Where is hell? Where is heaven?
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
But, although this may be too speculative, I'd be more prone to question my judgement on commensurate punishment, than to God's. That is, if we are removing the option of eternal punishment just for the sake of mercy, or tarnishing God's reputation.
I think that when the Books are opened on Judgement Day, and we see the true colours of one's heart that was veiled behind the 'benign' exterior, we will find God's judgement of wrath, to be just - to deny, or be insincere towards, God, is egregious.
More obvious though, what could possibly rectify the crimes of so many people i.e. those who corrupted or subverted the church, or the salvation of others (Matthew 23:13-14), the genocides, the infanticides (lost souls), the rapes and kidnappings, slave traders, pushers and pimps? Is annihilation actually just, or even merciful - to whom?
Again, I think that certain terms and expressions can work both ways, as far as the proof-text for annihilationism is concerned. But, in regard to hell-fire torment, in would require much more argumentation to make the same claim?
Matthew 8:11-12
8:11. "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12. but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:41-42
13:41. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42. and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49-50
13:49. "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50. and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13
22:13. "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:30
25:30. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:34, 41, 46
25:34. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ..... 41. "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;..... 46. "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43-48
9:43. "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44. [ where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45. "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46. [ where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47. "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48. where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
Luke 16:24-28
16:24. "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25. "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26. 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27. "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- 28. for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
1:5. This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7. and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8. dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10. when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
Revelation 14:9-11
14:9. Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10. he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 19:20-20
19:20. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10
20:10. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:14-15
20:14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8
21:8. "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Revelation 22:14-15
22:14. Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
The problem with this bulk of proof texts is that they all say the same thing about hell, none of which even allude to eternity.
Everlasting fire and punishment. Described elsewhere as “unquenchable fire” (see on ch. 3:12) and “hell fire” (see on ch. 5:22). All three refer to the fires of the last day that will devour the wicked and all their works (2 Peter 3:10–12; Rev. 20:10, 14, 15).
The word aiōnios, translated “everlasting,” or “eternal,” once, “for ever,” means literally, “lasting for an age,” in the sense of being continuous and not subject to capricious change. The ancient Greek papyri contain numerous examples of Roman emperors being described as aiōnios. The reference is to the continuous nature of their tenure—they held office for life. It is thus clear that the English words “everlasting” and “eternal” do not accurately reflect the meaning of aiōnios. Aiōnios, literally, “age lasting,” expresses permanence or perpetuity within limits; “everlasting” and “eternal” imply duration unlimited. The duration signified by aiōnios must, in each case, be determined by the nature of the person or thing it describes. In the case of Tiberius Caesar, for instance, aiōnios describes a period of 23 years, that is, the time from his ascent to the throne until his death.
In the NT aiōnios is used to describe both the fate of the wicked and the future state of the righteous. Following the principle stated above, that the durative quality of aiōnios is to be determined by the person or thing of which it is used, we find that the reward of the righteous is life to which there is no end; the reward of the wicked is death to which there is no end (John 3:16; Rom. 6:23; etc.). In John 3:16 “everlasting life” is contrasted with “perish.” In 2 Thess 1:9 the wicked are said to be “punished with everlasting destruction.” The expression does not signify a process that goes on forever, but an act whose results are permanent.
“Fire” is the means by which punishment for sin is inflicted (Matt. 18:8; 25:41). That “fire” is “everlasting,” aiōnios, does not signify that it is of endless duration. This is clear from Jude 7. Obviously the “eternal fire” that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah burned for a time and then went out. Elsewhere, the Scriptures refer to the fires of the last day as
“unquenchable” (Matt. 3:12), meaning that they will not be extinguished until they have burned up the last vestiges of sin and sinners (see on v. 12). For ‘olam, the OT equivalent of aiōnios, see Ex. 21:6.
Worm. Gr. skōlēx, “a maggot,” or “a worm.” As Major, Manson, and Wright (The Mission and Message of Jesus, p. 123) comment, “The undying worm is not the symbol of a soul which cannot die, but is the symbol of corruption which cannot be purged.” In v. 43 “life” is set forth in contrast with “the fire that never shall be quenched.” In Rom. 6:23 and many other scriptures “life” stands in contrast with “death.” In John 3:16 the contrast is between “everlasting life” and “perishing.” It is obvious that Jesus here intends the same contrast. “The fire is not quenched” stands in apposition to “their worm dieth not,” and is an equivalent expression, yet it seems incongruous that maggots should pursue their work in the presence of fire. There is nothing in the word skōlēx, “worm,” that even remotely justifies the popular explanation equating “worm” with “soul” (see on Isa. 66:24), a fact recognized by almost all commentators, whatever they may think personally about the state of man in death.
You do not believe God sees a difference between people who focus on escaping hell more than or instead of on loving Him? Did Jesus focus more on escaping the suffering and death more than pleasing God?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's just amazing. A god who wants to scare me into loving him is a god for which I have no use. Either he made me the wrong way or the whole thing (life) is just a ribbing. None for me thanks, I'm driving.
God is love. Not terrorist. Amen?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Like all other parables, that of the Rich Man and Lazarus must be interpreted in harmony with its context and with the general tenor of Scripture. One of the most important principles of interpretation here is that each parable was designed to teach one fundamental truth, and that the details of the parable need not necessarily have significance in themselves, except as "props" for the story. In other words, the details of a parable must not be pressed as having a literal meaning in terms of spiritual truth unless the context makes clear that such a meaning is intended. Out of this principle grows another—that it is not wise to use the details of a parable to teach doctrine. Only the fundamental teaching of a parable as clearly set forth in its context and confirmed by the general tenor of Scripture, together with details explained in the context itself, may legitimately be considered a basis for doctrine. See pp. 203, 204. The contention that Jesus intended this parable to teach that men, whether good or bad, receive their rewards at death violates both of these principles.
As clearly set forth in the context (see above), this parable was designed to teach that future destiny is determined by the use men make of the opportunities of this present life. Jesus was not discussing either the state of man in death or the time when rewards will be passed out; He was simply drawing a clear distinction between this life and the next and showing the relationship of each to the other. Furthermore, to interpret this parable as teaching that men receive their rewards immediately at death clearly contradicts Jesus‘ own declaration that ―the Son of man shall ... reward every man according to his works when He ―shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels (see on Matt. 16:27; 25:31–41; cf. 1 Cor. 15:51–55; 1 Thess. 4:16, 17; Rev. 22:12; etc.). It is one of the most important rules of interpretation that figurative expressions and narratives are to be understood in terms of the literal statements of Scripture concerning the truths referred to. Even those who attempt to force this parable into a pattern of interpretation that teaches contrary to the immediate context and to the general tenor of Christ‘s teachings concede that many of the details of the parable are figurative (see on vs. 22–26).
It may then properly be asked, ―Why would Jesus introduce into a parable figurative illustrations that do not accurately represent truth as clearly set forth elsewhere in the Scriptures, and particularly in His own literal statements? The answer is that He was meeting people on their own ground. Many in the audience—without the least OT Scriptural reason for doing so—had come to believe in the doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection. This erroneous belief, which does not appear in the OT, pervades post-exilic Jewish literature in general, and like many other traditional beliefs, had become a part of Judaism by the time of Jesus (see on Mark 7:7–13). In this parable Jesus simply made use of a popular belief in order thereby to make forcibly clear an important lesson He sought to plant in the minds of His hearers. It may also be noted that in the preceding parable, that of the Dishonest Steward (Luke 16:1–12), Jesus neither commended nor approved of the dishonest steward‘s course of action, although that action constitutes the main part of the story (see on v. 8).
Even the modernist International Critical Commentary comments as follows on v. 22: "The general principle is maintained that bliss and misery after death are determined by conduct previous to death; but the details of the picture are taken from Jewish beliefs as to the condition of souls in Sheol [see on Prov. 15:11], and must not be understood as confirming those beliefs."
Sometimes attention is called to the fact that Jesus does not state that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, at least apparently in so far as Luke‘s account goes (although one ancient manuscript [D] does call it a parable), whereas, elsewhere parables are usually so labeled (Matt. 13:3, 24, 33, 44, 45, 47). But it should be pointed out that although Jesus usually introduced a parable either by stating that it was a parable or by saying that the kingdom of heaven was like a person or a thing in the specific circumstances He then proceeded to relate, He did not always do so (see Luke 15:8, 11; 16:1 for examples). The same is true of various OT parables such as those of Judges 9:8–15 and 2 Kings 14:9, yet no one professes to believe that because these parables are not clearly labeled as such they are to be taken literally. The fallacy of such an argument is rendered obvious by a mere reading of the few references cited.
(To Be Cont'd)
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
(Cont'd)
Abraham’s bosom. A typically Jewish idiom, meaning ―paradise. The Talmud (Kiddushim 72a; in Soncino ed., p. 369) mentions ―Abraham‘s lap as a place of the blessed dead. On another occasion Jesus spoke of paradise as a place where ―many would ―come from the east and west and ―sit down with Abraham at the feast of ―the kingdom of heaven (see on Matt. 8:11; Luke 14:15).
On Jesus being ―in the bosom of the Father see on John 1:18. On leaning on the bosom of someone while reclining at a feast see on John 13:23. Abraham was the father of the Jews (see John 8:39, 56), and they had practically come to look to him for salvation in place of God (see on Luke 16:24). They conceived of Abraham as welcoming his children to paradise, as, in much the same way, Peter is sometimes now represented as greeting Christians at the gate of heaven.
Was buried. Those who hold that this narrative is literal, and not a parable, should note that if the rich man is literally and bodily in torment, then Lazarus was borne to heaven literally and bodily. However, the bodies of both Lazarus and the rich man returned to the dust, whence they had come (see Gen. 2:7; 3:19; Eccl. 12:7).
Hell. Gr. hadēs. ―grave, or ―death (see on Matt. 11:23). Hadēs is the abode of all men, good and bad, until the resurrection. Literally, Lazarus would be there also.
His eyes. The body of the rich man, now in hades, is lifeless. He cannot see (see on v. 24). Torments. Gr. basanoi, related to the verb basanizō, which is used of persons suffering intensely from disease (Matt. 8:6), of the tossing of the waves of the sea (Matt. 14:24), and of the disciples ―toiling at the oars (Mark 6:48). It is also used of emotional stress (2 Peter 2:8), and of the ―torment evil spirits feared when brought face to face with Jesus (Matt 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28). Basanos (singular of basanoi) thus seems to indicate acute distress or agitation.
The idea that at death men go to a place where they suffer ―torments is utterly foreign to the Scriptures, which teach plainly that ―the dead know not any thing‖ (Eccl. 9:5; see on Ps. 146:4). Jesus Himself compared death to a sleep (see John 11:11, 14). To conclude from this parable that Jesus was teaching that at death the wicked are taken to a place where they undergo ―torments is to make Him here contradict His plain teachings on that subject upon other occasions, as well as the teachings of the Bible as a whole. It is in the ―hell of gehenna that sinners are to experience fiery torments (see on Matt. 5:22), not in hadēs. When Jesus therefore presented the rich man as a ―tormented in this flame (Luke 16:24), in hadēs, He is clearly speaking figuratively, and it is unwarranted to interpret His words literally. See on v. 19 for principles of interpretation involved in the explanation of parables.
Seeth Abraham. Can it be that heaven and hell are within speaking distance, and that those in heaven witness the suffering of friends and loved ones in hell without being able to alleviate their torment, while those in hell can observe the bliss of the righteous in heaven? Yet this is precisely what this parable teaches if it is to be taken literally (see on v. 19). But those who believe it is literal will hasten to add that ―Abraham‘s bosom is only a figure of speech, that the saints are not literally all resting in his ―bosom. And they will also declare that the proximity of heaven and hell, here pictured, is also purely figurative. But the moment they admit that these and other obviously figurative portions of the parable are not to be taken literally, they concede the figurative character of the entire parable. If they are unwilling to admit that the entire parable is figurative, they are forced to concede that their decision as to whether one part is or is not to be taken figuratively is simply a matter of their own arbitrary choice, and not based on any clearly defined and consistent principle of interpretation.
Tip of his finger. Those who seek to find in this parable a support for the false doctrine of immortal, disembodied souls, find here embarrassment instead. As if disembodied spirits have ―fingers! Lazarus‘ body was in the grave, and therefore his fingers were also in the grave. It is incredible that one disembodied spirit should take a finger, which it is not supposed to have, dip it in water, and then touch the nonexistent tongue of another disembodied spirit. Obviously, Jesus is relating an imaginative story designed to make clear a certain particular truth concerning the relationship between this life and the next (see on v. 19), and does not intend His words to be taken literally. To the rich man, now figuratively suffering in hades, the least alleviation of his ―torments would be graciously accepted. The rich man now longs for a drop of clear, cool water asLazarus formerly desired the scraps from his table (see on v. 21). If the rich man had―eyes (v. 23) and a ―tongue (v. 24), and Lazarus had a ―finger (v. 24), it would necessitate the teaching that immediately at death good and bad men go to their rewards as real beings with bodily parts! However, that they do not immediately go to their rewards at death is obvious from the parable itself—their bodies were in the grave, where there is no such thing as fire (see on v. 22).
Abraham’s bosom. A typically Jewish idiom, meaning ―paradise. The Talmud (Kiddushim 72a; in Soncino ed., p. 369) mentions ―Abraham‘s lap as a place of the blessed dead. On another occasion Jesus spoke of paradise as a place where ―many would ―come from the east and west and ―sit down with Abraham at the feast of ―the kingdom of heaven (see on Matt. 8:11; Luke 14:15).
On Jesus being ―in the bosom of the Father see on John 1:18. On leaning on the bosom of someone while reclining at a feast see on John 13:23. Abraham was the father of the Jews (see John 8:39, 56), and they had practically come to look to him for salvation in place of God (see on Luke 16:24). They conceived of Abraham as welcoming his children to paradise, as, in much the same way, Peter is sometimes now represented as greeting Christians at the gate of heaven.
Was buried. Those who hold that this narrative is literal, and not a parable, should note that if the rich man is literally and bodily in torment, then Lazarus was borne to heaven literally and bodily. However, the bodies of both Lazarus and the rich man returned to the dust, whence they had come (see Gen. 2:7; 3:19; Eccl. 12:7).
Hell. Gr. hadēs. ―grave, or ―death (see on Matt. 11:23). Hadēs is the abode of all men, good and bad, until the resurrection. Literally, Lazarus would be there also.
His eyes. The body of the rich man, now in hades, is lifeless. He cannot see (see on v. 24). Torments. Gr. basanoi, related to the verb basanizō, which is used of persons suffering intensely from disease (Matt. 8:6), of the tossing of the waves of the sea (Matt. 14:24), and of the disciples ―toiling at the oars (Mark 6:48). It is also used of emotional stress (2 Peter 2:8), and of the ―torment evil spirits feared when brought face to face with Jesus (Matt 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28). Basanos (singular of basanoi) thus seems to indicate acute distress or agitation.
The idea that at death men go to a place where they suffer ―torments is utterly foreign to the Scriptures, which teach plainly that ―the dead know not any thing‖ (Eccl. 9:5; see on Ps. 146:4). Jesus Himself compared death to a sleep (see John 11:11, 14). To conclude from this parable that Jesus was teaching that at death the wicked are taken to a place where they undergo ―torments is to make Him here contradict His plain teachings on that subject upon other occasions, as well as the teachings of the Bible as a whole. It is in the ―hell of gehenna that sinners are to experience fiery torments (see on Matt. 5:22), not in hadēs. When Jesus therefore presented the rich man as a ―tormented in this flame (Luke 16:24), in hadēs, He is clearly speaking figuratively, and it is unwarranted to interpret His words literally. See on v. 19 for principles of interpretation involved in the explanation of parables.
Seeth Abraham. Can it be that heaven and hell are within speaking distance, and that those in heaven witness the suffering of friends and loved ones in hell without being able to alleviate their torment, while those in hell can observe the bliss of the righteous in heaven? Yet this is precisely what this parable teaches if it is to be taken literally (see on v. 19). But those who believe it is literal will hasten to add that ―Abraham‘s bosom is only a figure of speech, that the saints are not literally all resting in his ―bosom. And they will also declare that the proximity of heaven and hell, here pictured, is also purely figurative. But the moment they admit that these and other obviously figurative portions of the parable are not to be taken literally, they concede the figurative character of the entire parable. If they are unwilling to admit that the entire parable is figurative, they are forced to concede that their decision as to whether one part is or is not to be taken figuratively is simply a matter of their own arbitrary choice, and not based on any clearly defined and consistent principle of interpretation.
Tip of his finger. Those who seek to find in this parable a support for the false doctrine of immortal, disembodied souls, find here embarrassment instead. As if disembodied spirits have ―fingers! Lazarus‘ body was in the grave, and therefore his fingers were also in the grave. It is incredible that one disembodied spirit should take a finger, which it is not supposed to have, dip it in water, and then touch the nonexistent tongue of another disembodied spirit. Obviously, Jesus is relating an imaginative story designed to make clear a certain particular truth concerning the relationship between this life and the next (see on v. 19), and does not intend His words to be taken literally. To the rich man, now figuratively suffering in hades, the least alleviation of his ―torments would be graciously accepted. The rich man now longs for a drop of clear, cool water asLazarus formerly desired the scraps from his table (see on v. 21). If the rich man had―eyes (v. 23) and a ―tongue (v. 24), and Lazarus had a ―finger (v. 24), it would necessitate the teaching that immediately at death good and bad men go to their rewards as real beings with bodily parts! However, that they do not immediately go to their rewards at death is obvious from the parable itself—their bodies were in the grave, where there is no such thing as fire (see on v. 22).
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
This simply means termination of life with no possibility of resurrection.
And how can one who is alive and suffering eternal torment escape from the presence of the LORD?
This indicates no time frame for the suffering of final punishment.
The term "forever" is used 56 times in the King James Bible in connection with things that have already ended.* It is like the word “tall,” which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, “forever” means “three days and nights.” In Deuteronomy 23:3, it means 10 generations. In the case of mankind, it means “as long as he lives” or “until death.” (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The unbiblical teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.
*To check in a concordance, look up the word “ever.”
Why use a proof text that expressly indicates cessation of life?
And, again, no time frame.
Again, COL; NTF
NTF, and doesn't even mention hell or punishment.
This is apparently a state in time before executive judgment (hellfire), or some metaphorical statement.
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Heaven is a place of peace, love, community, and worship, where God is surrounded by a heavenly court and other heavenly beings. Biblical authors imagined the earth as a flat place with Sheol below (the realm of the dead) and a dome over the earth that separates it from the heavens or sky above.
Hell is is a ‘place’ of eternal and extreme anguish where your soul, which is eternal, will endure. Hell is total separation from God and anything that is good or lovely is missing, it is a place where only darkness and pure evil exist.
Hell is is a ‘place’ of eternal and extreme anguish where your soul, which is eternal, will endure. Hell is total separation from God and anything that is good or lovely is missing, it is a place where only darkness and pure evil exist.
What do you do with this verse?
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezek 18:4
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
If the soul is eternal it cannot, by simple logic, be totally separated from God.
Psalm 139
7) Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8) If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
7) Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8) If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
What power actuates these enduring, separated souls? The same power that destroys them?
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
1 Timothy 6
15) which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16) Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
1 Timothy 6
15) which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16) Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
You seem to be raising questions I've already answered. No sweat, though. Let's review:
8. How long will the wicked suffer in the fire?
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).
“He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).
“That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few” (Luke 12:47, 48).
Answer: The Bible does not tell us how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. God does specifically state, however, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive longer punishment than others, based upon their works.
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).
“He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).
“That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few” (Luke 12:47, 48).
Answer: The Bible does not tell us how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. God does specifically state, however, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive longer punishment than others, based upon their works.
My apologies BF, i really needed to explain the passages that I chose, before just throwing them onto a post.
I am also a long time ardent believer that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is allegorical - the plot is entirely fabricated, and even implausible, in order to convey a spiritual message. Not to mention, the context of Jesus citing this story was not eschatological but more imminent - the time is now to repent, there will not be another chance after death.
But, without controversy, there are factual aspects about some of the logistics: clearly the separation of the sheep and goats, and, in my opinion, the notion of peace for the righteous and torment for the wicked. Now, arguably, I may seem to be cherry-picking which part of the allegory is fallacious, and which is not, for, on another note, I definitely do not believe that anyone is currently in heaven until after Judgment Day, except for Christ. So, maybe this was not definitively a proof-text for the perpetual suffering of the lost, but, again, since there must be some veracity to Jesus' scenario in order for any of it to be taken seriously, I would assert that the two aspects that are factual, are the demarcation between the good and bad, and the eternal consciousness of both.
No, sorry BF, you've mismanaged the context of these expressions. Yes, aiōnios must be interpreted contextually, but due to where it is used in both the Gospels and Revelation, being juxtaposed with the fate of the righteous versus the wicked, the context clearly dictates it significance as perpetual. In other words, within the same verse, you inconsistently gave it two different meanings.
Fire does in fact imply duration, because nothing can be extinguished instantly with fire. For, it takes time to both envelop the entire substance that it is burning, and time to disintegrate it into ashes, and thus, the analogy. Otherwise, one might think that the torture of fire was the actual punishment before perishing, which is antithetical to God's sense of justice - crimes of the heart are not punished corporeally. Neither is 15 minutes in the flames commensurate to the wickedness that these men have perpetrated - stealing people's souls. One might say that the only just punishment would be to constantly remind them of what they have lost, which was offered so freely - again, punishing themselves.
The analogous use of fire conveys both torment, and duration, not instantaneous annihilation. Especially, 'unquenchable' fire. I don't believe that this term is used to denote decisive or final, for what use is a half burnt body anyhow, that is just as final as an unquenchable flame. Fire is fire, it is destructive once it touches any other material, and it usually, for all practical purposes, destroys beyond use, instantly. Thus, there is a distinct emphasis and significance on the use of unquenchable, for fire does not need to be continuous in order to render useless, or to result in death.
Again, I disagree with your take on the analogous use of worms ands maggots. To me, these expressions signify death, as much as referencing vultures does the same thing - where the body dies, there the vultures will gather. This is entirely synonymous with 'where there is rotting and death, maggots will appear'. So, maggots, as with vultures, are merely symbolic of death, nothing more. But, when a state of being is described as 'where the worm never dies', we are now defining a perpetual state of decay.
...listen, by the way, I have to complement you on your excellent thesis, it is extremely well written, very comprehensive, well thought-out, and very compelling. I have not come close to adequately addressing all the points that you made, although I believe that there is some weight to what I have already stated so far. Either way, you're making me reconsider things, for sure.
The particular passages that I chose from Revelation, collectively, are referring or alluding to the 2nd death, that when the fire never ends.
When you interpret these passages they way that you do, i.e. the fire is the catalyst to their abrupt destruction, you make it out to be both, a literal fire, and two, a torturous means to an end. Thus, all their crimes, defiance, and nefarious ways are being dealt with through the infliction of fire to their bodies. This, is making God out to be a sadist, ....not to mention unwise in His enactment of justice - where's the 'punishment fits the crime' element?
All these verses do describe burning in the Lake of Fire with Brimstone, so that again, it either conveys a time lapse required to burn a body, and all the implications of both time and torture, or a figurative use of continuous anguish and resentment. One, I think, would need to be more explicit if two corollaries were not identical in their attributes. '..one to eternal life, one to eternal death...'.
and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (juxtaposition of eternal life and fire)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
But in taking the position you have taken, aren't you assuming that God is bound by the constraints of sciences that He, Himself conceived, constructed, and sustains?
Is it a hard thing for the Sovereign of the universe to mete out just punishment to the lost while keeping them alive long enough to suffer exactly according to their own commensurate guilt?
Or, taking the omniscience and omnipotence of God a little farther, could He not somehow impose on the wicked any amount of suffering He pleases in a split second? The possibilities of the working out of God's will are limitless, aren't they?
And wouldn't a more sensible juxtaposition be that of between life and death, rather than "eternal life and fire," as long as we're merely speculating--not simply observing actual conveyance?
And, finally, how can the term "eternal death" mean, instead, eternal life in anguish and resentment?
:)
