Where does the Pope get his authority?

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Marymog

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So individual Christians can no longer receive the holy Spirit? And the holy Spirit can no longer teach those Christians truth? Jesus said, "without Me ye can do nothing." So how can we even become Christian, let alone live as Christians, without Him in the form of His Spirit?
Jesus spoke to individuals. He was establishing a global church made up of individuals, each having their own individual relationship with Him through His Spirit. You cannot, and I challenge you to try, deny the right of individuals today from having their own individual relationship with Jesus through the inserting holy Spirit... Which is, according to Paul, Christ in you, the hope of glory..
Since you have NO SCRIPTURE in your above post to back up what you are saying then that means you have given your opinion. Thanks for your opinion. I will repeat Scripture: The Holy Spirit may REVEAL the Truth to individual Christians, but The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Not you. Not me. Not individual Christians. If your "individual truth" is different than the Truth The Church teaches then you are to be kicked out of The Church, shunned, gone, shown the front door, treated as a tax collector/pagan. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Bible study Mary
 

Marymog

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So you are placing you entire eternal destiny in the hands of men no better than yourself, and in some cases, worse. I will trust Jesus
I am doing what you refuse to do: Adhere to Scripture.

Submit yourselves to your elders and obey those that rule over you, for they watch out for your soul. They are worthy of double honor. Elders are to keep watch over themselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made them overseers. If you refuse to listen to The Church, the pillar and foundation of Truth, then you will be kicked out of The Church, shunned, treated as a tax collector or pagan.

Y
ou say you trust Jesus. But Jesus isn't interpreting Scripture for you. That means you trust yourself to interpret Scripture! You don't trust the men who rule over you. Which means there is only one man that rules over you that you listen to and you are relying on. That man is YOU! Congratulations :woohoo!:
 

Marymog

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Nowhere on that web site will you find any suggestion that anyone is compelled to believe that which is laid out as the fundamentals of our faith. Being baptized into Christ and into fellowship with any particular assembly of believers is a voluntary act. One chooses to join the Adventist church because when studying scripture he recognises that the teachings of that church reflect what He has read in scripture. Nothing devious or dodgy about that. I seem to have touched a nerve with you. Sorry you are so triggered.
Lol...Nope. You haven't touched a nerve with me and I am not triggered :Laughingoutloud: You crack me up!!

Soooooo a person chooses to join the Adventist church because when they studied Scripture on their own that person recognized that the teachings of the Adventist Church reflect what they have already read in scripture? That means EVERYONE in the Adventist denomination agrees with each other on what Scripture says? You have no disagreements on any passage? That's weird!!:IDK: Your men's website actually says, our promise is to help our friends understand the Bible to find freedom, healing and hope in Jesus. If you would like to experience this kind of relationship with Jesus and learn more about His plans for you, we’ve selected a variety of Bible studies to get you started. Soooo some people join the SDA church already knowing the truth of Scripture and some can only join the SDA church thru a variety of Bible studies? Once they agree with your men, via bible study, THEN they can join?

Curious Mary
 
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Brakelite

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Since you have NO SCRIPTURE in your above post to back up what you are saying then that means you have given your opinion. Thanks for your opinion. I will repeat Scripture: The Holy Spirit may REVEAL the Truth to individual Christians, but The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Not you. Not me. Not individual Christians. If your "individual truth" is different than the Truth The Church teaches then you are to be kicked out of The Church, shunned, gone, shown the front door, treated as a tax collector/pagan. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Bible study Mary
You don't read scripture much do you? Or was it my post you didn't read? I quoted scriptures in my post, and what I said otherwise was based on scripture.
Jesus said, "without Me ye can do nothing."
John 15:5.
So how can we even become Christian, let alone live as Christians, without Him in the form of His Spirit?
KJV Romans 8:5-10

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.​

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.​

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
He was establishing a global church made up of individuals
KJV Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(Global church).
KJV 1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(Made up of individuals).
You cannot, and I challenge you to try, deny the right of individuals today from having their own individual relationship with Jesus through the indwelling holy Spirit...
KJV Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

KJV 1 John 1:3
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ
.

Which is, according to Paul, Christ in you, the hope of glory
KJV Colossians 1:27
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

QUOTE...
Since you have NO SCRIPTURE in your above post to back up what you are saying then that means you have given your opinion. Thanks for your opinion.

Thanks for your misrepresentation.

I will repeat Scripture: The Holy Spirit may REVEAL the Truth to individual Christians, but The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Who said I don't belong to the church?
 
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Brakelite

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Soooo some people join the SDA church already knowing the truth of Scripture
Yes. I was one of them. But not all the truth. Christians continue to study and learn throughout all eternity. In the over all scheme of things, we know nothing much at all. Enough to be assured of our salvation, and prepared for Jesus' return.
and some can only join the SDA church thru a variety of Bible studies?
Many take that route, yes. I did that and the above. One can never know too much about the Bible.
Catholics can only join the church when they learn the catechism right?
Once they agree with your men, via bible study, THEN they can join?
Some may choose to be baptized after Bible studies yes. The "men" don't demand that anyone listen to them over what scripture says. Bible study isn't about man's opinion on what scripture says, it's about what scripture says. It isn't rocket science. What scripture says, you obey. It's that simple. First and foremost, God's commandments.
KJV Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

KJV 1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Not so difficult to understand is it?
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Yes. I was one of them. But not all the truth. Christians continue to study and learn throughout all eternity. In the over all scheme of things, we know nothing much at all. Enough to be assured of our salvation, and prepared for Jesus' return.

Many take that route, yes. I did that and the above. One can never know too much about the Bible.
Catholics can only join the church when they learn the catechism right?

Some may choose to be baptized after Bible studies yes. The "men" don't demand that anyone listen to them over what scripture says. Bible study isn't about man's opinion on what scripture says, it's about what scripture says. It isn't rocket science. What scripture says, you obey. It's that simple. First and foremost, God's commandments.
KJV Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

KJV 1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Not so difficult to understand is it?
The chief recognized forms of individualism are religious ethical, and political. Religious individualism describes the attitude of those persons who refuse to subscribe to definite creeds, or to submit to any external religious authority. Such are those who call themselves freethinkers, and those who profess to believe in Christianity without giving their adhesion to any particular denomination. In a less extreme sense all Protestants are individualists in religion, inasmuch as they regard their individual interpretation of the Bible as the final authority. The Protestant who places the articles of faith adopted by his denomination before his own private interpretation of the teaching of Scripture is not, indeed, a thorough-going individualist, but neither is he a logical Protestant. On the other hand, Catholics accept the voice of the Church as the supreme authority, and therefore reject outright the principle of religious individualism.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Yes. I was one of them. But not all the truth. Christians continue to study and learn throughout all eternity. In the over all scheme of things, we know nothing much at all. Enough to be assured of our salvation, and prepared for Jesus' return.

Many take that route, yes. I did that and the above. One can never know too much about the Bible.
Catholics can only join the church when they learn the catechism right?

Some may choose to be baptized after Bible studies yes. The "men" don't demand that anyone listen to them over what scripture says. Bible study isn't about man's opinion on what scripture says, it's about what scripture says. It isn't rocket science. What scripture says, you obey. It's that simple. First and foremost, God's commandments.
KJV Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

KJV 1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Not so difficult to understand is it?
"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" (Matthew 26:26-28)

Within 65 years after Luther's nail job, there were 200 interpretations of
This is My Body
It looks difficult for some.
 

Brakelite

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"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" (Matthew 26:26-28)

Within 65 years after Luther's nail job, there were 200 interpretations of
This is My Body
It looks difficult for some.
Jesus explained how we should approach such declarations that when literally taken, prove difficult, even impossible to understand. In the context of the above, He said,
KJV John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
In that sense, is why protestants do not, cannot, accept literally eating the flesh of Jesus. Eating the bread of life is taking in His words, allowing them to accomplish the work for which they are intended, giving life and sanctifying out walk with Him.
 

Brakelite

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On the other hand, Catholics accept the voice of the Church as the supreme authority, and therefore reject outright the principle of religious individualism.
I think most of us here understand that. I do not come here as a voice on behalf of Protestantism. Protestantism as a principle is good, but the institutions that have historically professed to be protestants have failed their calling. Protestantism as a worldview, and the need for a reformation isn't a defunct or unnecessary process. Adventists generally I believe are the only true protestants left who seek to continue acting on the truths of the reformation... Only today that reformation necessarily now encompasses all of Christendom, not just Catholicism. That may seem arrogant, but that is how we see our calling, particularly in these last days wherein it is so essential that the church generally needs to prepare for the second coming. As the 3 angels messages says, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come, and worship Him Who created the heavens, the earth, and all that is in them".
But. On this forum, while by default I guess I am a representative of Adventism, I speak principally as an individual Christian, sharing that which I believe to be the truth of scripture. You see, as you said above, Catholics look to the church as their supreme authority. I look to Jesus. You interpret that to mean that I am rather trusting in my own interpretation of scripture. That however is not true. It may be true of others. Certainly history is replete with examples of how private interpretation of scripture has led to all manner of atrocities and evils inflicted upon man in the name of God. Justification of slavery in your own country is one example. The numerous death cults and their suicidal results another. But I do not trust myself. Not one bit, in fact I am afraid of myself and the susceptibility of all men to go off on tangents and detours leading to destruction. Which is why it took 5 years after I accepted the truth of the Sabbath, 5 years before I actually joined the SDA church. I trust Jesus and Him only to teach me. As I read my Bible, it isn't me interpreting what I read. I have a High Priest in heaven who loves me, and wants me to understand and know Him personally. My faith, my trust, my hope for eternal life lies only in Jesus Christ my Saviour and Lord. No-one else. Yes, I have teachers. But they do not have the final word. If they are not in harmony with scripture, I will debate with them until they can prove that what they speak of is biblical, and it is in the will of God. Until then, I pray and ask for wisdom, and place my life in the hands of the God Who died for me. And most Adventist teaches, pastors, evangelists, will tell their listeners, don't trust me, trust the Bible. If what I say isn't in the scriptures, don't accept it.

Even Ellen White said,
When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God.

But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what “Sister White said”—“Sister White said this,” and “Sister White said that,” and “Sister White said the other thing.”

But say, “Thus saith the Lord God of Israel,” and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says.
 

Marymog

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The "men" don't demand that anyone listen to them over what scripture says. Bible study isn't about man's opinion on what scripture says, it's about what scripture says. It isn't rocket science. What scripture says, you obey. It's that simple. First and foremost, God's commandments.
Obey those that rule over you, for they watch out for your soul. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Not so difficult to understand, is it?
 

Marymog

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I quoted scriptures in my post, and what I said otherwise was based on scripture.
No, you didn't. You selectivly quoted 6 words from a verse that had 30 words. That verse has NOTHING to do with what we are discussing.

you crack me up
 

Marymog

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Bible study isn't about man's opinion on what scripture says, it's about what scripture says. It isn't rocket science. What scripture says, you obey. It's that simple. First and foremost, God's commandments.
Ok brakelite. I'm going to walk you thru this nice and slow to see if you understand. This is a scenario based on what Scripture says:

I come to you and use Scripture to show that I believe that you have sinned against me and beg you to apologize. You disagree with me and my interpretation of Scripture. I go and get 2-3 brothers and they all agree with me and tell you that you are wrong and that, according to Scripture, you have sinned and you should apologize/ask for forgiveness. You refuse! The 3-4 of us then go to The Church and ask The Church who is right. The Church tells you that I am right and that you are wrong and that you have sinned, and you must seek forgiveness. You disagree with The Church. You get kicked out of The Church and start your own church with your own interpretation of Scripture.

Who are you obeying?
 

Marymog

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I assume from the roman government and tradition passed down that Christianity in catholic faith needed a leader. I personally believe Jesus Himself is the only true leader we need.
How does Hebrews 13:17 and Luke 10:16 work into your theory?
 

Ritajanice

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QUESTION
GOT Answer.​

What does the Bible say about the pope / papacy?​

Bible pope, Bible papacy
audio

ANSWER

The Roman Catholic Church’s teaching about the pope (“pope” means “father”) is built upon and involves the following Roman Catholic teachings:

1) Christ made Peter the leader of the apostles and of the church (Matthew 16:18-19). In giving Peter the “keys of the kingdom,” Christ not only made him leader, but also made him infallible when he acted or spoke as Christ’s representative on earth (speaking from the seat of authority, or “ex cathedra”). This ability to act on behalf of the church in an infallible way when speaking “ex cathedra” was passed on to Peter’s successors, thus giving the church an infallible guide on earth. The purpose of the papacy is to lead the church unerringly.

2) Peter later became the first bishop of Rome. As bishop of Rome, he exercised authority over all other bishops and church leaders. The teaching that the bishop of Rome is above all other bishops in authority is referred to as the “primacy” of the Roman bishop.

3) Peter passed on his apostolic authority to the next bishop of Rome, along with the other apostles who passed on their apostolic authority to the bishops that they ordained. These new bishops, in turn, passed on that apostolic authority to those bishops that they later ordained, and so on. This “passing on of apostolic authority” is referred to as “apostolic succession.”

4) Based upon the claim of an unbroken chain of Roman bishops, Roman Catholics teach that the Roman Catholic Church is the true church, and that all churches that do not accept the primacy of the pope have broken away from them, the original and one true church.

Having briefly reviewed some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church concerning the papacy, the question is whether those teachings are in agreement with Scripture. The Roman Catholic Church sees the papacy and the infallible teaching authority of “Mother Church” as being necessary to guide the church, and uses that as logical reasoning for God’s provision of it. But in examining Scripture, we find the following:

1) While Peter was central in the early spread of the gospel (part of the meaning behind Matthew 16:18-19), the teaching of Scripture, taken in context, nowhere declares that he was in authority over the other apostles or over the church (see Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; 1 Peter 5:1-5). Nor is it ever taught that the bishop of Rome was to have primacy over the church. Rather, there is only one reference in Scripture of Peter writing from “Babylon,” a name sometimes applied to Rome, found in 1 Peter 5:13. Primarily from this, and the historical rise of the influence of the bishop of Rome (due to the support of Constantine and the Roman emperors who followed him), come the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching of the primacy of the bishop of Rome. However, Scripture shows that Peter’s authority was shared by the other apostles (Ephesians 2:19-20) and that the “loosing and binding” authority attributed to him was likewise shared by the local churches, not just their church leaders (see Matthew 18:15-19; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Titus 2:15; 3:10-11).

2) Nowhere does Scripture state that in order to keep the church from error, the authority of the apostles was passed on to those they ordained (the idea behind apostolic succession). Apostolic succession is “read into” those verses that the Roman Catholic Church uses to support this doctrine (2 Timothy 2:2; 4:2-5; Titus 1:5; 2:1; 2:15; 1 Timothy 5:19-22). What Scripture DOES teach is that false teachings would arise even from among church leaders and that Christians were to compare the teachings of these later church leaders with Scripture, which alone is cited in the Bible as infallible. The Bible does not teach that the apostles were infallible, apart from what was written by them and incorporated into Scripture. Paul, in talking to the church leaders in the large city of Ephesus, makes note of coming false teachers. Paul does NOT commend them to “the apostles and those who would carry on their authority,” but rather to “God and to the word of His grace” (Acts 20:28-32).

Again, the Bible teaches that it is Scripture that is to be used as measuring stick to determine truth from error. In Galatians 1:8-9, Paul states that it is not WHO teaches but WHAT is being taught that is to be used to determine truth from error. While the Roman Catholic Church continues to pronounce a curse to hell, or “anathema,” upon those who would reject the authority of the pope, Scripture reserves that curse for those who would teach a different gospel (Galatians 1:8-9).

3) While the Roman Catholic Church sees apostolic succession as logically necessary in order for God to unerringly guide the church, Scripture states that God has provided for His church through the following:

(a) Infallible Scripture, (Acts 20:32; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; Acts 17:10-12; Isaiah 8:20; 40:8; etc.) Note: Peter speaks of Paul’s writings in the same category as other Scripture (2 Peter 3:16),

(b) Christ’s unending high-priesthood in heaven (Hebrews 7:22-28),

(c) The provision of the Holy Spirit who guided the apostles into truth after Christ’s death (John 16:12-14), who gifts believers for the work of the ministry, including teaching (Romans 12:3-8; Ephesians 4:11-16), and who uses the written Word as His chief tool (Hebrews 4:12; Ephesians 6:17).

While there have seemingly been good (humanly speaking) and moral men who have served as pope of the Roman Catholic Church—some point to Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis I as examples—the Roman Catholic teaching about the office of the pope should be rejected because it is not “in continuity” with the teachings of the New Testament. This comparison of any church’s teaching is essential, lest we miss the New Testament’s teaching concerning the gospel and not only miss eternal life in heaven ourselves but unwittingly lead others down the wrong path (Galatians 1:8-9).
 
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Brakelite

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Ok brakelite. I'm going to walk you thru this nice and slow to see if you understand. This is a scenario based on what Scripture says:

I come to you and use Scripture to show that I believe that you have sinned against me and beg you to apologize. You disagree with me and my interpretation of Scripture. I go and get 2-3 brothers and they all agree with me and tell you that you are wrong and that, according to Scripture, you have sinned and you should apologize/ask for forgiveness. You refuse! The 3-4 of us then go to The Church and ask The Church who is right. The Church tells you that I am right and that you are wrong and that you have sinned, and you must seek forgiveness. You disagree with The Church. You get kicked out of The Church and start your own church with your own proven q interpretation of Scripture.

Who are you obeying?
None of that will be necessary. I will show you a proven alibi, and you will apologise for accusing me falsely, and I will forgive you.
 

Brakelite

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Obey those that rule over you, for they watch out for your soul. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Not so difficult to understand, is it?
If the men and the Bible agree, there's no problem. If the men and the Bible disagree, you are welcome to obey the men, I will obey the Lord God of Israel and His word.
 

Brakelite

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Who are you obeying?
I belong to this church, as described in Revelation 12 and 14...
KJV Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

KJV Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now, you figure out who we should be obeying. God right? And if we are obeying that Him, then we ought not be getting into any bother with the church needing to discipline us right?

Oh wait. What of the thousands who over centuries got into bother with your church because they chose to obey scripture regarding the Sabbath, rather than obeying your church and honouring Sunday? Mmm.
 

RedFan

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Having briefly reviewed some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church concerning the papacy, the question is whether those teachings are in agreement with Scripture.
I like your review, and this question is a fair one to ask. But I don't think the answer is resolvable definitively. Better just to ask: "Having briefly reviewed some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church concerning the papacy, the question is whether those teachings are accurate."

Disagreement with Scripture is, as you note, one way they might be inaccurate. Unsupported by Scripture is not. (Lots of things are unsupported by Scripture, yet true.) And I think at the end of the day, unsupported is all you'll convince me of (although I am not Roman Catholic and don't subscribe to papal primacy) -- but I'm looking forward to the discussion with you.
 
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Ritajanice

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I like your review, and this question is a fair one to ask. But I don't think the answer is resolvable definitively. Better just to ask: "Having briefly reviewed some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church concerning the papacy, the question is whether those teachings are accurate."

Disagreement with Scripture is, as you note, one way they might be inaccurate. Unsupported by Scripture is not. (Lots of things are unsupported by Scripture, yet true.) And I think at the end of the day, unsupported is all you'll convince me of (although I am not Roman Catholic and don't subscribe to papal primacy) -- but I'm looking forward to the discussion with you.
Brother/ Sister...I just posted that commentary for reference, I have no understanding of who gave the pope his authority...

Apologies, I should have explained that at the beginning of the commentary.