Where does the Pope get his authority?

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Behold

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There were over 300+ letters, documents, books, etc., that were considered important writings.

The Letters of the Apostles... Are the NT.

Not "what the Church Father's said"

And you dont have to talk about "what is not in the canon"... ok?

No need.

Just These..

And when you want to know what is the "Doctrine for the Church", then you read Paul's LETTERS (Epistles).

 

Jude Thaddeus

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The Letters of the Apostles... Are the NT.

Not "what the Church Father's said"
The Church Fathers developed what Paul said.
And you dont have to talk about "what is not in the canon"... ok?

No need.

Just These..

And when you want to know what is the "Doctrine for the Church", then you read Paul's LETTERS (Epistles).
It is incorrect to regard St. Paul as some kind of spiritual “lone ranger,” on his own with no particular ecclesiastical allegiance, since he was commissioned by Jesus Himself as an Apostle.
-In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6; cf. 9:17).
-He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Galatians 1:18), and
-fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:1-2, 9).
-He was also sent out by the Church at Antioch (Acts 13:1-4), which was in contact with the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:19-27).
-Later on, Paul reported back to Antioch (Acts 14:26-28).
Acts 15:2 states: “. . . Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.” The next verse refers to Paul and Barnabas “being sent on their way by the church.” --Paul did what he was told to do by the Jerusalem Council (where he played no huge role), and Paul and Barnabas were sent off, or commissioned by the council (15:22-27), and shared its binding teachings in their missionary journeys: “. . . delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).

The Jerusalem Council certainly regarded its teachings as infallible, and guided by the Holy Spirit Himself. The records we have of it don’t even record much discussion about biblical prooftexts, and the main issue was circumcision (where there is a lot of Scripture to draw from). Paul accepted its authority and proclaimed its teachings (Acts 16:4).

Furthermore, Paul appears to be passing on his office to Timothy (1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:6, 13-14; 2 Tim 4:1-6), and tells him to pass his office along, in turn (2 Tim 2:1-2) which would be another indication of apostolic succession in the Bible.

The attempt to pretend that St. Paul was somehow on his own, disconnected to the institutional Church, has always failed, as unbiblical. Radical Protestants frown upon institutions, but we Catholics rather like the Church that Jesus Christ set up, initially led by St. Peter.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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"Cult of the Virgin".... '2024
-


View attachment 45287
Can you crank up the hate any harder???

The Black Madonna
, (taken from the painting) and icon in the chapel of the Virgin Mary in the fortified Baroque Pauline monastery of Jasna Góra, in Częstochowa, Poland, that has been venerated by Christians for some 600 years. The Black Madonna is an exceptionally beautiful symbolic painting of the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus. Mary and Jesus are dark-skinned, and their crowns, halos, and robes are elaborately decorated.

The artist and the age of the painting are unknown. Legend has it that it was painted in the 6th century by St. Luke, though art historians believe that it is more likely a Byzantine creation that dates to the 12th–14th century. Historical documents dating to the late 15th century indicate that The Black Madonna traveled from Constantinople to the town of Belz in Ukraine, where it was acquired by the duke of Opole, who took it to Jasna Góra. It arrived there at about the time of the monastery’s founding in 1382.

The Black Madonna is credited with numerous miracles. One legend surrounds the “scars” on the painting of Mary’s face. The story goes that in 1430 Hussites attacked the monastery and tried to steal the painting, slashing it with their swords when their horses refused to move. No attempt at repairing the damage was successful. The most significant miracle attributed to The Black Madonna is the saving of the monastery from the Swedish invasion and siege of 1655, for which she was acclaimed queen and protector of Poland by King John II Casimir Vasa in 1656. The Black Madonna was later credited with defeating a Russian attack in 1920.

1716137992621.png

The shrine devoted to this icon is believed to be the most popular one in Poland. It was particularly venerated by Pope John Paul II and by labor activist and political leader Lech Wałęsa. The icon is unveiled twice a day for the many visitors, and thousands visit on August 26, the icon’s feast day.
I'm sorry you don't like encyclopedias. Do you hate Polish people too?
 
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Behold

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The Black Madonna, painting and icon in the chapel of the Virgin Mary in the fortified Baroque Pauline monastery

The issue with the Photo i posted, isnt that a 20 Ft tall, Plastic Mary is on a Throne...

The issue is, that the POPE is worshiping this IDOL. ("The Cult of the VIRGIN")....

And before you try to defend this... explain instead why a 20 FT Plastic MARY is in a Catholic Church, on a Throne, wearing a golden Crown.... as that will be very interesting reading ....

Take your time..
 

Jude Thaddeus

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The issue with the Photo i posted, isnt that a 20 Ft tall, Plastic Mary is on a Throne...

The issue is, that the POPE is worshiping this IDOL. ("The Cult of the VIRGIN")....
That's what you see, but it is not the reality. Plus you are OFF TOPIC.
The Pope is venerating the prototype (who is in heaven), not plastic. Only stupid people think the Pope worships plastic. The disdain for anything physical, especially Christian art, originates in Gnosticism, not Christianity. Veneration is not worship. It's too bad we have to teach plain English with dictionaries to stubborn anti-Catholics.
BTW, it was CALVIN that infected Protestantism with insane iconoclasm and you are no different.
And before you try to defend this... explain instead why a 20 FT Plastic MARY is in a Catholic Church, on a Throne, wearing a golden Crown.... as that will be very interesting reading ....

Take your time..
Do you love your mother? Let's start there.
Better still, lets get back to the topic and stop with the derailers.
Where does the Pope get his authority? From the prerogatives He gave to Peter.
The notion that Peter's authority died with him is a man made tradition.
 
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Augustin56

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Your Pope is "venerating" a plastic Idol.

Thats the "reality".

"Cult of the VIRGIN", and your "church Fathers" created that term, not me.
No, he's not. He is venerating the mother of Jesus. Jesus honored His mother (unless you claim He broke one of the Commandments, to honor thy father and mother). On the Cross, Jesus gave Mary to mankind as our mother, too. We, too, honor her, like Jesus.
 

Behold

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No, he's not. He is venerating the mother of Jesus. Jesus honored His mother

The NT says...>"Mary is highly esteemed (highly favored) = among women"

The "cult of the Virgin" has falsely elevated Mary to "highly esteemed ABOVE everyone, other then Jesus"

So, that is a cult teaching.

If you get serious about researching The Pagan Goddess Diana, you'll find that she is a "perpetual virgin" and the "queen of Heaven".
 

Jude Thaddeus

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The NT says...>"Mary is highly esteemed (highly favored) = among women"

The "cult of the Virgin" has falsely elevated Mary to "highly esteemed ABOVE everyone, other then Jesus"

So, that is a cult teaching.
It's a Bible cult teaching, not Catholic teaching. It's contrary to what is officially taught in the catechism. If you cite the catechism, be sure to post a link to the page so I know you are not making stuff up like the way Bible cults do. Fashioning weapons from Scripture or the catechism to attack the Church who wrote it is a form of witchcraft, IMHO.
If you get serious about researching The Pagan Goddess Diana, you'll find that she is a "perpetual virgin" and the "queen of Heaven".

Exodus 20:16​

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
What you are implying is evil. You do it automatically without thinking.

Funny how anti-Catholics can't stay on topic, and carry on with an inflammatory anti-Mary animus when they can't contribute to the flow. . They do that out of an addiction to conflict, or simply lack manners.

The reformers themselves never taught your garbage about our Marian teachings; they accepted most of them. But I know the drill. "I don't follow the reformers, I follow the Bible". Ironically, that's the purest form of reformism.

I would rather invite you to my place for a bar-b-q but you will have to leave your axe at home.
 
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Behold

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Funny how anti-Catholics can't stay on topic,

As for me, im Anti-Catholic Doctrine.... when it opposes Paul's Doctrine.

Im Not Anti-Catholic cult members.

Many of my Favorite Believers are defined by the "cult of the Virgin" as Their Saints.
One of them, "Joan of Arc"... She was burned by Catholic Bishops, and later redefined as a Catholic Saint.

There are some "cult of the Virgin" historical figures that i personally deep appreciate, regarding their relationship to God..

I reject their Catholic Doctrine.....when it opposes Paul's Doctrine... but not their Spiritually.

I have a Thread here that discusses and highlights = "My Favorite Saints".... and most of them are Catholic.

Here are a few...

Hildegard of Bingen
Mary of Egypt
St. Francis
Bernard of Clairvaux
Jeanne Guyon
Angela of Foligno
Margeurite Porette

Also, the topic we are now discussing is "Mary worship", and so, that is related to "Catholic Doctrine". "cult of the Virgin".
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Also, the topic we are now discussing is "Mary worship", and so, that is related to "Catholic Doctrine". "cult of the Virgin".
"Mary worship", and so, that is related to "Catholic Doctrine" is wrong. Catholic doctrine forbids Mary worship. She is a creature, like us. We honor her because God honored her first.

We need to distinguish between how the word cult is used in Catholic theology and how it is used in the vernacular.
In the vernacular, the word cult refers to a person or group that uses psychological and emotional manipulation to control others.

But in Catholic theology the word cult is used to describe a particular form of worship. If a Catholic wishes to marry a non-Christian, the dispensation that is applied for is called “disparity of cult,” meaning that they have different methods of worship.

Within Catholicism there are different “cults” or liturgical forms and devotions. Any liturgical or prayer devotion centered around a particular saint is referred to as a cult. Therefore, the “cult of Mary” within Catholicism would refer simply to Marian devotion.

Liturgical forms and devotions have nothing to do with psychological and emotional manipulation.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Also, the topic we are now discussing is "Mary worship", and so, that is related to "Catholic Doctrine". "cult of the Virgin".
The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods; it means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This can lead to confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b).

A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.
Catholic Answers
 
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Augustin56

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As for me, im Anti-Catholic Doctrine.... when it opposes Paul's Doctrine.

Im Not Anti-Catholic cult members.

Many of my Favorite Believers are defined by the "cult of the Virgin" as Their Saints.
One of them, "Joan of Arc"... She was burned by Catholic Bishops, and later redefined as a Catholic Saint.

There are some "cult of the Virgin" historical figures that i personally deep appreciate, regarding their relationship to God..

I reject their Catholic Doctrine.....when it opposes Paul's Doctrine... but not their Spiritually.

I have a Thread here that discusses and highlights = "My Favorite Saints".... and most of them are Catholic.

Here are a few...

Hildegard of Bingen
Mary of Egypt
St. Francis
Bernard of Clairvaux
Jeanne Guyon
Angela of Foligno
Margeurite Porette

Also, the topic we are now discussing is "Mary worship", and so, that is related to "Catholic Doctrine". "cult of the Virgin".
Absolutely nothing in Catholic doctrine contradicts anything Paul taught. However, I'm sure there are lots of things in Catholic doctrine that contradict what you mistakenly think Paul taught, through your errant personal interpretation of Scripture. That doesn't put either the Church or Paul at odds with the truth. It puts you at odds with the truth.

What does the Bible say is the "pillar and foundation of truth?" Not the Bible. Not your personal interpretation of the Bible.

1 Tim 3:15 has the answer.

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

So, Paul says it is the CHURCH that is the "pillar and foundation of truth." Which Church would that be? Hmmm. Historically, there was but ONE Church when Paul wrote to Timothy. That is the Catholilc Church.
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Absolutely nothing in Catholic doctrine contradicts anything Paul taught. However, I'm sure there are lots of things in Catholic doctrine that contradict what you mistakenly think Paul taught, through your errant personal interpretation of Scripture. That doesn't put either the Church or Paul at odds with the truth. It puts you at odds with the truth.

What does the Bible say is the "pillar and foundation of truth?" Not the Bible. Not your personal interpretation of the Bible.

1 Tim 3:15 has the answer.

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

So, Paul says it is the CHURCH that is the "pillar and foundation of truth." Which Church would that be? Hmmm. Historically, there was but ONE Church when Paul wrote to Timothy. That is the Catholic Church.

CATHOLIC: Where did the word originate? It comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus.

It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is neccessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.

It is totally biblical. It is in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world." That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.

Rom. 1:8….and you belong to that Church whose faith St. Paul describes as being "proclaimed (KATAnggeletai) in the whole universe (en HOLO to kosmo)”

Thus the Greek word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8

Acts 9:31 "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied."

There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia KATAHOLIS"

Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8, Acts 9:31

But it was after Ignatius that the term Catholic Church became used more and more to designate the true church.

"Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 106 A.D.,

Undoubtedly the word was in use before the time of this writing.
St. Ignatius was the 3rd bishop of Antioch and knew St. John the Apostle.

"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled"​
Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 A.D. 155.

Other written records of the term "CATHOLIC" describing a character of the Christian Church:
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 202AD;
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 251AD;
Cyprian, Letter to Florentius, 254AD
Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.
 
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Brakelite

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ITS BIBLE TIME!
The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God’s true traditions). Corrupt pharisaic teachings were a bad tradition (but many of their legitimate teachings were recognized by Jesus; see, e.g., Matthew 23:3). The spoken gospel and the apostolic writings which eventually were formulated as Holy Scripture (authoritatively recognized by the Church in 397 A. D. at the council of Carthage) were altogether good: the authentic Christian tradition as revealed by the incarnate God to the apostles.

The Greek word for “tradition” in the New Testament is paradosis. It occurs in Colossians 2:8, and in the following three passages:



Note that St. Paul draws no qualitative distinction between written and oral tradition. He doesn’t regard oral Christian tradition as bad and undesirable. Rather, this false belief is, ironically, itself an unbiblical “tradition of men.”
by Dave Armstrong
The issue with tradition, and Jesus referenced this directly, was when tradition contradicts or makes of no effect the commandments of God. Are you satisfied that no Catholic tradition does that?
 

Augustin56

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The issue with tradition, and Jesus referenced this directly, was when tradition contradicts or makes of no effect the commandments of God. Are you satisfied that no Catholic tradition does that?
Brakelite, there are two types of "tradition" spoken of in the Bible. One is merely common customs. The other is Holy Tradition, which St. Paul refers to in 2 Thes. 2:15. Traditions in this sense means "teaching." St. Paul puts oral tradition (oral teaching) on a par with written tradition (Scripture) in 2 Thes. 2:15.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

The traditions we are referring to in the Catholic Church is the latter. Oral teachings of Christ given to the Apostles, who handed it on to their successors the bishops, who have done likewise for 2000 years now. This has nothing to do with common customs.
 

RedFan

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2Thessalonians 2:15,
- therefore brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught whether by word( oral) or by letter(written)

nice to meet you RedFan
You too. How do we know whether Paul is speaking of apostolic traditions here, or his own?
 

Titus

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You too. How do we know whether Paul is speaking of apostolic traditions here, or his own?
The only apostles were the ones we read in the Bible. Therefore those men are who Paul MUST
be referring to.

Notice what Pau says,
2Thessalonians 2:15,
- therefore brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught...


Paul says these traditions, those who taught them.

Who taught them? What doctrine(teaching) did the 1st. Century christians follow?

Acts 2:47,
-And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine...