses 18-22. Since it is so commonly cited, we will examine Ecclesiastes chapter 3 in some detail.First, King Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes. He was (next to Christ) the wisest man to walk the earth. He was also the wealthiest person in the world and could have anything he wanted. As a result, he experimented with everything that this world could offer him. It takes little reading in the book of Ecclesiastes to learn the conclusion: all that the world could provide was meaningless.Next, let’s look at Ecclesiastes chapter 3, verses 10 and 11:10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end. Here we learn that God put eternity into the hearts of people. This makes a distinction between man and beast—not a physical distinction, but a spiritual one. (Notice the contrast with the other Bible passages dealing with animals. They do not refer to eternity or immortality.)Next, verses 15 to 17 reveal that judgment is coming for wicked people:15 That which is has already been,And what is to be has already been;And God requires an account of what is past.16 Moreover I saw under the sun:In the place of judgment,Wickedness was there;And in the place of righteousness,Iniquity was there.17 I said in my heart,“God shall judge the righteous and the wicked,For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.” Of course, the average Jew (the original readers of this Bible text) probably thought, “this does not apply to me,” since they believed that physically being born a Jew (God’s chosen people) was their guarantee of entrance into heaven. Therefore, the text continues:18 I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.”19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. This puts the Jewish reader “in his place” (along with the rest of us). In verses 18-20, the perspective is clearly that of a physical comparison of man to animals. (Solomon already made the spiritual distinction of man in verses 10 and 11.) Now in verses 18-20, we see that both have breath, both die, and both go back to dust. These physical comparisons point towards a completely meaningless existence (from a physical or worldly perspective).With the a spiritual distinction made in verses 10-11, and the physical comparison made in verses 18-20, we now come to verses 21 and 22. They ask two questions that bring the reader to the point of the entire chapter (and the entire book of Ecclesiastes, for that matter).Question one:21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? Answer: The “who” is God.Question two:22 So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage.[1] For who can bring him to see what will happen after him? Answer: Again, the “who” is God.That is the point of Ecclesiastes: this world and what it has to offer us is meaningless by itself, therefore turn towards God, where you can find meaning. As Ecclesiastes states in chapter 12, verse 13:Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:Fear God and keep His commandments,For this is man’s all. [1] Note: People’s works only have to be their (meaningless) heritage if they ignore God. Anyone who gets right with God will have an eternal existence with Him forever in his kingdom. This is a heritage worth having. So, where does that leave us? It leaves us with the truth—the Bible is silent regarding an afterlife for animals. However, we do have one hope. The key passage for this question does not deal with animals directly, but rather God’s promise to those who inherit God’s kingdom—those people who have gotten right with God and will go to heaven themselves. For them, the passage in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 applies:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.9 But as it is written:“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,Nor have entered into the heart of manThe things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” Obviously, what God has prepared for us is wonderful beyond comprehension. Therefore, love your pets as much as you can while they are here. Those of us who go to heaven will later understand that everything worked out perfectly regarding our pets.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Sorry Fox I agree with Ros on this one the bottom line here is 2 Cor. 5:8 is your answerto be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.Whether than body be human or animal it returns to the earth the soul is with the Lord. Anyone who has loved an animal knows it has a soul. Or watch an elephant morn and honor it's dead for years just to name a few.
     
  6. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    Also, Fox, God himself will require punishment from a beast that murder a man, as well as when a man murders a man. So my understanding is that God will require an accounting from his animals as well as man.I think man is rather pompous and overreaching to think that only he can be saved.As for people being saved, God tells Abraham in Genesis that all the nations of the earth will be blessed through Abraham. My understanding is that as the sands of the sea shore is, that they will be blessed.That doesn't sound like a handful of people that will be saved and going to Heaven." Few" being saved is relative to the entire population from day 1, in this earth age.There is also private revelation which after praying, I received consolation for my grief regarding a relative and ( even ) regarding a dog. And the Bible backs my personal revelations. You can believe whatever you like, Fox, but I trust the Lord to be gracious and kind to all his creation.
     
  7. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    There is virtually nothing in the Bible which actually describes the coming Kingdom. Perhaps the best description is Revelation 21:1 --"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the old heaven and the old earth were passed away; and the sea was no longer there. And I saw the holy city, New Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from G-d, prepared as a beautiful bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne say, See! G-d's Sh'kinah is with mankind, and He will live with them. They will be his people, and He Himself, G-d-with-them, will be their G-d. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There willl no longer be any death, and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain, because the old order has passed away."Right away, we see that there is no longer any sea... So there will no longer be any more whales, fish, octupi, molluscs, etc etc... And where is G-d's "cut off" point? What about Musca domestica or Treponema pallidum..?Unfortunately, nature is not an end in itself and the world of plants and animals serves the purposes of the master plan of G-d, who created nature for His overriding purposes, not for our pleasures or sakes.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Did you ever read about the lamb laying/grazing with Wolf?.That certainly isnt in this worldIsa. 11:6 and Isa. 65:25
     
  9. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    Fox, why are you trying so hard to prove that peoples' favorite deceased pets won't be around with them in Heaven? Why should I have to explain everything (to your satisfaction ) in the Bible before I can be " right" about animals/ pets going to Heaven?If I recall, there is a body of water in God's city and it may contain whales for all we know, I don't know, do you?Here's a question for you: if God is the God of the living and not of the dead; then why do we have billions upon billions of dead animals never to see the light of day again?
     
  10. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    (ROS777;6994)
    Also, Fox, God himself will require punishment from a beast that murder a man, as well as when a man murders a man. So my understanding is that God will require an accounting from his animals as well as man.....
    Where did you find this?? Sorry you two but I agree with Fox. When a pet dies it goes back to earth not to heaven.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (kriss;6993)
    Sorry Fox the bottom line here is 2 Cor. 5:8 is your answerto be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.Whether than body be human or animal it returns to the earth the soul is with the Lord. Anyone who has loved an animal knows it has a soul. Or watch an elephant morn and honor it's dead for years just to name a few.
    Its body yes as does ours its soul/spirt?
     
  12. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    kriss,the lamb and the wolf talked about were not someones pet. Animals of some type will be in heaven but not my old dead dog, Max.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Thats your opinion but I'm telling Max what you said when we get therethis debate is now two against two. That means the girls win because every guy knows its the best way to keep the peace:)(just kidding)
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (tomwebster;7013)
    kriss,the lamb and the wolf talked about were not someones pet. Animals of some type will be in heaven but not my old dead dog, Max.
    All kidding aside Tom you can't say there is some animals and not others this would just be speculation the fact is there are animals in the millenium.And what is a wolf if not a type of dog.
     
  15. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    All kidding aside Tom you can't say there is some animals and not others this would just be speculation the fact is there are animals in the millenium.And what is a wolf if not a type of dog.
    There will be animals in heaven, Scripture say so and I didn't say there weren't. But our pets will not be. They do not have a soul like man. They do not have the ability to reason like man. They can not accept Christ as Savior, they don't have the capacity to do that. When they die, they die and retunr to dust.
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    There will be animals in heaven, Scripture says so. We agree . What I said is you nor anyone can state what kind of animals.scripture doesn't tell us some animals have souls and some don't.You can't say wolfs and lambs have souls but dogs and cats don't.you are speculating. All we know for sure is there are animals in heaven. You can't show that these are just spirit animals that did not exist on eartheither you are simply giving your opinion of what you think.Dogs save peoples lives all the time they comfort the sick, medical evidence shows this. They are companions and friends you can see their love for you in their eyes. You may not be an animal person but you will never convince anyone who is they don't have a soul. The very fact God can change their nature as the wolf and the lamb example indicates that there could be more here than what we are aware of.With that I guess we will have to agree to disagree sense scripture only says there are animals......and nothing you can say after that will convince us animal lovers otherwise.
     
  17. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    I didn't say there would be no animals, I said:"I'm sure that there will be animals there too, but not resurrected, instead newly formed."I also pointed out that perhaps the most important part of the Bible study I quoted was the the final two lines...I don't think that's good reasoning above, by the way, because by simple substitution you can produce:"Atheists save peoples lives all the time they comfort the sick, medical evidence shows this. They are companions and friends you can see their love for you in their eyes."
     
  18. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    Where did you find this?? Sorry you two but I agree with Fox. When a pet dies it goes back to earth not to heaven.
    tomwebster, read Genesis 9:5 " Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man. "You can agree with Fox, Tom, all you want. Paul said, eye has not seen, nor ear heard or has it entered in the mind of man what God had prepared for those that loves him.Look, any one of the scriptures I quoted in the above post should be enough. One does have to believe the word of God, fully and completely, though, for it to matter to that person.If one lacks faith to believe, hey, I plant the seed; that's what I can do; I can do no more.
     
  19. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    (Fox;7027)
    I didn't say there would be no animals, I said:"I'm sure that there will be animals there too, but not resurrected, instead newly formed."I also pointed out that perhaps the most important part of the Bible study I quoted was the the final two lines...I don't think that's good reasoning above, by the way, because by simple substitution you can produce:"Atheists save peoples lives all the time they comfort the sick, medical evidence shows this. They are companions and friends you can see their love for you in their eyes."
    So you're an atheist, Fox, is that what you're telling us?Atheists won't/don't believe in God or the Bible, so, why are you quoting Bible scriptures?
     
  20. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    (tomwebster;7013)
    kriss,the lamb and the wolf talked about were not someones pet. Animals of some type will be in heaven but not my old dead dog, Max.
    Ah Tom, you made me drag out my concordance, how about you giving me your documentation that your dead dog will not be in heaven???? :naughty:
     
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