Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Brakelite]

Absolutely.
As for your erroneous view that the ECFs didn’t consider the Church to be centered in Rone – guess again . . .

Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Martyrs of Lyons
“And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches” (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

Eusebius of Caesarea
Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love” (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

Pope Julius I
“[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. . . . Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here
(Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).

I have no argument that your chosen "church fathers" saw Rome as the centre of their universe. Rome was the capital of the Empire until the 4th century and the centre of economic and political power, so why should they not think it the centre of religious power as well? But that mindset wasn't established by any godly revelation or scriptural mandate was it. It became merely a Roman tradition, that in later years had to produce forged documents to "prove" it was legitimate.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have no argument that your chosen "church fathers" saw Rome as the centre of their universe. Rome was the capital of the Empire until the 4th century and the centre of economic and political power, so why should they not think it the centre of religious power as well? But that mindset wasn't established by any godly revelation or scriptural mandate was it. It became merely a Roman tradition, that in later years had to produce forged documents to "prove" it was legitimate.

WRONG.
Church Authority is ABSOLUTELY a Scriptural mandate:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

 

[The Learner]

I belong to a denomination to whom I have surrendered allegiance. I will obey and hear my elders so long as they bear witness to the truth as taught in the scriptures. I am allowed freedom of conscience. Freedom of conscience and the right to think for oneself is a gift of God and does not preclude being under the authority of others.

If they taught you the false undersanding of Jer 10 then they are leading you astray and are not worth following, nor 2 cents.

 

[The Learner]

WRONG.
Church Authority is ABSOLUTELY a Scriptural mandate:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Thessalonians 3:6
   Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the traditionwhich he received of us.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[The Learner]

WRONG.
Church Authority is ABSOLUTELY a Scriptural mandate:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

 

[Brakelite]

WRONG.
Church Authority is ABSOLUTELY a Scriptural mandate:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

So the Bereans were wrong to confirm that the scriptures agreed with Paul? You are seeking to assert that we should obey the church blindly without recourse to God's word. Is that correct?

 

[Brakelite]

I belong to a denomination to whom I have surrendered allegiance. I will obey and hear my elders so long as they bear witness to the truth as taught in the scriptures. I am allowed freedom of conscience. Freedom of conscience and the right to think for oneself is a gift of God and does not preclude being under the authority of others.

I would like to add that the authority I speak of is limited to my behaviour in church, and how my lifestyle may present itself in the public eye as a representative of that denomination, and ultimately, Jesus. That authority has no jurisdiction outside of church. It does not touch my marriage, my family, my work, my hobbies, my friends, my leisure time. Nor does it touch my stand in politics, social interactions, view on society, economics, or anything else outside of church.
All the above is shaped and sanctified by my relationship with my Saviour, and His word.
Now the Catholic church on the other hand is a very different kettle of fish, seeking authority and influence on every aspect of ones religious, social, and political life. And despite recent pronouncements to the contrary, Rome has this underlying back-door almost imperceptible proclivity to stamping on freedom of conscience when it has the power. History, and the enacting in society the age old dogmas that emanated from ancient "doctors" of the church that cried out for the extermination of heresy, have never been made officially redundant. That however, ought not be the chief concern for protestants at this time, at least this non Catholics who cherish their freedoms and liberties. Rome, while having great influence in international affairs, does not wield the power she once had in national and local politics, so isn't the immediate danger she once was.
The immediate danger lies much closer to home, and ironically, is also intimately connected to the topic of authority in which we are currently discussing.

 

[Adrift]

The Catholic "Pope" has no authority over me. We are mandated by God to not change or add to the scriptures. Tha Catholic church prefers their followers to ignore the bible and "this is really what you should think and do". It's difficult to imagine that God would condone this succession of evil, anti-biblical men who consider themselves Christian "Leaders". The evil Popes were the inevitable consequence of the Pope being the secular ruler of Rome and later the Papal States. The lure of political power and worldly wealth attracted base, venal and corrupt men to the See of Peter. These are just a few samples in the succession of horrific Popes:

Pope stephan VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy.

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him

There are many more. Not my idea of Christian Leaders. Even if you believe that the current Pope (who blesses same-sex marriages) is a valid Leader, remember that even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile.

 

[Brakelite]

If they taught you the false undersanding of Jer 10 then they are leading you astray and are not worth following, nor 2 cents.

The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a Spirit; yet He is a personal Being; for so He has revealed Himself: "The Lord is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting King" (Jeremiah 10:10). . . .So while nature is an expression of God's thought, it is not nature, but the God of nature, that is to be exalted.{MH 413} EGW

 

[Marymog]

O dear, now we have a comprehension issue....I did not say that you were illiterate...

Lol...OK Jane. Whatever you say. NOW you are saying I have a comprehension problem But I suspect you will allege that you didn't say that either.

Quote from YOU: it appears that you are somewhat illiterate

But I get it. You want to say that I am only illiterate when it comes to reading between the lines. I clearly addressed that already kiddo. But if it makes you feel better.........you do you boo boo.

 

[Marymog]

That is what happens when the lens through which to see things, needs cleaning.

Pot calling the kettle black

 

[Marymog]

I belong to a denomination to whom I have surrendered allegiance. I will obey and hear my elders so long as they bear witness to the truth as taught in the scriptures. I am allowed freedom of conscience. Freedom of conscience and the right to think for oneself is a gift of God and does not preclude being under the authority of others.

Lol...as long as YOU say they are bearing witness to the truth taught in Scripture! Then, and only then will you "obey and hear" your elders.

 

[Marymog]

So the Bereans were wrong to confirm that the scriptures agreed with Paul? You are seeking to assert that we should obey the church blindly without recourse to God's word. Is that correct?

Once the Beareans, who were Jews, realized that Paul was telling them the Truth about Jesus fulfilling Scripture they then became Christians! They then obeyed the teachings of the men of The Church. They DIDN'T listen to the teachings of the Apostles and then disregard the teachings they disagreed with or didn't like.

Do you really not understand that?

 

[Marymog]

Catholic theology is so far removed from anything Christ taught, that trying to tie in scripture to any of it is a tangled web of deceit. Nothing in Roman Catholic worship has any scriptural basis at all.

Hmmmm......all Christian denominations say the same thing about JW's.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So the Bereans were wrong to confirm that the scriptures agreed with Paul? You are seeking to assert that we should obey the church blindly without recourse to God's word. Is that correct?

The Bereans appealed to Scripture, for clues about what Paul taught them - which is a good thing because Scripture is Authoritative.

You forget, howeber, that the Bereans ultimately believed in a fact that is NOT in the OT - that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of God.
They learned that from His Church, which is also Authoritative.

 

[RedFan]

Once the Beareans, who were Jews, realized that Paul was telling them the Truth about Jesus fulfilling Scripture they then became Christians! They then obeyed the teachings of the men of The Church. They DIDN'T listen to the teachings of the Apostles and then disregard the teachings they disagreed with or didn't like.

Do you really not understand that?

I wasn't around, so I don't know if the Beareans rejected any teachings of any apostles (maybe they never crossed paths with a single one of the original twelve or original seventy; maybe Paul told them, as he told the Galatians, about how Peter couldn't be trusted to get things right). I'd just be speculating. As you are. But this much seems clear; they fact-checked Paul's teachings against the OT.

If (as I presume) Paul was 100% consistent with the OT, then there is no way to ever know whether the Beareans would have rejected Paul's teachings had they been inconsistent with Scripture. I'd like to think so. It's perfectly proper to challenge one's leaders when they clearly stray from Scripture on matters of doctrine.

The elephant in the room here is papal infallibility. Buy into that, and the possibilty of church leadership straying from Scripture in matters of doctrine disappears.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The elephant in the room here is papal infallibility. Buy into that, and the possibilty of church leadership straying from Scripture in matters of doctrine disappears.

Bingo! So it all boils down to “who” you believe, rather than just “what” you believe....?
We are all led by the words of someone we believe is telling the truth.....what a strange thing “belief” is when you boil it all down....what is it that makes one person accept a belief, whilst another rejects it outright?

It really is all about the leadership.....and whether those who lead us are themselves, “Beroeans” by nature. It says in Acts 17:10-11 that the Beroeans were more “noble minded” than those in Thessalonica.....so, what made them “noble minded”?
Nobles in the Bible are “well born of a noble family”....so does this indicate a better level of education, and therefore a better grasp of scripture than an uneducated person? These were Jews who were open to new ideas, rather than being closed minded to things that were perceived to be outside of Jewish (Pharisaical) teachings.....rather than exercise the prejudice that was common among the Pharisees and those taught by them, these people examined the scriptures to confirm what Paul was saying. The scriptural confirmation was all they needed to accept his teachings as truth, even thought it was not accepted by the Jewish leadership.

By giving church leaders power over others, corruption was never far away. Look what it did to many of Israel’s kings, and the Jewish priesthood.....this is why Jesus took away all thought of that kind of leadership and made it more into shepherding. How many times did Jesus talk about ‘sheep and shepherds’ in his sermons. He himself is the “Fine Shepherd”, caring for every lost lamb....making sure that each one was valued and precious.

We have a lot to learn about so many things.....

 

[Brakelite]

Lol...as long as YOU say they are bearing witness to the truth taught in Scripture! Then, and only then will you "obey and hear" your elders.

Yes. Precisely, you've got it. Just like the Bereans did after hearing the teachings of Paul. The final authority in all spiritual matters is God's word. Not what anyone else thinks the word of God says, but salvation is and always has been personal. Salvation isn't a group thing. Belonging to a church doesn't guarantee anything. Deciding ones own fate in light of the teachings and counsel of the word of God and led by the Spirit of God...that's called religious liberty, freedom of conscience. It is a gift of God not to be repudiated and trampled upon by self opinionated dictatorial institutions with an over inflated sense of their own authority.
I pray. I ask the holy Spirit for guidance. Then I read the Bible fully trusting that God will honour His promise that the holy Spirit will guide His people into all truth, and that it is God's word that sanctifies and changes my life, my worldview, my innermost motives and propensities.
KJV John 17:17-20
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.

Then, after learning the truth from God's word, I search for that church that most closely aligns itself with God's word. If however they should deviate from what I believe scripture teaches, then the church, and me, ought to be open to discussion. If the church should stand firm in what they teach, they have every right to correct me, and show me my error. If I don't see things their way, and they don't see things my way, and no-one is willing to compromise, then both parties are free to part company. What it does not mean is that the authority the church has gives it the right to enforce measures to torture, steal my property, disown me, and hang me from the tree at the back of the yard.
It isn't about me. Nor you. Or any specific church as having "authority" over conscience. It's all about God and His final authority as Ruler over the heavenly kingdom to which we all have our citizenship. We do not belong to this world. We are not to surrender ourselves lock stock and barrel to earthly authorities. God has granted limited authority to different institutions for the smooth running of government and church. But they are limited to their own sphere of jurisdiction. One area no-one has control over is the individual's mind... His right and ability to think for himself, make his own decisions regarding his eternal destiny and the welfare of his own soul. It is the individual's choice as to who he renders allegiance. God, or man.

 

[Brakelite]

They DIDN'T listen to the teachings of the Apostles and then disregard the teachings they disagreed with or didn't like.

You think they didn't come across teachings they didn't agree with? Not from the Apostles, but others, particularly after the apostles were gone, and even while they were still alive...
KJV Jude 1:3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

What guided individual Christians who believed in the gospel but weren't loving in places where there was an established church? Throughout the known world, from Britain to China, from the lower Slavic nations to India and Africa, the gospel had turned the world upside down. Only a very small portion of those Christians had Rome to refer to for questions on doctrine and truth. And why should they trust Rome anyway, when their own leaders were every bit as knowledgeable in the scriptures as the priests, some of whom were as illiterate as the common people, popes, some of whom claimed the title by bribery and murder and who were by that time benefiting from political largesse by the hand of Kings and Queens and emperors of Europe? Who to ask when that particular church was in a helter skelter slide into apostasy? Who to trust when that church had already changed the 4th Commandment and was enforcing it by legislation powered by secular armies? What else in scripture was that church changing, denying, no longer observing, lying about, distorting, or compromising on? What to trust?
The scriptures. The scriptures alone are our safeguard against heresy and false teaching.

 

[Brakelite]

You forget, howeber, that the Bereans ultimately believed in a fact that is NOT in the OT - that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of God.
They learned that from His Church, which is also Authoritative.

Jesus disagrees with you.
KJV Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.