Where is hell? Where is heaven?

[BarneyFife]

Speaking of figures of speech, what I did allow for was the possibility that there might be an interpretation of the final punishment of the wicked in Scripture that doesn't depict God as an unloving, horrifying monster. Just sayin'.

 

[amadeus]

1. How many lost souls are being punished in hell today?
“The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9).

Answer: There is not one single soul in hellfire today. The Bible says that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the day of judgment to be punished.

I am not really disagreeing with your posted answers but rather adding a bit more for consideration:

When is this day of judgment? When has time stopped or ended? When will time stop or end? What is meant by this?

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:" Rev 10:6

"Time no longer" for whom?

 

[BarneyFife]

Could it be that the "unjust" of II Peter 2:9 are not equal to the "ungodly" of Psalm 1:4-6?

Anything's possible, but only God is truly just (which is why we need Christ's perfect record of just living to cover our sins) and therefore all justice originates with God. I don't know what the difference between "ungodly" and "unjust" could possibly be but of course, and again, possibilities are not limited by my own conception.

 

[amadeus]

3. Where are the unsaved who have already died?
“The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28, 29).
“That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? … Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb” (Job 21:30, 32 KJV).

Answer: The Bible is specific. Both the unsaved and the saved who have died are in their graves “sleeping” until the resurrection day. (See Study Guide 10 for more information on what really happens at death.)

Who is the psalmist speaking about here?

"The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Psalm 1:4-6

Could it be that the "unjust" of II Peter 2:9 are not equal to the "ungodly" of Psalm 1:4-6?

Why should men who have never lived because they never received or acknowledged Jesus be judged? They were born dead to dead parents... Adam and Eve. Dead parents cannot produce living offspring.

 

[amadeus]

5. What will happen to the wicked in hellfire?
“The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

Answer: The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible because the Bible says God “alone has immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16). When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and “live forever” (Genesis 3:22–24). The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.

Who dies the second death? Anyone born of Adam and Eve or their offspring was in the eyes of God dead already when born to his/her natural mother. All he/she has had is a bit flesh with an unfulfilled hope which will go back to the dirt from which it came at the end his/her allotted time period. That is not the second death although men call it death.

What if the second death refers to someone who received the Life that Jesus brought and then walked away from God and back toward and into death?

 

[BarneyFife]

Why should men who have never lived because they never received or acknowledged Jesus be judged? They were born dead to dead parents... Adam and Eve. Dead parents cannot produce living offspring.

No one is entirely dead, spiritually, until they commit the unpardonable sin--resisting the Spirit until they can no longer hear His voice. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11). Is it not so?

 

[BarneyFife]

Who dies the second death? Anyone born of Adam and Eve or their offspring was in the eyes of God dead already when born to his/her natural mother. All he/she has had is a bit flesh with an unfulfilled hope which will go back to the dirt from which it came at the end his/her allotted time period. That is not the second death although men call it death.

What if the second death refers to someone who received the Life that Jesus brought and then walked away from God and back toward and into death?

Again, anything's possible. I'm not sure, but I think you may be thinking above my paygrade.

 

[amadeus]

6. When and how will hellfire be kindled?
“So it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will ... cast them into the furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:40–42).
“They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them” (Revelation 20:9).
“If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner” (Proverbs 11:31).

Answer: The Bible says that God will kindle hellfire. After the holy city comes down out of heaven (Revelation 21:2), the wicked will attempt to capture it. At that time, God will rain down fire from heaven upon the earth, and it will devour the wicked. This fire is Bible hellfire.

Everyone seemingly wants live, but Life is found by going through the fire to the Tree of Life [Jesus]. They want the special blessings of God as per Matt 5:2-15, but of course the way to those blessings is through the fire and then they will have a candle of fire... of Light... of Life!

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24

Man on his own also wants life and in his ways of flesh through his skills and his logical brain thinks it can get all he wants on his own. No lesson learned for most people at the tower of Babel or confusion or the ways of men. He cannot go through that fire unscathed. Carnal man will die in the fire, which the sword or Word of God.

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

And what of those prepared to go through the fire...but not alone?

"And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace" Dan 3:20-21

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Dan 3:25

 

[amadeus]

No one is entirely dead, spiritually, until they commit the unpardonable sin--resisting the Spirit until they can no longer hear His voice. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11). Is it not so?

They/we all had Hope! Adam and Eve had Hope. The Hope was/is Jesus, but those who failed to step out in faith to embrace that Hope had only death, which was already theirs. Their glimmer of Hope went out when they finished their course here without Jesus.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus

Sorry for the spam, John.

I enjoyed wading through it. As I said I am not opposed to it, even if I cannot fully embrace it. I strive to embrace God. How well am I able to see or hear Him?

 

[amadeus]

They/we all had Hope! Adam and Eve had Hope. The Hope was/is Jesus, but those who failed to step out in faith to embrace that Hope had only death, which was already theirs. Their glimmer of Hope went out when they finished their course here without Jesus.

"He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:8-9 [Notice this is Not speaking of being born again, but of our natural birth to our natural mothers.]

Jesus was the glimmer, the Hope, of every human being born to woman. That glimmer of the Light was our directional to Jesus who brought the Life which men lost when their first parents partook of the wrong tree:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

 

[amadeus]

Again, anything's possible. I'm not sure, but I think you may be thinking above my paygrade.

What does require to be moved up from the paygrade of a private to that of a general of the army? How about deepness of earth into good ground to bring forth good fruit?

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 13:3-9

 

[BarneyFife]

Everyone seemingly wants live, but Life is found by going through the fire to the Tree of Life [Jesus]. They want the special blessings of God as per Matt 5:2-15, but of course the way to those blessings is through the fire and then they will have a candle of fire... of Light... of Life!

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24

Man on his own also wants life and in his ways of flesh through his skills and his logical brain thinks it can get all he wants on his own. No lesson learned for most people at the tower of Babel or confusion or the ways of men. He cannot go through that fire unscathed. Carnal man will die in the fire, which the sword or Word of God.

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

And what of those prepared to go through the fire...but not alone?

"And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace" Dan 3:20-21

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Dan 3:25

You seem to be relating trial-like fire which comes to every follower of Christ to the fire which consumes the wicked. It is to me a paradox that is difficult to understand for many. Men cannot stand in the unveiled presence of God without first being perfected in love. This is why the Bible depicts hell as fire coming down from God out of heaven and devouring the wicked. All will experience the fire, but only those who have surrendered to God's will shall be able to bear it. No?

 

[amadeus]

You seem to be relating trial-like fire which comes to every follower of Christ to the fire which consumes the wicked. It is to me a paradox that is difficult to understand for many. Men cannot stand in the unveiled presence of God without first being perfected in love. This is why the Bible depicts hell as fire coming down from God out of heaven and devouring the wicked. All will experience the fire, but only those who have surrendered to God's will shall be able to bear it. No?

Amen! God has provided the means for us to go through the fire and Live, but "few there be that find it"! We are allowed time to get there... our allotted course as men here... but when we enter the fire will we be cleansed and purged and purified... or will we be burned up?

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." I Cor 3:11-15

Was the burning bush which Moses saw a type or shadow of what we may become?

"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I." Exodus 3:2-4

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[DNB]

Couldn't that apply to both sides of the argument?

Indeed, to some degree though*, and that may be where the controversy lies?
*I feel that the word 'death' can be interchangeable with an eternal demise, as a euphemism. But, on the other hand, I don't believe that expressions like 'where the worm never dies and the fire never quenches' (Mark 9:44), and '...depart from me into everlasting fire...' (Matthew 25:41), can be construed as figures of speech or metaphors, of a singular and decisive event? So, in some cases, one's hermeneutics that allow for literary devices may cause ambiguity in certain proof-texts, and I believe that these are largely on the annihilationist side (yes, I'm biased at the moment). Whereas, certain passages that support the eternal torment side, cannot be exegeted to mean either one or another, in consequence and duration.

 

[marksman]

Are not many people today effectively dead and in the grave in the eyes of God? All of us were there, but Jesus was sent into this place of death, this grave, this hell, this prison of ours and he preached to us. Some of us listened and are listening. Some of us have done something right with what we heard.

Jesus has visited me in my hell. He is helping me replace hell with heaven. Is he similarly helping you?

Where is hell? Being a member of the Demoncratic Party.

Where is heaven? Not being a member of the Demoncratic party.

 

[amadeus]

Where is hell? Being a member of the Demoncratic Party.

Where is heaven? Not being a member of the Demoncratic party.

For some your words might reflect a truth... but it is not always as simple as that, is it?

For example: for one person drinking just one bottle of beer leads him straight into the deepest pit of hell while for another person it less harmful than drinking a Coca Cola. [Of course drinking that one Coke may not be such a good thing either... but perhaps you take get point.]

 

[kcnalp]

How about loving God?

Same thing.

 

[kcnalp]

I don't know, maybe glorifying God? How sad...

Escaping Hell is sad???

 

[kcnalp]

@kcnalp

Post #232

Hell will be filled with those who don't believe in Hell!