Where's the water?

[Secondhand Lion]

the water on the Earth remains in the water cycle - it doesnt leave the planet. so if the water that flooded the planet covered everything........where did it all recede to?

That is what the article addresses. It is between 200-400 miles deep. Maybe I am not understanding your question because you are rarely disingenuous, if ever.

Where did all the water come from?
Where did it all go?

Answer: God,...........God did that :mellow:

Matthew 19:26​

But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


​(not many believe that)

You are correct sir. I started this topic because of how many say the flood couldn't have happened because there is not enough water. This should be cut and dry because even science is now agreeing that there is enough water. Unfortunately, they only believe the science they want to, at least they are consistent.

SL

 

[Madad21]

You are correct sir. I started this topic because of how many say the flood couldn't have happened because there is not enough water. This should be cut and dry because even science is now agreeing that there is enough water. Unfortunately, they only believe the science they want to, at least they are consistent.

SL

Flood *HIGH FIVE!!* :lol:

[sharedmedia=gallery:images:454]​

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Do you understand what that much water in the atmosphere does? I'll give you a hint....it's called "atmospheric pressure". Think it through.

As a pilot I am completely aware of atmospheric pressure and air density , it changes hour by hour and we adjust our altimeters and power settings accordingly.

I agree that it is hard to comprehend the sky containing 40 days worth of rain water.

But Genesis 1:2 sounds like everything was covered in water , and then the water was separated , some to the "sky" and the remainder on earth. Genesis 1:6 Genesis 1:7 Genesis 1:8

Then the remainder on earth was gathered to one place (sea) and dry ground appeared .... I wonder if that was when the deep sea floor was pushed down and the land and mountains pushed up Genesis 1:9-10

But back to the overhead canopy of water in the "sky" .... about 20 years ago I heard a "theory" that had a lot of merit .... wish i saved the notes to post here

It speculated that the earth was a lush tropical greenhouse with abundant plant-life and dinosaurs and conditions completely different than today ... it was an in-depth theory that could account for all the oil and coal we now have

It was believed that oil and coal (etc) was formed when huge amounts of vegetation , and maybe animals were subject to extreme pressure (deep flood water) for a short period of time.

They were not necessarily promoters of flood theory , some were secular geologists etc , but a deep worldwide flood could account for a lot of things currently on earth.

ps: some months ago you said if Everest was pushed up and the sea floor pushed down after the flood it would cause tremendous friction and heat

I would agree with that , but I can also allow that a lot of the flood waters (some of it very hot) retreated back into the huge underground caverns from whence it came

Today we know there are huge underground aquifers all over the world , and certainly we can observe hot water geysers worldwide , so It is entirely possible the theory is valid

Personally , I have never had difficulty understanding where the Noah flood water originated from , my problem was trying to figure out where the water went post-flood.

I speculate part of it became our frozen polar ice caps , part went back underground , and part was contained by deepening the sea floor.

From what I can tell , some secular geology echos those views as well.

Those are some of my thoughts on the subject.

Theory only , but that is all anyone has so far , is theories

Thank you for your style of debate River Jordan , I find it educational and refreshing

Best wishes with your studies

 

[River Jordan]

I started this topic because of how many say the flood couldn't have happened because there is not enough water. This should be cut and dry because even science is now agreeing that there is enough water. Unfortunately, they only believe the science they want to, at least they are consistent.

I don't think you understood what you posted. This water isn't in liquid form and is bound up in minerals, so it's not even available for flooding the surface. And not only that, it's already at its lowest point, which means it's not enough to flood the earth. As I tried to explain, it's like trying to cover a rock sitting on a plate with the water that's on the plate...as soon as you try and move the water over the rock, it just runs right back down to its lowest point.

I understand how it's tempting to cite this discovery as supportive of creationist flood-geology and I'm sure in creationist circles this was making the rounds in emails and blogs, but the fact is...it isn't supportive.

As a pilot I am completely aware of atmospheric pressure and air density , it changes hour by hour and we adjust our altimeters and power settings accordingly.

I agree that it is hard to comprehend the sky containing 40 days worth of rain water.

Actually, it's fairly easy to do the math and see what sort of consequences arise. Of course the first questions are what the heck is holding that much water up there, and what triggered it all to fall when it did? If it all fell over 40 days, why didn't it fall before that?

And let's say this vapor canopy is 5 km thick. That means the pressure at the earth's surface would be the equivalent of being 5 km deep in the ocean (in both cases there is the regular atmosphere, plus 5 km of water above you). IOW, that's the same as being about 16,000 feet deep in the ocean. Do you think that's livable?

But Genesis 1:2 sounds like everything was covered in water , and then the water was separated , some to the "sky" and the remainder on earth. Genesis 1:6 Genesis 1:7 Genesis 1:8

Then the remainder on earth was gathered to one place (sea) and dry ground appeared .... I wonder if that was when the deep sea floor was pushed down and the land and mountains pushed up Genesis 1:9-10

Yes, we covered that. Moving that much mass in that short a time generates enough heat to easily boil off all the oceans and atmosphere.

It speculated that the earth was a lush tropical greenhouse with abundant plant-life and dinosaurs and conditions completely different than today ... it was an in-depth theory that could account for all the oil and coal we now have

It was believed that oil and coal (etc) was formed when huge amounts of vegetation , and maybe animals were subject to extreme pressure (deep flood water) for a short period of time.

They were not necessarily promoters of flood theory , some were secular geologists etc , but a deep worldwide flood could account for a lot of things currently on earth.

I guess I'd have to see exactly what you're referencing and compare it to what is estimated above.

ps: some months ago you said if Everest was pushed up and the sea floor pushed down after the flood it would cause tremendous friction and heat

I would agree with that , but I can also allow that a lot of the flood waters (some of it very hot) retreated back into the huge underground caverns from whence it came

Today we know there are huge underground aquifers all over the world , and certainly we can observe hot water geysers worldwide , so It is entirely possible the theory is valid

No, not by purely natural means. But like I said earlier, if people want to believe God did it all supernaturally and then covered up the evidence, that's a different discussion.

Personally , I have never had difficulty understanding where the Noah flood water originated from , my problem was trying to figure out where the water went post-flood.

I speculate part of it became our frozen polar ice caps , part went back underground , and part was contained by deepening the sea floor.

From what I can tell , some secular geology echos those views as well.

No, they don't. I can't think of any non-young-earth creationist who advocates a global flood a few thousand years ago. In fact (and I think I posted about this here before), it was Christian geologists from Europe who first came to understand that the earth's geology very clearly does not support young-earth creationism and the global flood. They wrote fairly extensively about it, and some of them struggled both professionally and theologically for years. But in the end, they couldn't deny the evidence that was before their eyes.

Thank you for your style of debate River Jordan , I find it educational and refreshing

Best wishes with your studies

Thanks! I'm *this close* to being finished!!!!

 

[Secondhand Lion]

River,

You have got to be kidding me right? Are you suggesting that the water could have never been in liquid form and never been anywhere other than where it is now? I think if you are suggesting that...you have officially shown your hand....completely.


SL

 

[River Jordan]

That water takes up space. As soon as you remove it from that space and put it somewhere else (like the surface of the earth), that space has to be taken up by something else. And as we know, water tends to run to its lowest point. So if there was some sort of pathway for that water to leave that space, then logically that water would quickly run back down to where it was before (or, the existing water on the surface would go there and the two waters would just swap places). If that space was taken up by something else, then the water would still be at the surface and the earth would still be flooded now.

You guys need to stop grabbing on to every discovery of underground water and shouting "Aha! There's the water for The Flood!" It looks ridiculous.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Actually, it's fairly easy to do the math and see what sort of consequences arise. Of course the first questions are what the heck is holding that much water up there, and what triggered it all to fall when it did? If it all fell over 40 days, why didn't it fall before that?

And let's say this vapor canopy is 5 km thick. That means the pressure at the earth's surface would be the equivalent of being 5 km deep in the ocean (in both cases there is the regular atmosphere, plus 5 km of water above you). IOW, that's the same as being about 16,000 feet deep in the ocean. Do you think that's livable?

A canopy of water high in the atmosphere would not exert any pressure on earth , that is like saying all the satellites we put into orbit are causing air pressure on earth.

I dont know what held it up there or how god triggered it to fall , I also do not know how those huge dinosaurs could roam the earth without trampling everything underfoot , I also do not know how all the mountains got pushed up and the sea floor got pushed down , those are questions for god , not me.

You do not know the answer either , so we are on equal footing in that regard

No, they don't. I can't think of any non-young-earth creationist who advocates a global flood a few thousand years ago. In fact (and I think I posted about this here before), it was Christian geologists from Europe who first came to understand that the earth's geology very clearly does not support young-earth creationism and the global flood. They wrote fairly extensively about it, and some of them struggled both professionally and theologically for years. But in the end, they couldn't deny the evidence that was before their eyes.

Fair enough , but when I said even secular geologists agree .... it was more along the lines that the mountains were indeed pushed up , and the sea floors lowered , all geologists accept that just fine

Only the timing is different . they say it took a long time , I speculate it was done in a short time as the noah flood retreated.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

That water takes up space. As soon as you remove it from that space and put it somewhere else (like the surface of the earth), that space has to be taken up by something else. And as we know, water tends to run to its lowest point. So if there was some sort of pathway for that water to leave that space, then logically that water would quickly run back down to where it was before (or, the existing water on the surface would go there and the two waters would just swap places). If that space was taken up by something else, then the water would still be at the surface and the earth would still be flooded now.

You guys need to stop grabbing on to every discovery of underground water and shouting "Aha! There's the water for The Flood!" It looks ridiculous.

Are you suggesting that the water could never have been in another form and could never have been anywhere other than where it is now?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Lol,

River,

Suppose it wasn't there. Open your ears just for a minute so you don't continue to appear ignorant. Pretend the water was someplace else and then fell to the surface and then went to a lower place where it settled in its current state.

Let's assume it will never be liquid water again. So, now after God said no more earth flood, there is not enough water available.

 

[River Jordan]

A canopy of water high in the atmosphere would not exert any pressure on earth , that is like saying all the satellites we put into orbit are causing air pressure on earth.

???????????????????? So this water was up in space? Oh my goodness.... :lol:

I dont know what held it up there or how god triggered it to fall , I also do not know how those huge dinosaurs could roam the earth without trampling everything underfoot , I also do not know how all the mountains got pushed up and the sea floor got pushed down , those are questions for god , not me.

But those are the kind of questions a lot of people ask when they hear about this "vapor canopy". And if you don't have any answer at all, a lot of them will just write it off.

You do not know the answer either , so we are on equal footing in that regard

That's kinda irrelevant since I'm not the one who's presenting the idea.

Fair enough , but when I said even secular geologists agree .... it was more along the lines that the mountains were indeed pushed up , and the sea floors lowered , all geologists accept that just fine

Only the timing is different . they say it took a long time , I speculate it was done in a short time as the noah flood retreated.

And again, moving that much mass in such a short time requires crazy amounts of energy, which easily generates enough heat to boil off the oceans and the atmosphere.

Are you suggesting that the water could never have been in another form and could never have been anywhere other than where it is now?

I'm trying to explain that you can't just move that water to the surface without necessary consequences.

Suppose it wasn't there. Open your ears just for a minute so you don't continue to appear ignorant. Pretend the water was someplace else and then fell to the surface and then went to a lower place where it settled in its current state.

Let's assume it will never be liquid water again. So, now after God said no more earth flood, there is not enough water available.

That doesn't make any sense. If there was somewhere for it to "settle" to, why didn't the water that was already on earth go there before?

 

[RANDOR]

Details give me a headache

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Because silly, the earth is not flat. (Or is it)

There are land masses below sea level presently.

Do you see your fallacy?

Of course you do.

Give this one up young lady. You've lost.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

I'm trying to explain that you can't just move that water to the surface without necessary consequences.

I am going to slow this down for you River. Two questions are apparently too much. We will go one at a time.

Could the water ever have been someplace other than where it is now?

Yes or no will do.

SL

River, at the risk of confusing you, I am going to help Arnie along...(sorry arnie...been snooping in on your conversation)

There is a fair amount of evidence that the extra atmospheric pressures actually help prolong life and quicken healing times....could account for the longer ages we see in the Bible.

I also subscribe to the theory that the water was held in a canopy over the earth...yes....adding extra atmospheric pressure.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-03-16/features/0803120403_1_hyperbaric-oxygen-hyperbaric-chambers-treatment-for-chronic-pain

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/april/Wright/HyperbaricOxygen.html

 

[River Jordan]

Because silly, the earth is not flat. (Or is it)

There are land masses below sea level presently.

Do you see your fallacy?

Of course you do.

Give this one up young lady. You've lost.

You're not making any sense. If this water was "someplace else" and the "settled" to its current state, that raises two obvious questions. Where was it before, and why hadn't the water that was already on the earth previously "settled" to that point?

Could the water ever have been someplace other than where it is now?

Of course.

There is a fair amount of evidence that the extra atmospheric pressures actually help prolong life and quicken healing times....could account for the longer ages we see in the Bible.

I also subscribe to the theory that the water was held in a canopy over the earth...yes....adding extra atmospheric pressure.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-03-16/features/0803120403_1_hyperbaric-oxygen-hyperbaric-chambers-treatment-for-chronic-pain

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/april/Wright/HyperbaricOxygen.html

You're demonstrating some pretty lazy thinking, something like "Small increases in atmospheric pressure can be beneficial, therefore enormous increases must be even better!!" So ask yourself this...at what point under water does the pressure become too much for an unprotected human? Then take that estimate and subtract the current atmospheric pressure. Then use that to figure how much water vapor could have possibly been in the "canopy", and use that to see how much water you get out of it.

One of my Dad's basic rules of life is "Do the math". You should give it a try.

This is the sort of thing that caused Davis Young, an evangelical Christian and geologist to state in his book Christianity and the Age of the Earth:

"The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest. . . . Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel.

"Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God's truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done."

You present this sort of stuff to anyone with an understanding of basic math and even a hint of critical thinking skills, and they're not going to want anything to do with what you're telling them.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

You are being deceptive.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

You're not making any sense. If this water was "someplace else" and the "settled" to its current state, that raises two obvious questions. Where was it before, and why hadn't the water that was already on the earth previously "settled" to that point?


Of course.


You're demonstrating some pretty lazy thinking, something like "Small increases in atmospheric pressure can be beneficial, therefore enormous increases must be even better!!" So ask yourself this...at what point under water does the pressure become too much for an unprotected human? Then take that estimate and subtract the current atmospheric pressure. Then use that to figure how much water vapor could have possibly been in the "canopy", and use that to see how much water you get out of it.

One of my Dad's basic rules of life is "Do the math". You should give it a try.

This is the sort of thing that caused Davis Young, an evangelical Christian and geologist to state in his book Christianity and the Age of the Earth:

"The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest. . . . Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel.

"Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God's truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done."

You present this sort of stuff to anyone with an understanding of basic math and even a hint of critical thinking skills, and they're not going to want anything to do with what you're telling them.

I have an understanding of basic math and critical thinking skills and enough honesty to say anything is possible.

SO if the water could have been somewhere else....it could have been used on the surface to flood. That is all I am saying...it is possible. I am not even saying it is probable just possible. Draw your own conclusions. There is simply enough water if that water was anywhere other than where it is now. So the point that there has never been enough water to flood the surface above the highest peak in now invalid.

SL

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

SL

Only River has any critical thinking skills. As far as your pitiful intellect, well, let's just say, "A River Runs Through it."

I am surprised she stays here without fear of contracting our stupid.
She's college educated, she is.

Of course a mere 12 years ago, she was pretending to be Lizzie Mcquire and kissing her John Stamos poster. But hey, in 12 years one can certainly unlock every single mystery of the universe.

Biology, cosmology, theology, psychology, she is indeed a Jill of all disciplines.

 

[Madad21]

Okay okay c'mon people isnt this a Biblical event? shouldn't we at least see if there is any science to it??

River I know you'll appreciate this

The fountains of the great deep

Now I have to apologize to the science types here because this may not sound very science like, but we are dealing with a biblical world event, so I think it only prudent that we at least examine in a science kind of way what the Bible actually tells us.

If we look we find that the bible is actually quite explicit on the origin of the waters and where they dissipated.

Now we read of Subterranean sources of water (Ezekiel 31:4, 15).
The Hebrew word (mayan) translated “fountains” means “fountain, spring, well.”

But the story of Noah give us a better clue

Genesis 7:11
“In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”

Foundations of the deep are also referred to in (Gen 8:2) “Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.”

And three other times in (Isaiah 51:10) referring to the Ocean

In Amos we read about God drying up “The great deep” with fire.
(Amos 7:4) “This is what the Sovereign Lord showed me: The Sovereign Lord was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land.”

This is likely the drying up of the ocean

Here are some other scripture referring to the great deep as ocean (Gen 1:2) (Job 38:30 , 41:32); (Psalm 42:7, 104:6); (Isaiah 51:10, 63:13); (Ezekiel 26:19)

So by this we could safely surmise that these “Foundations of the great deep” are either Ocean or subterranean sources of water.

Now (Gen 7:11) explains that there was a “breaking up” of these fountains, so we learn that there must have been a release of water, though maybe fissures in the ground or in the sea floor

There is popular opinion that when God formed land the third day a lot of water must have been trapped within the land itself.
(Gen 1:9) “God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.”

L. Bergeron, “Deep waters,” New Scientist, 1997 – “Evidence is mounting that there is still a huge amount of water stored deep in the earth in crystal lattices of minerals, which is possible because of the immense pressure.” ( See L. Bergeron, “Deep waters,” New Scientist, 1997, 155(2097):22-26:“You have oceans and oceans of water stored in the transition zone. It's sopping wet.”)

The waters that had been held back burst forth with catastrophic consequences.
There are volcanic rocks deposited between the fossil layers in the rock record—layers that were deposited during the flood.
So it maybe plausible that these “fountains of the great deep” involved a series of eruptions with massive amounts of water bursting up through the ground.

I read that up to 70 percent or more of what comes out of volcanoes today is water, often in the form of a steam.

In their catastrophic plate tectonics model for the flood, Austin et al. have proposed that at the onset of the flood, the ocean floor rapidly lifted up to 6,500 feet (2,000 meters) due to an increase in temperature as horizontal movement of the tectonic plates accelerated.[3] This would spill the seawater onto the land and cause massive flooding—perhaps what is aptly described as the breaking up of the “fountains of the great deep.”

(*disclaimer* I have borrowed and researched this information from internet sources, Im not smart enough to have thought of it myself)

I can find out more if you like. Maybe what the windows of the heavens refer to or where the water went. (basically Im getting to tired to continue)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

You're demonstrating some pretty lazy thinking, something like "Small increases in atmospheric pressure can be beneficial, therefore enormous increases must be even better!!"

Try to live and breath on top of mount Everest where the pressure is low , the atmosphere is thin , and the oxygen is minimal

Compare that to living at sea level , where atmospheric pressure is higher , oxygen is more abundant

Did I really have to point that out for you ?

Your first research project should be to take some rats , enclose them in a pressure vessel with all the food they need , slowly increase the pressure and oxygen and see if they live longer or healthier

The results would be interesting.

You're not making any sense. If this water was "someplace else" and the "settled" to its current state, that raises two obvious questions. Where was it before, and why hadn't the water that was already on the earth previously "settled" to that point?

Genesis says the water was put up into a vault above , he called the vault the sky , we are not given the details as to how high , whether it was a canopy or vapor , maybe even ice crystals for all we know .... comets are ice are they not ?

And when you really stop and think of it River Jordan , that mention alone confirms the accuracy of Genesis because if Genesis did not mention that god stored water above the earth the Noah flood theory would fall flat on its face .... there would be no source of the 40 days of rain

God got it right the first time , Genesis includes those bits of bulletproof information , no fiction writer could have come up with that 4000 years ago .... it is only in the past 200 years mankind has barely begun to understand anything about our planet and universe ... we are the slow and stupid ones.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Arnie,

The truth, you just wrote.