Where does the Pope get his authority?

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Brakelite

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Where does the pope get his authority?


He has none!
That's not exactly true. He did have authority, but it's up to you whether he has authority over you. It's much like an idol having worshippers. If no-one worshipped the carved block of rock, it would cease to be an idol. It's the same with papal authority. The Pope only has authority over those who submit to it. That's it. The choice is ours.
 

RedFan

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That's not exactly true. He did have authority, but it's up to you whether he has authority over you. It's much like an idol having worshippers. If no-one worshipped the carved block of rock, it would cease to be an idol. It's the same with papal authority. The Pope only has authority over those who submit to it. That's it. The choice is ours.
If A seeks to assert ecclesiastical authority over B, but lacks power (be it physically or by persuasion and fear of damnation) to force B's submission, then it is B's choice whether to submit to A's authority. If A doesn't seek to assert such authority over B, then A's power to force submission is irrelevant and it is always B's choice whether to acknowledge A's authority.

The RCC no longer seeks to assert authority over non-Catholics, despite occasional pontifications.
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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I'm not seeing what this has to do with Peter's primacy, much less that of his successors.
Peter's primacy and apostolic succession are different topics, but related. It makes no sense to establish a church only to have the office of the appointed leader disappear with his death.
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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If A seeks to assert ecclesiastical authority over B, but lacks power (be it physically or by persuasion and fear of damnation) to force B's submission,
Your presupposition of "ecclesiastical authority" is false, it violates religious freedom. ecclesiastical authority cannot impose truths. Truths can only be proposed to those who are disposed to receive it. There is no forced submission. Despite the actions of a few power hungry kings, forced conversions have never been recognized as valid by the Church. You sound like Brakelite.
then it is B's choice whether to submit to A's authority.
Yes, but on the grounds of reason.
I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
If A doesn't seek to assert such authority over B, then A's power to force submission is irrelevant and it is always B's choice whether to acknowledge A's authority.
Agreed, but again, forced submission exists only in the minds of radical quasi-Christian cults that popped up <200 years ago.
The RCC no longer seeks to assert authority over non-Catholics, despite occasional pontifications.
The CC has never forced starving non-Catholics to eat food.

"occasional pontifications" are a light unto the nations to preserve the integrity of the family and the social order. For example, the death penalty is outdated and inhumane, given advances in rehabilitation, but the Church has no power over judicial systems. Same with abortion, a serious crime against God and man, yet we have formerly "Catholic" countries like Italy, Ireland, and Argentina passing liberal abortion laws. Where is all this "power and authority" the Pope is supposed to have???
"The RCC no longer seeks to assert authority over non-Catholics" presupposes the CC once sought to assert authority over non-Catholics. It doesn't work that way.
 
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RedFan

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Peter's primacy and apostolic succession are different topics, but related. It makes no sense to establish a church only to have the office of the appointed leader disappear with his death.

Sure, but it hardly follows that Peter's appointment of a successor (as opposed to by election by other elders/bishops/apostles still alive) was the intended succession protocol. Indeed, we don;t know what the original succession protocol even was. We have no clear proof that Peter appointed any particular person to handle the Keys after his death.
 

BreadOfLife

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That's not exactly true. He did have authority, but it's up to you whether he has authority over you. It's much like an idol having worshippers. If no-one worshipped the carved block of rock, it would cease to be an idol. It's the same with papal authority. The Pope only has authority over those who submit to it. That's it. The choice is ours.
Jesus said the following to the leaders of the Church He was building:

Luke 10:16

Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

The choice is indeed yours . . .
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Sure, but it hardly follows that Peter's appointment of a successor (as opposed to by election by other elders/bishops/apostles still alive) was the intended succession protocol. Indeed, we don;t know what the original succession protocol even was. We have no clear proof that Peter appointed any particular person to handle the Keys after his death.

Dead popes don't appoint their successors, they are elected or unanimously acclaimed after the pope's death.

Pope St. Linus
(Reigned about A.D. 64 or 67 to 76 or 79).

All the ancient records of the Roman bishops which have been handed down to us by St. Irenaeus, Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius, also the Liberian catalogue of 354, place the name of Linus directly after that of the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter. These records are traced back to a list of the Roman bishops which existed in the time of Pope Eleutherus (about 174-189), when Irenaeus wrote his book "Adversus haereses". As opposed to this testimony, we cannot accept as more reliable Tertullian's assertion, which unquestionably places St. Clement (De praescriptione, xxxii) after the Apostle Peter, as was also done later by other Latin scholars (Jerome, Illustrious Men 15). The Roman list in Irenaeus has undoubtedly greater claims to historical authority. This author claims that Pope Linus is the Linus mentioned by St. Paul in his 2 Timothy 4:21. The passage by Irenaeus (Against Heresies III.3.3) reads:

After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Call no man Father , for your FATHER IS IN HEAVEN , you are brethren .
I never seemed to see one apostel call peter FATHER and the others brethren either . THEY WERE ALL EQUALS .
THIS is nothing more than man made traidtions by men who LOVED to have the pre emience , the recognition
and etc . They even call themselves MOST HOLY FATHER . THAT SHOULD BE THE TITLE OF GOD and not of man . this
instituion DUPED ITS PEOPLES BIG TIME .
So, what we gave here is either blatant dishonesty or total ignorance of the Word of God.
In YOUT case – it’s BOTH.

When Jesus told the crowds not to call men “Father” or “Teacher” in Matt. 23:8-9, He was chastising the Pharisees who placed themselves ABOVE our Father and Teacher in Heaven.
He was NOT forbidding the use of these terms, Einstein.

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- “Honor thy FATHER and thy mother” (Exod. 20:12).
- Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- "For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).

- "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS" (1 Cor. 12:28).

I have educated you about this MANY times, so every time you bring this up, you are perpetuating a
LIE . . .
 

amigo de christo

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So, what we gave here is either blatant dishonesty or total ignorance of the Word of God.
In YOUT case – it’s BOTH.

When Jesus told the crowds not to call men “Father” or “Teacher” in Matt. 23:8-9, He was chastising the Pharisees who placed themselves ABOVE our Father and Teacher in Heaven.
He was NOT forbidding the use of these terms, Einstein.


- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- “Honor thy FATHER and thy mother” (Exod. 20:12).
- Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- "For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).

- "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS" (1 Cor. 12:28).

I have educated you about this MANY times, so every time you bring this up, you are perpetuating a
LIE . . .
your education has a rather strong odor to it . IT cometh of men gone wrong .
MOST HOLY FATHER , MOST HOLY REVERAND . please . GOD ALONE GETS THEM TITLES
and i sure as heck would not only WARN all to never ONCE CALL ME THOSE NAMES
heck i wont call anyone those names either . NOR FOLLOW THEM WHO DO SO . BETTER RUN TO THE BIBLE NOW
and RUN FROM ya institution , cause it has led you and is leading you astray my friend .
BUT dont you ever once think i have come to bully on the catholics
BELIEVE YOU ME i am and do and shall expose the realm of the protestants too . AND SPECIALLY THIS BIG OL
mess of its FALSE LOVE LETS BE ONE UNITY MOVE that ALL SEEM TO BE GOING UNDER . amigo out .
 
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BreadOfLife

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I'm not seeing what this has to do with Peter's primacy, much less that of his successors.
That's because you have your “anti-Catholic glasses” on.

In John 21:15-19, Jesus asks Peter THREE TIMES to =
“Feed my lambs”
“Rend my sheep”
“Feed my sheep”


He singles out Peter – and Peter ALONE for this task.
The same Peter to who He said the following:

Matt 16:16-19

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
 

BreadOfLife

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your education has a rather strong odor to it . IT cometh of men gone wrong .
MOST HOLY FATHER , MOST HOLY REVERAND . please . GOD ALONE GETS THEM TITLES
and i sure as heck would not only WARN all to never ONCE CALL ME THOSE NAMES
heck i wont call anyone those names either .
NOR FOLLOW THEM WHO DO SO . BETTER RUN TO THE BIBLE NOW
and RUN FROM ya institution , cause it has led you and is leading you astray my friend .
BUT dont you ever once think i have come to bully on the catholics
BELIEVE YOU ME i am and do and shall expose the realm of the protestants too . AND SPECIALLY THIS BIG OL
mess of its FALSE LOVE LETS BE ONE UNITY MOVE that ALL SEEM TO BE GOING UNDER . amigo out .
You can choose to live in denial and dishonesty – but the facts are clear.

The man who impregnated your mother is your FATHER – and YOU are commanded to honor him.

The person who taught you how to spell was your TEACHER.
Unfortunately – they
failed . . .
 
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Brakelite

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If A seeks to assert ecclesiastical authority over B, but lacks power (be it physically or by persuasion and fear of damnation) to force B's submission, then it is B's choice whether to submit to A's authority. If A doesn't seek to assert such authority over B, then A's power to force submission is irrelevant and it is always B's choice whether to acknowledge A's authority.

The RCC no longer seeks to assert authority over non-Catholics, despite occasional pontifications.
I agree with this as far as the public sinners is concerned. However, a number of recent encyclicals are quite clear that Catholic social policy is that which is promoted as the only direction governments should take into the future. Such policy, the writers of such encyclicals have directed, should have, in Benedict's own words, teeth. In other words, those policies should be enacted in law to enforce them. That sounds to me very much like the Vatican would very much like the world to accept Catholic teachings on various subjects such as climate change, economy, and Sunday sacredness.
I could say much more on where such policies would lead, particularly the economic direction in function with the WEF and the UN, but that's got another day. Suffice to say that the ambitions of Rome are still global and a certain expectation of leadership included.
 

Brakelite

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Jesus said the following to the leaders of the Church He was building:

Luke 10:16

Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

The choice is indeed yours . . .
Historically, such choices for the common people was a bit thin on the ground. And what if those leaders taught rubbish? Did Jesus still expect people to listen as if it were Him speaking?
 
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Titus

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That's not exactly true. He did have authority, but it's up to you whether he has authority over you. It's much like an idol having worshippers. If no-one worshipped the carved block of rock, it would cease to be an idol. It's the same with papal authority. The Pope only has authority over those who submit to it. That's it. The choice is ours.
No pope taught in the scriptures Therefore its heresy to claim a position of power that God never authorized.
 

BreadOfLife

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Historically, such choices for the common people was a bit thin on the ground. And what of those leaders taught rubbish? Did Jesus still expect people to listen as of it were Him speaking?
In personal practice – everybody is capable of error.
Peter was wrong when he wouldn’t eat with Gentiles because of the way he might be perceived.

Doctrinally-speaking, however, the Church has never taught “rubbish”. It is incapable of teaching error – otherwise, Jesus is a liar (Matt. 16:19, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15).
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Historically, such choices for the common people was a bit thin on the ground. And what of those leaders taught rubbish? Did Jesus still expect people to listen as of it were Him speaking?
Historically, leaders who taught rubbish were heretics. They caused much confusion. That's why councils were held. Your sect rejects all councils, leaving you open to fall for the rubbish refuted by the same councils.
Let's see where Luke 10:16 has you confused:

Luke 10:16
Whoever (common people) listens to YOU (Apostles and authorized teachers) listens to ME (Jesus). Whoever (biblically and historically illiterate fools) rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE (The Father) who sent ME."
Fortunately, God is merciful and takes invincible ignorance into account. One cannot reject something they know little or nothing about, like those who can't find "pope" in the Bible.
 
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RedFan

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Dead popes don't appoint their successors, they are elected or unanimously acclaimed after the pope's death.
Obviously dead popes don't appoint successors, although they could appoint a successor while alive. Peter's successor, if elected or unanimously acclaimed, must have been elected or unanimously acclaimed the Bishop of Rome by some subset of Church leaders. Where is the legitimacy in that? I don't know how many of the original apostles were still alive, nor of those who were, how many participated in this election or acclamation -- or how many even knew much about Linus, who "some say, was second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter" (John Chrysostom, Homily 10 on Second Timothy). Clearly this was nothing like the election of Matthias to take Judas's place. By the time Peter died, the living original apostles were spread around the world. With fair seas, word of his death could travel from Rome to, say, Palestine in about two months. Are you suggesting that the call went out from Rome for electing his successor everywhere in the Mediterranean world, and successfully garnered unanimous support of bishops OUTSIDE OF ITALY?

Regardless of how the Bishop of Rome was elected or appointed after Peter's death, whence cometh his preeminence? Why not a bishop Peter appointed in, say, Antioch? Does the fact that Peter happened to breathe his last in a particular city mean that the bishops of that city must forever possess the keys of the kingdom?
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Obviously dead popes don't appoint successors, although they could appoint a successor while alive.
I know of no such precedence.
Peter's successor, if elected or unanimously acclaimed, must have been elected or unanimously acclaimed the Bishop of Rome by some subset of Church leaders. Where is the legitimacy in that?
Where is the legitimacy in drawing straws? Unless all the candidates to replace Judas were qualified. There is no "subset of church leaders" in Acts 1.
I don't know how many of the original apostles were still alive, nor of those who were, how many participated in this election or acclamation -- or how many even knew much about Linus, who "some say, was second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter" (John Chrysostom, Homily 10 on Second Timothy). Clearly this was nothing like the election of Matthias to take Judas's place. By the time Peter died, the living original apostles were spread around the world. With fair seas, word of his death could travel from Rome to, say, Palestine in about two months. Are you suggesting that the call went out from Rome for electing his successor everywhere in the Mediterranean world, and successfully garnered unanimous support of bishops OUTSIDE OF ITALY?
Peter was martyred around 64 A.D. in Rome. I don't think the original 11 Apostles travelled the world without planes and helicopters in such a short period of time.
Regardless of how the Bishop of Rome was elected or appointed after Peter's death, whence cometh his preeminence? Why not a bishop Peter appointed in, say, Antioch. Does the fact that Peter happened to breathe his last in a particular city mean that the bishops of that city must forever possess the keys of the kingdom?
Clement I was the 4rth pope when the Apostle John was still alive. Why wasn't John the pope?
Sorry if I made you think.