WHERE IS TRUTH?

[stunnedbygrace]

I have struggled with all this. I do not think we are born with eternal life within us. It says, and then (after the fall) Adam had a son born in HIS own image. But I think we make assumptions that are inaccurate with verses. And yet, satan seems to have eternity and, terrifyingly, some men will be in outer darkness for eternity, but even that I am not certain of, but it says hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and nowhere do I read the outer darkness will be thrown there.

But satan does seem to have eternity by what I read, though I don’t know how it’s possible.

But I believe there is an age of accountability because David knew he would see his baby again.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Law is a beautiful thing, and did not condone generational slavery

So how many Mosaic Law regulated Hebrew and Pagan slaves?

immorality, nor did it sanction polygamy as the ideal

There are things permitted with in the Mosaic Law that are considered immoral by Christian standards. The Mosaic Law permitted a father to sell his daughter as a sex slave....concubinage....and the Mosaic Law never condemned polygamy in any way and God took credit for David's wives....in their culture the more wives and children that a man had, showed the favor of God. Now depending on how you read it, God did not condone the king's harem....but that could be hundreds.

And when they killed all those women (thousands) that were not virgins, you know how they determined that in the field?

Such laws were given with the understanding that people are flawed and need to operate in the culture they are dealt, assuming it is not unholy. The hope was to establish a workable standard for imperfect men who wanted to live in covenant with God. As such, it was a divine Law, and worthy of observance by the Hebrews of that time.

It was the general consensus that the Mosaic Law was a burden that no man could bare. An understanding that still remains with Jews today.

I don't separate Paul and James into separate categories. There's no basis for that except that we all have our own individual callings, our own individual mission territories.

In correct. The Jewish Christians still observed the Saturday Jewish sabbath...and kept the Mosaic Law, which is one the reasons that polygamy did not stop among Christians. And the Jewish Christians were among the judaizers that dogged Paul's ministry. The Jewish Christians sect died out with the twelve Apostles very early in Christian history. No Jewish Christian writing survived the 1st
century. No known Jewish Christian representatives in the Ecumenical Councils.

At one time being Jewish was critical to being under the national covenant between God and Israel. But nationality no longer plays any role. God's plan has always been to begin with Israel, and then to reach out to all nations.

God's plan for the Pagan were kill all that breaths. Find in the OT were God planned to form a covenant with Pagans, that is covenant. Part of the Mosaic Law forbid any treaty or agreements with Pagan nations.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And there are some Voss that say, I gave you some laws that were not good for you. And also, that a law was given because of the hardness of their hearts, not because God saw it as good.

 

[Grailhunter]

There are 2 ways to interpret Communion, with a "mystical' interpretation or with a "symbolic" interpretation. It doesn't consist of just reading this. It consists of your presumption of what Jesus meant to say.

The problem is that this is a relatively large body of scriptures that are very clear that also described the reaction of those that heard Christ words. Those that he was talking to did not continue the conversation. His own Apostles reacted to it negatively. His disciples that followed Him, walked with Him no more. Christ thought that this was so important that He was willing to risk His ministry over it. It is no small thing to disregard because it came with a warning from Christ's own lips.
He told them if they did not do this, that they had no life in them....That He did not abide in them....and depending on how you read it, that He would not raise them on the last day. What would it be like to be Saved but have no life in you? What would it be like to be Saved and not be raised on the last day.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?"

When we do not take Christ at His Word....is that faith?

When questioning and analyzing the spiritual significance and meaning of belief, faith, repentance, baptism, and communion, is that faith? Is that a follower of Christ? Should we question if certain things that Christ said are necessary, is that putting ourselves above Christ? What I question is, if you do not believe what Christ and the Apostles said about the effects of baptism and communion, are they any benefit to you.

The words about communion are not my words, they are Christ's Words, disregard them if you wish. Send us a postcard telling us how it turned out for you.

 

[fellow]

I have struggled with all this. I do not think we are born with eternal life within us. It says, and then (after the fall) Adam had a son born in HIS own image. But I think we make assumptions that are inaccurate with verses. And yet, satan seems to have eternity and, terrifyingly, some men will be in outer darkness for eternity, but even that I am not certain of, but it says hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and nowhere do I read the outer darkness will be thrown there.

But Satan does seem to have eternity by what I read, though I don’t know how it’s possible.

Cain was the son of the devil.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Satan and his children will burn in hell.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is the letter. It is the Spirit that will avail a man. The letter can actually do the opposite if a man condemns another man for doing outwardly what he himself does in spirit, in his heart. Your average Christian is, in fact, a murderer, but often doesn’t yet know it. If he continues to trust, God will show him when he is ready to bear it.

I call this circle talk.
Think about what you say....will it lead people down the wrong path?....will you be standing in front of Christ on Judgment Day having to answer for damned souls? See I do not have to worry about this. I say if you are a Christian and want to go to heaven, Beeee Goood. You cannot go wrong with that advise.

It is not our place to judge the sinner to hell. 1st John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
We are to recognize the sins of people and confront them. We are not to tolerate of sinful people but to only show them the error of their ways.

 

[Grailhunter]

The average Christian is a murderer? Uh, no! ;)

We all have a sin nature, but that doesn't make us murderers. Even if we are guilty of some form of murder, all sin can be forgiven. But the standard for the Christian life is certainly not murder!

I said the average Christian is not a murderer and also...
Your average Christian is not going to make a life out of drugs.
Your average Christian is not going to be an abortion doctor or staff.
Your average Christian is not going to be a serial killer.
Your average Christian is not gong to be a child molester.
Your average Christian is not going to get involved with the occult.

 

[Grailhunter]

Anger in your heart is to have already murdered. It is hard to hear, but if you are able to accept it, it is true.

Sins of the heart is a topic in itself. But it is not hate to be intolerant of sin.

men judge by the outward appearance (the outside of the cup)but God judges the motives and motions of the heart (the inside of the cup.)

Yes that is all we can do and it is the correct thing to do. Christ will judge the inside of the cup on Judgment Day. Homosexuals are the outside of the cup...really do not care about their hearts. We condemn the sin, Christ will sort out the hearts on Judgment day.
It all comes down to Judgment Day where Christ takes all things into consideration. How many times will Christ forgive us? What horrible sins that He will not forgive? Not for us to decide. But if you make sins a lifestyle...you have signed your own warrant.

 

[Grailhunter]

@stunnedbygrace @Randy Kluth
We have gotten of a little off topic....which is alright. Good topics, if you would like to start a thread I would be happy to join you in a discussion.

I do not get into sins of the heart because we do not have a meter for that. And ultimately it becomes a double edge sword, for sinner or not.

A homosexual my come to Christ and repent and be saved just like everyone else. Equal with all. Now he or she may have homosexuality in their mind and heart, but I do not believe that is a sin, as long as they abstain. And just like any other Christian, if they "mess up" occasionally, forgiveness is their's just like any other Christian. Nor is it wrong to confront them on their sins, just like any other Christian. Christ is not stupid. He knows that we are going to sin, but is it too much to ask that we learn from our mistakes?

 

[amigo de christo]

I call this circle talk.
Think about what you say....will it lead people down the wrong path?....will you be standing in front of Christ on Judgment Day having to answer for damned souls? See I do not have to worry about this. I say if you are a Christian and want to go to heaven, Beeee Goood. You cannot go wrong with that advise.

It is not our place to judge the sinner to hell. 1st John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
We are to recognize the sins of people and confront them. We are not to tolerate of sinful people but to only show them the error of their ways.

We sure are . paul when writing to both titus and timothy and other churches said to CORRECT .
He even told titus those who sin REBUKE before ALL that others may also fear .
This non correcting church age , IS the reason WHY the churches have leavened so full . A lil leaven left uncorrected
will grow into a moutain . Folks are never gonna convince me not to correct brethren that err . Wont be happening .

 

[Randy Kluth]

Anger in your heart is to have already murdered. It is hard to hear, but if you are able to accept it, it is true.
And yes, all sin can be forgiven, so the true danger is in condemning someone who does outwardly what you do hiddenly, because that is called hypocrisy, telling others not to do what you yourself do.

men judge by the outward appearance (the outside of the cup)but God judges the motives and motions of the heart (the inside of the cup.)

If there is no difference between a Christian and a murderer, time to go home!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes they are and every person used this style and I gave examples.

Quoting Jesus on the Eucharist is not "example" of his dealing with extremes on Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation!

 

[Grailhunter]

Quoting Jesus on the Eucharist is not "example" of his dealing with extremes on Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation!

Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation and trying to figure the substance of God are not extremes or middle or anything. They are man speculating on things that they cannot not prove or maybe comprehend. Christ said to do it....I did it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So how many Mosaic Law regulated Hebrew and Pagan slaves?

Pagans have always been dealt with by God as pagans. They are blind to the truth, and weren't dealt with in the same way God dealt with Israel, who had the Law, and knew better.

There are things permitted with in the Mosaic Law that are considered immoral by Christian standards.

False, God didn't propose a single immoral law! Shame on you for suggesting that. You are engaging in cultural relativism. You are prescribing morality by your own upbringing, rather than by God's truth.

God never said that slavery or polygamy was His ideal. And yet, this is the world we live in, and it needs to be regulated, if indeed the "evils" you speak of are not "evil" at all, but are only the unfortunate consequence of human failure. To have slaves is not "evil." But to say God prefers human slavery is indeed "evil."

The Mosaic Law permitted a father to sell his daughter as a sex slave....concubinage....and the Mosaic Law never condemned polygamy in any way and God took credit for David's wives....in their culture the more wives and children that a man had, showed the favor of God. Now depending on how you read it, God did not condone the king's harem....but that could be hundreds.

Concubinage was not a "sex slave" as we understand the term today. She was treated more as a wife than as a prostitute.

And when they killed all those women (thousands) that were not virgins, you know how they determined that in the field?

I know you're badmouthing God and His Law. I've had just about my fill of your trash. You need to see things in their context, rather than read evil back into cultural practices when those who were ignorant could only be killed or controlled.

It was the general consensus that the Mosaic Law was a burden that no man could bare. An understanding that still remains with Jews today.

On the contrary, God expected Israel to keep the Law. What could not be "endured" was the attempt to find eternal life by keeping the Law. The Law continually exposed man's Sin Nature, which is the very thing that prevented him from having eternal life.

God's plan for the Pagan were kill all that breaths. Find in the OT were God planned to form a covenant with Pagans, that is covenant. Part of the Mosaic Law forbid any treaty or agreements with Pagan nations.

On the contrary, God showed that the only way to eternal life was through obedience to His Law. We should not think that murderers, thieves, and immoral people have a future to depend on. They either die or repent. And God is very patient in the process, if there is hope at all.

 

[Grailhunter]

Pagans have always been dealt with by God as pagans. They are blind to the truth, and weren't dealt with in the same way God dealt with Israel, who had the Law, and knew better.

Are you thinking on taking in some Pagans for slaves any time soon?

False, God didn't propose a single immoral law! Shame on you for suggesting that. You are engaging in cultural relativism. You are prescribing morality by your own upbringing, rather than by God's truth.

Planning on selling your daughter as a sex slave? Ahhhh! What will Christ think?

God never said that slavery or polygamy was His ideal.

You think that God made a comment on that?

Concubinage was not a "sex slave" as we understand the term today. She was treated more as a wife than as a prostitute.

Nope! Wives and concubines were treated as property, but concubine were purchased as sex slaves...there is no example in the Bible or history of labor concubines.

I know you're badmouthing God and His Law. I've had just about my fill of your trash. You need to see things in their context, rather than read evil back into cultural practices when those who were ignorant could only be killed or controlled.

God is truth, He is not insulted by it.

God expected Israel to keep the Law

Correct.

What could not be "endured" was the attempt to find eternal life by keeping the Law. The Law continually exposed man's Sin Nature, which is the very thing that prevented him from having eternal life.

Eternal life was never offered or possible in the Old Testament. Ya want to talk about Enoch and Elijah?

On the contrary, God showed that the only way to eternal life was through obedience to His Law. We should not think that murderers, thieves, and immoral people have a future to depend on. They either die or repent. And God is very patient in the process, if there is hope at all.

Do you have a point with this?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I have struggled with all this. I do not think we are born with eternal life within us. It says, and then (after the fall) Adam had a son born in HIS own image. But I think we make assumptions that are inaccurate with verses. And yet, satan seems to have eternity and, terrifyingly, some men will be in outer darkness for eternity, but even that I am not certain of, but it says hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and nowhere do I read the outer darkness will be thrown there.

But satan does seem to have eternity by what I read, though I don’t know how it’s possible.

Anionios and Satan cannot be found in a verse. Satan and his demons are thrown into the Lake of Fire with Hades and Death. Why would God even sustain His suffering? Eliminating sin and evil encompasses Satan.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Anionios and Satan cannot be found in a verse. Satan and his demons are thrown into the Lake of Fire with Hades and Death. Why would God even sustain His suffering? Eliminating sin and evil encompasses Satan.

He just appears to live eternally. Note I said appears to, to me. He is somehow living, existing for thousands of years. I actually hope the outer darkness only lasts through the millenium and is not eternal. I hope the outer darkness will be cast into the lake of fire too, but I havent found any verse that even intones it. The outer darkness looks to me like the fate worse than dying the second death.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God is truth, He is not insulted by it.

Yes, but you don't have the truth. You insult God, judge God, and judge His Law.

James 4.11 When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Since you do not have a basis for truth, it isn't worth debating anything with you from a Christian pov. Liberal Christianity in effect denies the inspiration of the Scriptures and their reliability. Liberals can, in this way, pick what they want to believe. They themselves become "their truth."

Eternal life was never offered or possible in the Old Testament. Ya want to talk about Enoch and Elijah?

Obviously, you have an agenda, and therefore cannot put 2 and 2 together. Redemption was built into the Law through the sacrifices that brought temporary forgiveness. But they only brought *temporary forgiveness.* And so, the Law was intentionally made to be a burden, not in the sense that people shouldn't or can't observe it, but only in the sense that the ultimate intention, eternal life, could never be achieved by it. It pointed Israel towards God's mercy as their only hope.

Do you have a point with this?

See above.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, but you don't have the truth. You insult God, judge God, and judge His Law.

You so funny. Ignorance is bliss. I say that with humor. Hopefully you are not real old and are new to the Bible.
Let's look at the other side of the coin....what is going on with the Israelites with their women being considered as property, is very similar with other cultures of the time period.

And there is this part of the curse God laid on Eve, ....and your desire will be for him and he will rule over you. Between that and the fall of man being completely blamed on Eve....(which I do not agree with) ....it is hard to recover from that.

And of course my assessment of the Mosaic Law agrees with Paul's....2nd Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came with glory so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, and then also Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

Truth can be shocking and sometimes offensive, but if you base your beliefs on truth, no one can challenge it.

James 4.11 When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

James kept the Law because he was a Jewish Christian.....I am not! And Christ explained that these two religions do not mix and that Christianity is not an extension of Judaism.

Since you do not have a basis for truth, it isn't worth debating anything with you from a Christian pov. Liberal Christianity in effect denies the inspiration of the Scriptures and their reliability. Liberals can, in this way, pick what they want to believe. They themselves become "their truth."

The Bible will tell you the truth, if you will just read it.
You can disagree with me...you can say you do not believe me....but you cannot prove me wrong.

Obviously, you have an agenda, and therefore cannot put 2 and 2 together. Redemption was built into the Law through the sacrifices that brought temporary forgiveness.

No, sacrifices were appeasement so as not to call down the wrath of God. You have a belief that you really do not have a lot of study behind.
Hebrews 8:10 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The blood of bulls and goats had no affect on sin, temporary or otherwise.

The only ritual they had that affected sins was called the scapegoat.

but only in the sense that the ultimate intention, eternal life, could never be achieved by it.

There is no eternal life associated with the Mosaic Law.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let's look at the other side of the coin....what is going on with the Israelites with their women being considered as property, is very similar with other cultures of the time period.

The Law contrasts how God does things with the way things were done by pagans in the world. If pagans believed in immorality, God said He was against it. If the world used tatoos in their pagan rituals, God said He was against it for Hebrews who should not identify themselves with paganism in any way.

Saying that God was against tattoos is not a statement about art. It is *context* that must be understood if you are to understand things like how Israel was to treat pagans, polygamy, etc. Your efforts at judging God are inept. You shouldn't use God and Christianity at all if you can't even properly represent them.

And there is this part of the curse God laid on Eve, ....and your desire will be for him and he will rule over you. Between that and the fall of man being completely blamed on Eve....(which I do not agree with) ....it is hard to recover from that.

You can disagree with the Bible all you want. You can separate OT and NT. But historic Christianity has rejected Marcion beliefs, which separated the testaments.

And of course my assessment of the Mosaic Law agrees with Paul's....2nd Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came with glory so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, and then also Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

Again, you seem to not understand Paul's burden in saying this and other similar things. The Law was *not* bad, to Paul. It was, however, designed to show the incapacity of Man to find Salvation in it. It made them recognize that righteousness comes from heaven, and not from ourselves alone.

The Law faded away because it had been intended by God to be only a temporary covering. I'm sorry that you don't get that. But if you don't get that, you don't understand the NT Scriptures at all!

James kept the Law because he was a Jewish Christian.....I am not! And Christ explained that these two religions do not mix and that Christianity is not an extension of Judaism.

As I said, there is no difference between a Jewish Christian and a non-Jewish Christian, except that they have different ethnic origins. They have the same laws to live by, and the same Christ.

James did *not* keep the Law. He referred to the Law of Christ as a "Law of Liberty," which means that Christ's requirements brought release from the bondage to laws that could only partly provide covering for sins--it could not bring eternal life. Now that Christ has brought eternal life, nobody needs to bring animal sacrifices any longer. We are permanently covered by Christ, and no longer need any more redemption rituals.

No, sacrifices were appeasement so as not to call down the wrath of God. You have a belief that you really do not have a lot of study behind.
Hebrews 8:10 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The blood of bulls and goats had no affect on sin, temporary or otherwise.
The only ritual they had that affected sins was called the scapegoat.

Sorry, the book of Hebrews explains that blood is the basis of atonement, which means it covers for sin. It sanctified people, which means that they were being used by God, having been covered for their transgressions.

Heb 9.13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

There is no eternal life associated with the Mosaic Law.

That was the very point I was making! ;)