do you have any idea why the hebrew scriptures say that man is 'unconscious' when they die?
See Eccl 9:5
Eccl 9:10
Psalm 115:17
Isaiah 38:18
John 11:11-14
Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?
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do you have any idea why the hebrew scriptures say that man is 'unconscious' when they die?
See Eccl 9:5
Eccl 9:10
Psalm 115:17
Isaiah 38:18
John 11:11-14
There's nothing written in the OT that disagrees with what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed about Paradise, the Lazarus and rich man example, the malefactor being in Paradise with Christ after their deaths on the cross, the "spirits in prison" per Peter, the house not made with hands per Apostle Paul, the idea that there is a 'natural body, and there is a 'spiritual body' per Paul in 1 Cor.15, etc.
If that Eccl.9 Scripture is read in the spiritual sense about the idea of the 'dead', a different picture comes forth. It is all too often applied according to how Sadducees refused the idea of the resurrection of the dead.
Eccl 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
(KJV)
For those who believe in the resurrection of the dead, ask yourself about what Solomon said there:
1. do those of the resurrection unto Christ "neither have they any more a reward"?
2. for those of the resurrection..., is the "memory of them is forgotten"?
3. for those of the resurrection..., do they no more "for ever" have any portion of things done under the sun?
For those who believe on the resurrection unto Eternal Life through Christ Jesus, the answer to all of those questions is a big YES, that we are promised a reward even after flesh death, when Christ returns and hands out His rewards to His saints. Memory of the saints is NEVER forgotten, for we do not perish, and God has promised He would never leave or forsake His faithful servants. WE do have a portion of things done under the sun, when Christ's Kingdom on earth comes.
It's clear Solomon was not applying those in the idea of the 'resurrection' at all with those examples. BUT, who DOES it apply to?
It applies to the 'dead' that will not rise, like the 'giants' (Rephaim). The KJV translators failed to bring the word Rephaim into the translation in several places in the OT. Instead they often just used the word the 'dead', when it's actually about the Rephaim, the giants. The giants are not to be resurrected. Even wicked men will be resurrected, but not those Rephaim.
Thus there is a forever gone, perished, never to rise, group of 'dead' mentioned in God's Word. It's in the ultimate 'dead' sense. Often God applies that idea to Satan himself, as Abaddon and Apollyon in Rev.9. When Jesus spoke of the blind Pharisees like they were whited seplchures full of dead men's bones, graves that men walk upon and not aware of, that also is the spiritual 'dead' sense. That "for ever" in Eccl.9:6 is a marker showing that Message about the 'dead' there is about an idea much deeper than just death of the flesh body.
Ps 115:17-18
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.
(KJV)
See how those two verses declare just the opposite meaning of each other?
Isa 38:17-18
17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but Thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for Thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
18 For the grave cannot praise Thee, death can not celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
(KJV)
Once again, even those two Isaiah 38 verses are in direct contrast to each other, one for the saved, and the other for those who perish.
With the John 11 example about Lazarus, don't forget what else Christ Jesus proclaimed there...
John 11:21-26
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if Thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever Thou wilt ask of God, God will give it Thee."
23 Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
24 Martha saith unto him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25 Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
(KJV)
John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(KJV)
Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
(KJV)
I didn't say they are. The eternal fire is the eternal fire. Call it whatever you like. The name of the place won't matter to the BILLIONS of humans there for eternity. The eternal prison will be so bad that Jesus said it would be better to cut off body parts then to go there. His point is quite clear to me.
Mark 9:43-48 (ESV)
[sup]43 [/sup]And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. [sup]45 [/sup]And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. [sup]47 [/sup]And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, [sup]48 [/sup]‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
well you are the one who feels he spoke literally, so you should at least be able to explain what it means and how it applies.
have you seen what happens to a human who is burned with fire?
If fire can kill a human, then it can kill a worm.
The everlasting fire is everlasting because it will be serving a purpose. It won't burn anyone up, only tormenting them, forever. I.E.
Luke 16:22-26 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, [sup]23 [/sup]and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. [sup]24 [/sup]And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ [sup]25 [/sup]But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. [sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
both these men in the parable died.
If the scriptures tell us that the dead are not conscious of anything... how can this verse apply to them?
It's quite common to deny Jesus/God and eternal punishment. That's one of Satan's common ways of setting humans for the eternal Hell.well i'll tell you what I dont do, I dont deny scripture
I would find it interesting for someone to list all the 'churches' that deny Jesus/God and eternal punishment. Years ago I knew of several of these cults. Right off hand I think of JW's, SDA's and Mormons. Not sure about Mormons though. They all have different saviors than I do.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Mormons believe in Hell, but it is mainly reserved for Satan and his demons. There will also be really bad people there and people who do not accept Joseph Smith and the Mormon message after death. Everyone else will be designated to different levels of heaven depending in their works. One of the craziest parts of Mormon doctrine, often used as a selling point by missionaries, is the idea that families who are sealed together on Earth will spend eternity together; it is crazy because the orthodox view of heaven is more likely going to allow believers to spend eternity together than the Mormon view. If family members do not toe the line as good Mormons - they may end up in a lower Heaven than the rest of their family.
The majority of religious movements that started in the 19th century deny Hell in favor of annihilation (Millerite influence) or achieving a higher conscious state (mind science / Shaker influence). Studying the 19th century religious climate is rich in heresy revival and attempts to answer the problems of the day with religion.
Perhaps you should highlight the reason why 19th century Christianity saw an increase in sects who debated various church doctrines.
Archeology was the main reason. As ancient documents and artifacts were discovered, the meaning of the hebrew & Greek languages became much clearer and bible scholars and lexicographers began to understand the ancient manuscripts more and more. Ancient words such as Sheol and Hade's were more clearly understood....and they didn't mean a fiery place of torment as the church had been teaching.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
The Church has been teaching the same doctrine that the early church taught. Despite the JW insistence on the existence of a Great Apostasy - there is simply no historical evidence for such an event.
I would direct you to 2 Thess 2:3 1Timothy 4:1 2Timothy 2:18 2Timothy 4:3 2 Peter 2:1 1John 2:18 The apostles were certainly convinced that an apostasy was going to develop...and was already developing while they were still around.
Jesus gave an illustration explaining the apostasy at Matthew 13:25
We should not be deceived in this regard.
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