Which part of Revelation 17-18 does not fit USA?

[Purity]

So far the only blasphemer here is yourself who claims that Zion-Jerusalem of Above is the harlot mother of abominations from Revelation 17-18 and the mother of "Babylon the Great" which you have asserted is the "man-child" of the Revelation 12 woman.

Like I said Daq I know you interprataiton very well and was hoping you would answer the questions posed however it appears you cannot.








According to Galatians 4:24-26 our "mother Covenant" is Jerusalem of Above. You have made yourself the blasphemer because you took not the sayings of the Master to heart when he states that Jerusalem is the city of the Great King:

Yes, agree.

Galatians 4:22-26 KJV
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Yes agree.

Perhaps your choice of doctrine is what is left when you refuse to believe that YOU are the temple of God:

Acts 7:47-53 KJV
47. But Solomon built him an house.
48. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49. Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50. Hath not my hand made all these things?
51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53. Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Do you not recognize that this statement of Stephen is a quote from Isaiah 66:1-2?

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1. Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2. For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

And again

Perhaps you should reconsider the doctrine of Yeshua which states that "the kingdom of God is within you", (Luke 17:20-21).
Otherwise your "eyes of the flesh" version of the Covenant needs to be burned down with fire before the vail will be removed.

Can you define for us the symbolism of Rev 12:1?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Is this heaven God's throne or Political heaven?
The sign in Heaven is clearly a great wonder but what is the sign?
What great changes did this event do in the development of apostate Christianity?
We know the Ekklesia is to be Chaste but here she is with child - who is the father?
Why clothed with the Sun? What is the sun?
And what is the moon under her feet?
Do you believe this is a literal woman who is clothed with the sun and has a moon under her feet?
And if pseudo-Christianity has gained victory over the moon - why, how and when?
What do the twelve stars represent?
Are these princes if so who? are they authorities in the earth, if so, who?

You see Daq you have no basis in the Apocalypse for the man child to be Christ because he has come and been glorified and the event has well and truly past. You need to explain to us what event took place which monumentally shifted Christianity in the earth.

For the Apocalypse to be sound, we must conform to the basic principle that it was given to reveal "things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev 1:1).

Your interpretation denies this truth.

If you apply this as a rule of interpretation, we must seek for the fulfilment of the birth of the man-child, the war in heaven, and so forth, at some time after A.D. 96, when the revelation was given to John. Furthermore as it is specifically stated that "he (Christ) sent and signified it (the revelation) by his angel unto his servant John," we must recognise the "sign" language as such where appropriate. That is surely the case in this chapter, which describes a dragon whose tail drags the third part of the stars of heaven and flings them to the earth - a physical impossibility.

For this reason alone your interpretation cannot stand the scrutiny of the Scripture.

Purity

(I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions in your responding post)

 

[daq]

Yes, agree.


Yes agree.


And again


Can you define for us the symbolism of Rev 12:1?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Is this heaven God's throne or Political heaven?
The sign in Heaven is clearly a great wonder but what is the sign?
What great changes did this event do in the development of apostate Christianity?
We know the Ekklesia is to be Chaste but here she is with child - who is the father?
Why clothed with the Sun? What is the sun?
And what is the moon under her feet?
Do you believe this is a literal woman who is clothed with the sun and has a moon under her feet?
And if pseudo-Christianity has gained victory over the moon - why, how and when?
What do the twelve stars represent?
Are these princes if so who? are they authorities in the earth, if so, who?

You see Daq you have no basis in the Apocalypse for the man child to be Christ because he has come and been glorified and the event has well and truly past. You need to explain to us what event took place which monumentally shifted Christianity in the earth.

For the Apocalypse to be sound, we must conform to the basic principle that it was given to reveal "things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev 1:1).

Your interpretation denies this truth.

If you apply this as a rule of interpretation, we must seek for the fulfilment of the birth of the man-child, the war in heaven, and so forth, at some time after A.D. 96, when the revelation was given to John. Furthermore as it is specifically stated that "he (Christ) sent and signified it (the revelation) by his angel unto his servant John," we must recognise the "sign" language as such where appropriate. That is surely the case in this chapter, which describes a dragon whose tail drags the third part of the stars of heaven and flings them to the earth - a physical impossibility.

For this reason alone your interpretation cannot stand the scrutiny of the Scripture.

Purity

(I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions your responding post)

Why do I need to respond to assumptions that are made so far outside of the Scripture? Why do you not provide Scripture evidence for your own faulty assertion that the Ekklesia-Church is the Revelation 12 woman to begin with? Where did you find this in Scripture? Or where do you see Constantine in the Scripture for that matter? You deal in speculations to fabricate your own interpretations while I have provided Scripture and plenty of it if you would have heeded what was said and payed attention to the contexts:

Isaiah 66:7-14 KJV
7. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11. That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12. For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

Sarah and Rachel are the same typology; Rachel is the mother of Joseph in his dream concerning the sun, moon, and eleven other stars bowing to him because his father Jacob-Israel clearly interprets the dream for us in the same text, ("What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying"). All of these things should be brought to bear upon our understanding of the Revelation 12 "woman" who is clearly of Above, (it is a sign in the heavens for goodness sake ) and is therefore same "woman" of Genesis 3:15, and Sarah the wife of Abraham, and Rachel the wife of Jacob-Israel, which women are all employed as allegorical typologies for Mount Zion and Jerusalem of Above. In addition the Galatians passage teaches us that the women are the cities are the covenants in the Scripture for the most part, (Hagar the Egyptian is then the typology of all those who see the Covenant according to the flesh, and she represents the flesh; as it is written of Pharoah and his Egypt, "great of flesh"). Here in the Isaiah 66 passage above we have both Zion and Jerusalem mentioned as one and giving birth to a nation in a day, yes, a day. And that great Day is the Cross of Messiah which makes Yeshua the firstborn among many brethren. The "man-child" is Yeshua first and then all those who follow as joint-heirs whom he is not ashamed to call brethren, (the great congregation). We are all spiritually born in the same great Day typologically speaking because the Father through the Son called every one of us in the same day, (every man, woman, and child, in the last and Great Day of the week of Sukkot-Tabernacles, John 7:37-39) and we are likewise buried with him in immersion and raised together with him into Life as Paul clearly teaches in other places; but each in his or her own appointed times, for the High Priest is now outside of our time domain constraints and lives evermore to make intercession for the brethren. The Zion-Jerusalem of Isaiah is the same Zion-Jerusalem of Above spoken of in the New Covenant writings. Mount Zion is not a mountain that can be touched with human hands of the flesh and neither does the Kingdom of God come with visual-ocular-observational evidence which may be seen with the eyes of the flesh, (again Luke 17:20-21 KJV). All flesh and every building can and will be moved, swayed, and dissolve; but the things of Spirit cannot be moved.

Hebrews 12:18-23 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 12:28-29 KJV
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

---

Suhar, the woman of Revelation 17-18 is "the flesh" including the mind and eyes of the flesh with all of its fleshly understandings. All of those things must be burned down with fire to be born from above and truly see the spiritual-supernal Covenant. Did I hear that you saw a brilliant white light somewhere? Was that you? Why then is that woman still draping her curtains around your mindset? "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Therefore take what you saw as a warning and cast out the bondwoman, Hagar the Egyptian, and Pharaoh great of the flesh; lest you end up with a "son of perdition" dwelling in your own house, (for the man is the house).

 

[Pilgrimer]

cast out the bondwoman, Hagar the Egyptian, and Pharaoh great of the flesh; lest you end up with a "son of perdition" dwelling in your own house, (for the man is the house).[/font]

I agree with much of what you have said in this post, except I believe you have misunderstood who Hagar represents. Hagar and Mount Sinai represent the Old Covenant (the older brothers/Jews) while Sarah and Mount Zion represent the New Covenant (the younger brother/Jews). The Old Covenant Jews (those who refused to accept Jesus and enter the New Covenant but trusted in their obedience to the Law for their righteousness) were cast out and the younger brothers (Christian Jews) inherited the promises.

In that context, the woman of Revelation 12 is the faithful remnant of Jews from whom Jesus was born.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[daq]

I agree with much of what you have said in this post, except I believe you have erred in understanding who Hagar represents. Hagar and Mount Sinai represent the Old Covenant (the older brothers/Jews) while Sarah and Mount Zion represent the New Covenant (the younger brother/Jews). The Old Covenant Jews (those who refused to accept Jesus and enter the New Covenant but trusted in their obedience to the Law for their righteousness) were cast out and the younger brothers (Christian Jews) inherited the promises.

In that context, the woman of Revelation 12 is the faithful remnant of Jews from whom Jesus was born.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

There are three of four other places I could have quoted this from but this is the most recent if I remember correctly:

The women are the cities are the covenants:

Galatians 4:22-29 ASV
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.
23. Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.
24. Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
25. Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.

This passage clearly concerns the opposition and enmity between the Spirit and the Flesh. The passage likewise clearly concerns an allegory and is even stated to be such. The passage also clearly concerns the two covenants which are really the one covenant but seen through the two main different mindset-perspectives of either the Spirit or the Flesh. Jerusalem of above is likened to Sarah, the mother of the Promise, while Jerusalem of below is likened to Hagar the Egyptian who was the mother of the physical child "born after the flesh". Jerusalem of above is our mother while the city of below is portrayed in Revelation 11 as Sodom and Egypt, (Hagar) and in Revelation 17 as "the Mother of Harlots". Likewise there are "two mountains" in reference even though the passage above only mentions Sinai, (note that conversely Ishmael is also not mentioned but assumed by the context). When Sinai is mentioned then by default Horeb is also referenced because they are two different names for the same mountain and this is the reason why. Although these are commonly thought to be the same mountain they are not the same: Sinai is the allegory of the physical, natural, earthly mountain, while Horeb is quite clearly the spiritual-supernal Mountain of God wherein the Malak of YHWH first appeared to Moses in the burning bush, (Exodus 3:1). Thus we have the two covenants and the women are the cities are the covenants; the one seen through the eyes and mind of the Spirit, and again the same covenant but rather seen through the eyes and mind of the Flesh.

Galatians 4:27 is quoting Isaiah 54:1 but Paul is linking to this passage in true "remez-pointer" fashion:

Galatians 4:27 KJV
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. [Isaiah 54:1]

Yet if one does not take this as "remez" and check the passage "pointed at" then the same will not have the full contextual meaning:

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1. Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord. [Galatians 4:27]
2. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3. For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, [Genesis 3:15, Revelation 12:17] and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

The woman is a "tent" with fine white linens, curtains of her habitations, lengthy cords, and strong stakes.
She is our "covenant mother" the wilderness Tabernacle of Moses, (much of the focus of Hebrews).

1) Spirit -vs- Flesh
2) Isaac -vs- Ishmael
3) Sarah -vs- Hagar
4) Covenant Mother -vs- Mother of Harlots
5) Jerusalem of Above -vs- Jerusalem of Below
6) Mount Zion-Horeb (Hebrews 12:18-23) -vs- Mount Sinai (Galatians 4:24-26)

It is the same Covenant viewed through two different sets of eyes:
Eyes and mind of the Spirit -vs- Eyes and mind of the Flesh.

And the only way to see the Deuteronomy-Horeb the Mountain of God Covenant is by the Testimony of Yeshua.

 

[Pilgrimer]

How was Jerusalem fornicating with all kings of the world in the time when most of the world was not discovered? Was it huge consumed of goods of the world?

"The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot ..."

But read the first three chapters of Jeremiah, they are quite evocative of the language of the Revelation and the sins of Israel for which her day of judgment came when God visited her in the person of his Son, whom she also rejected and crucified, as well as all those Jesus sent to preach the Gospel to her and warn her of her coming judgment and destruction if she refused to hear and be saved. And the rest, as they say, is history.

And no, it wasn't the consumption of the goods of the world that constituted her whoredoms, it was her idolatry, her “fornication” with the gods of the nations which Israel was guilty of time and again throughout her history just as the Old Testament records.

US kills plenty of Christians or gets them killed. Just ask Serb, Iraqi and now Syrian Christians.

Many nations have martyred those who have brought the Gospel to them, but that's not the criteria set forth in Revelation 18. It says this particular city is guilty of the blood of all the righteous shed on the earth, which Jesus said included the murder of Abel, the first shedding of innocent blood, and right up through the last martyrdom recorded in the Old Testament, the murder of Zacharias between the temple and the altar, so from the beginning of the Old Testament to the end. And according to the Scripture itself, only one city has ever been held accountable for all that blood, and it's Jerusalem, the city which belonged to God and which He loved as a wife but which time and again throughout the Old Testament turned her back and played the harlot with the gods and goddesses of the nations.

"Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, said the Lord ... Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the Lord hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath. For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the Lord: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. And the carcass of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. Then shall I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.” Jeremiah 7:29-34

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wing, and ye would not! Behold, you house is left unto you desolate.”
Matthew 23:37-39

This is the harlot city that God destroyed in the generation of the coming of Jesus, and all this language, including the "supper of the Great God" where the fowls of heaven and the beasts of the earth would feed on the carcasses of the dead who were cast out into the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) and left unburied to be eaten by animals was tragically fulfilled in the 7-year Roman/Jewish war which desolated the city of Jerusalem and brought the Old Covenant to an end.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[veteran]

[SIZE=medium]Nation that started as Christian nation is now biggest producer of filth in the world. Which country makes more porn then US?[/SIZE]



What does it all have to do with Revelation 17-18? Just because it is a woman it does not mean that it is the one mentioned in 17-18.


[SIZE=medium]When I read 17-18 everything screams USA to me. Biggest consumer of the world, goods delivered by sea, fornicating with all kings of the world….. I do not see anything in there that does not fit US. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Without complicated theological “maybes” can somebody tell me which part of 17-18 does not fit US?[/SIZE]

It's MORE likely than when you read Revelation 17-18, it is today's LIBERAL LEFTIST SOCIALISTS ANTI-AMERICAN idealism that screams at you against the U.S., because that's who you're obviously listening to. They happen to be the ones that like killing babies before they're born.

Should we just claim you are a 'murderer' too, just because you live in America???

You're reasong simply shows unwarranted generalizations of a whole people.

 

[Purity]

Why do I need to respond to assumptions that are made so far outside of the Scripture? Why do you not provide Scripture evidence for your own faulty assertion that the Ekklesia-Church is the Revelation 12 woman to begin with? Where did you find this in Scripture? Or where do you see Constantine in the Scripture for that matter? You deal in speculations to fabricate your own interpretations while I have provided Scripture and plenty of it if you would have heeded what was said and payed attention to the contexts:

Isaiah 66:7-14 KJV
7. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11. That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12. For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

Sarah and Rachel are the same typology; Rachel is the mother of Joseph in his dream concerning the sun, moon, and eleven other stars bowing to him because his father Jacob-Israel clearly interprets the dream for us in the same text, ("What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying"). All of these things should be brought to bear upon our understanding of the Revelation 12 "woman" who is clearly of Above, (it is a sign in the heavens for goodness sake ) and is therefore same "woman" of Genesis 3:15, and Sarah the wife of Abraham, and Rachel the wife of Jacob-Israel, which women are all employed as allegorical typologies for Mount Zion and Jerusalem of Above. In addition the Galatians passage teaches us that the women are the cities are the covenants in the Scripture for the most part, (Hagar the Egyptian is then the typology of all those who see the Covenant according to the flesh, and she represents the flesh; as it is written of Pharoah and his Egypt, "great of flesh"). Here in the Isaiah 66 passage above we have both Zion and Jerusalem mentioned as one and giving birth to a nation in a day, yes, a day. And that great Day is the Cross of Messiah which makes Yeshua the firstborn among many brethren. The "man-child" is Yeshua first and then all those who follow as joint-heirs whom he is not ashamed to call brethren, (the great congregation). We are all spiritually born in the same great Day typologically speaking because the Father through the Son called every one of us in the same day, (every man, woman, and child, in the last and Great Day of the week of Sukkot-Tabernacles, John 7:37-39) and we are likewise buried with him in immersion and raised together with him into Life as Paul clearly teaches in other places; but each in his or her own appointed times, for the High Priest is now outside of our time domain constraints and lives evermore to make intercession for the brethren. The Zion-Jerusalem of Isaiah is the same Zion-Jerusalem of Above spoken of in the New Covenant writings. Mount Zion is not a mountain that can be touched with human hands of the flesh and neither does the Kingdom of God come with visual-ocular-observational evidence which may be seen with the eyes of the flesh, (again Luke 17:20-21 KJV). All flesh and every building can and will be moved, swayed, and dissolve; but the things of Spirit cannot be moved.

Hebrews 12:18-23 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 12:28-29 KJV
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

---

Suhar, the woman of Revelation 17-18 is "the flesh" including the mind and eyes of the flesh with all of its fleshly understandings. All of those things must be burned down with fire to be born from above and truly see the spiritual-supernal Covenant. Did I hear that you saw a brilliant white light somewhere? Was that you? Why then is that woman still draping her curtains around your mindset? "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Therefore take what you saw as a warning and cast out the bondwoman, Hagar the Egyptian, and Pharaoh great of the flesh; lest you end up with a "son of perdition" dwelling in your own house, (for the man is the house).

---

You are preaching this message to the converted Daq.

But once again you fail to understand the Apocolypse like all God revelations are continuous historic. Once you understand Rev 12:1,2 is speaking to a perticulr event in apostate Cristianities history you will begin to see a more deeper prophetical landscape than you currently hold.

Still waiting for you to answer the questions which relate to the passage and context of Revelation.

Hint Daq - Look forward of AD96 not backwards

Is this heaven God's throne or Political heaven?
The sign in Heaven is clearly a great wonder but what is the sign?
What great changes did this event do in the development of apostate Christianity?
We know the Ekklesia is to be Chaste but here she is with child - who is the father?
Why clothed with the Sun? What is the sun?
And what is the moon under her feet?
Do you believe this is a literal woman who is clothed with the sun and has a moon under her feet?
And if pseudo-Christianity has gained victory over the moon - why, how and when?
What do the twelve stars represent?
Are these princes if so who? are they authorities in the earth, if so, who?

Purity

 

[veteran]

You are preaching this message to the converted Daq.

But once again you fail to understand the Apocolypse like all God revelations are continuous historic. Once you understand Rev 12:1,2 is speaking to a perticulr event in apostate Cristianities history you will begin to see a more deeper prophetical landscape than you currently hold.

The Rev.12:2 verse is not about what you're thinking.

Rev 12:2
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(KJV)

Rev.12:1-5 is a type of Bible summary, from the time of Satan's original rebellion when he drew one third of the angels with him, then to the ordaining of the symbolic Woman (Israel) for God's Salvation Plan through His Son, then the beginning of the Seed of the Woman at Rev.12:2, and then the dragon seeking to destroy that Seed (the seed that Christ would be born through later).

The travail with child metaphors elsewhere in the OT prophets used about spiritual harlotry do NOT apply in this Rev.12:1-5 case. Rev.12:2 is indeed about the birth of literal Seed, the Seed of the Woman of Genesis 3 to represent Christ's later birth through Mary.

 

[Suhar]

It's MORE likely than when you read Revelation 17-18, it is today's LIBERAL LEFTIST SOCIALISTS ANTI-AMERICAN idealism that screams at you against the U.S., because that's who you're obviously listening to. They happen to be the ones that like killing babies before they're born.

Should we just claim you are a 'murderer' too, just because you live in America???

You're reasong simply shows unwarranted generalizations of a whole people.

[SIZE=medium]Well. So far, other then hurt feelings of American patriotism nobody was able to provide one sane and clear argument to show that Revelation 17-18 does not fit USofA.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I heard preachers say that US, the biggest empire that ever existed, is not in the bible. Not true! Two chapters, plus mentioning in few more are all about the US.[/SIZE]

 

[veteran]

[SIZE=medium]Well. So far, other then hurt feelings of American patriotism nobody was able to provide one sane and clear argument to show that Revelation 17-18 does not fit USofA.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I heard preachers say that US, the biggest empire that ever existed, is not in the bible. Not true! Two chapters, plus mentioning in few more are all about the US.[/SIZE]

OK then, I will go over the Rev.17 Chapter line upon line for you, and parts of Rev.18, to show... you it is about Jerusalem and not America. Then you will have no excuse for your metaphysical wandering statements against Christ's Church in the Christian west. But I wonder if you really have the self-discipline to get through it.

Rev 17:1-9
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, "Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

The idea of that "great whore" sitting upon "many waters" is revealed by the first beast of Rev.13:1-2 that comes up out of the "sea". It is further explained by Christ later here in the Rev.17:15 verse to mean "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues".

Since Christ connected that first beast system of Rev.13:1-2 with the beast symbols of the Book of Daniel, that automatically made the Book of Daniel a part of His Revealtion too, which further defines who all these waters represent. In Daniel, we're shown the final beast kingdom of ten toes of iron mixed with clay will include ALL... the previous beast statue metals of gold, silver, brass, and iron, together as one. The previous metal pieces of that image Daniel was given to interpret represented beast kingdoms previously established upon this earth. They're all... to be together when Christ comes to smite the feet of this beast of iron mixed with clay, and the whole beast statue of gold, silver, brass, and iron comes tumbling down. So it's pointing to a 'one-world kingdom' over all... the earth, not just parts of the earth.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

There's Christ's direct association with the first beast of Rev.13:1-2, a KINGDOM beast. Scarlet or crimson is the color of royalty, further pointing to a beast king and his kingdom. Per Rev.12:3-4, with Satan's original rebellion when he drew a third of the stars (angels) with him, he setup a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. By that association just in the previous Rev.12 chapter before Rev.13, we are to understand this one of Rev.13:1 with ten crowns instead, is but a final attempt to establish his own world kingdom upon this earth, over all... nations and peoples, for the end.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Again the colors of scarlet, and purple, are associated with the colors of royalty. Christ then associates this royalty with ancient Babylon, and not His Kingdom nor with the kings that He ordained of Israel. So again, we are to see a direct anti-type against God's setting up of royalty among His people. This one here is a mimic, nothing more.

Babylon per history was the first... area on earth to begin pagan worship of Bel (later Baal worship), in approximately 3800 B.C. All the later beast kingdoms were mere forms of that old Babylon system of idol worship pointing to the followers of Lucifer (part of that mystery here).

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Who did Jesus say were guilty of the blood of the prophets? Per Matt.23 He pointed to those who had Him crucified. They also killed many of the early Church, even by Saul (later Paul) working for them (Gal.1:13). In later times these same "workers of iniquity" that crucified our Lord Jesus also killed many in Rome, and throughout all nations. Those are all interconnected with this Babylon Harlot which we are later told is a certain 'city'.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Once again, we have to refer to the beast pattern of Rev.12:3-4 that Satan originally rebelled with to discover what this great whore has power over in the last days.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

There are TWO symbolic beasts taught in Rev.13. The first is a kingdom beast that comes up out of the "sea." The second beast is a king, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward that comes out of the "earth", and is associated with the "dragon" (which is another title for the devil per Rev.12:9). That second beast of Rev.13:11 is who this verse is about. It is Satan himself, for he is the one who was in power over the beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 when he first rebelled against God in the time of old ("beast that was"), and then God ended Satan's reign of old ("is not"), and he is still to try to reign one more time for the end ("and yet is"). Satan is how ascends out of the bottomless pit and is already sentenced to into perdition in the future "lake of fire".

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Because Rev.12:3-4 shows there were 'seven heads' with Satan's old beast kingdom that he first rebelled with, we are to note the same with this final beast kingdom upon the earth. Can't be Rome, because Rome did not exist at the time of Rev.12:3-4. The seven heads are put for a seven area division of control over the whole earth. Per Rev.13:3 & Rev.13:12, one of those seven heads is to suffer a "deadly wound" and then be healed. Rev.13:12 suggests the 2nd beast, an individual beast, will heal it when he comes.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The subject of verse 8 about a beast king continues. Five beast kings were past history already in John's days. One beast king existed in John's day (Roman emperor). The sixth beast was and is yet to come, and will be in power for a short time (tribulation timing, see Rev.12:12). That same one just mentioned back in verse 8 that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition (i.e., Satan), is mentioned here again. All the previous beast kings of history were under Satan's rule ("and is of the seven"). The role of the 8th beast king is for the end of Christ's future thousand years (Rev.20:7-10).

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These ten kings are the ten horns of the Book of Daniel (Dan.7:24). The another that shall arise among them, i.e., the "little horn" of Dan.7:8 is this beast king of this 17th chapter that ascends out of the bottomless pit. These ten kings will rule with Satan over all the earth; they will rule concurrently with Satan as the beast king, giving their power and strength to him. These ten kings are not setup on earth yet today ('have received no kingdom as yet"). They will only come to power in that "one hour" when the beast king comes to power in the last days, the tribulation time.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

That's about the final battle of this world that will be at the very end, the battle of Armageddon per Rev.16 and Rev.19. That is when Christ, the "stone" of Dan.2:34-35, willl smite this final kingdom beast upon its feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay, and the whole beast image together, comes tumbling down, and Christ then establishes His de facto Kingdom upon this earth over all nations.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

There's what the "many waters" in the previous verse means. It is put for all nations and peoples on the earth.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

This great whore is a certain city per the last verse of this chapter. Because of the name of the city and what the city represents, these servants of the devil shall hate her, and will cause her to become a desolation spiritually.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Our Heavenly Father is allowing these events to occur to fulfill the prophecies He gave for the end of this present world.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

There it is, the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", not a certain area like the Americas or Europe, not New York, not Rome, not Brussels, etc.


Rev 18:1-24
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

Per this and before, the "great city" rules over ALL nations and kings upon the whole earth. The idea of mercantilism is connected with the king of fierce countenance of the Book of Daniel that is to destroy many using peace, causing craft to prosper in his hand for the end (Dan.8:25). The evil birds of prey is put as a symbol for Satan's host of workers in control of it.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."

Per the OT prophets, this idea of a 'city' in marriage vs. harlotry is given especially regarding Jerusalem. In Ezek.16 God tells how He cleansed old Jebus (later Jerusalem) which was possessed by the pagan Canaanite Jebusites, and He married Jerusalem. He speaks of Jerusalem as beautiful woman when He married her, and then she goes and plays the harlot against Him.

That's what this idea here is about with her saying, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." It means she is already married, but to whom when she says this, for Christ will not have returned when she says this, and God's judgments upon her are here getting ready to come upon her? That is one of several in Revelation that point to Jerusalem directly as being this "great whore" of Rev.17 and "great city".

The phrase "great city" in Revelation is used 11 times, the first in Rev.11:8 about the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God Who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, "Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, "What city is like unto this great city!"
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate."

This is about God's judgment upon the "great city" of Revelation. It's about Jerusalem in a fallen state, having married another instead of Him. In final, the "great city" is in comparison to the New Jerusalem per Rev.21:10, which parallels the end of the Ezekiel 16 chapter of God's Promise to forgive her harlotry against Him.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

The city which killed God's prophets is Jerusalem.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(KJV)

Once again, Jesus said all the blood of the prophets would be upon the offspring of those who killed them (Matt.23). That's another pointer to this "great city" as Jerusalem in a false worship state for the end of this world.

 

[Suhar]

OK then, I will go over the Rev.17 Chapter line upon line for you, and parts of Rev.18, to show... you it is about Jerusalem and not America. Then you will have no excuse for your metaphysical wandering statements against Christ's Church in the Christian west. But I wonder if you really have the self-discipline to get through it.

Rev 17:1-9
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, "Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

The idea of that "great whore" sitting upon "many waters" is revealed by the first beast of Rev.13:1-2 that comes up out of the "sea". It is further explained by Christ later here in the Rev.17:15 verse to mean "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues".

Since Christ connected that first beast system of Rev.13:1-2 with the beast symbols of the Book of Daniel, that automatically made the Book of Daniel a part of His Revealtion too, which further defines who all these waters represent. In Daniel, we're shown the final beast kingdom of ten toes of iron mixed with clay will include ALL... the previous beast statue metals of gold, silver, brass, and iron, together as one. The previous metal pieces of that image Daniel was given to interpret represented beast kingdoms previously established upon this earth. They're all... to be together when Christ comes to smite the feet of this beast of iron mixed with clay, and the whole beast statue of gold, silver, brass, and iron comes tumbling down. So it's pointing to a 'one-world kingdom' over all... the earth, not just parts of the earth.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

There's Christ's direct association with the first beast of Rev.13:1-2, a KINGDOM beast. Scarlet or crimson is the color of royalty, further pointing to a beast king and his kingdom. Per Rev.12:3-4, with Satan's original rebellion when he drew a third of the stars (angels) with him, he setup a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. By that association just in the previous Rev.12 chapter before Rev.13, we are to understand this one of Rev.13:1 with ten crowns instead, is but a final attempt to establish his own world kingdom upon this earth, over all... nations and peoples, for the end.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Again the colors of scarlet, and purple, are associated with the colors of royalty. Christ then associates this royalty with ancient Babylon, and not His Kingdom nor with the kings that He ordained of Israel. So again, we are to see a direct anti-type against God's setting up of royalty among His people. This one here is a mimic, nothing more.

Babylon per history was the first... area on earth to begin pagan worship of Bel (later Baal worship), in approximately 3800 B.C. All the later beast kingdoms were mere forms of that old Babylon system of idol worship pointing to the followers of Lucifer (part of that mystery here).

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Who did Jesus say were guilty of the blood of the prophets? Per Matt.23 He pointed to those who had Him crucified. They also killed many of the early Church, even by Saul (later Paul) working for them (Gal.1:13). In later times these same "workers of iniquity" that crucified our Lord Jesus also killed many in Rome, and throughout all nations. Those are all interconnected with this Babylon Harlot which we are later told is a certain 'city'.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Once again, we have to refer to the beast pattern of Rev.12:3-4 that Satan originally rebelled with to discover what this great whore has power over in the last days.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

There are TWO symbolic beasts taught in Rev.13. The first is a kingdom beast that comes up out of the "sea." The second beast is a king, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward that comes out of the "earth", and is associated with the "dragon" (which is another title for the devil per Rev.12:9). That second beast of Rev.13:11 is who this verse is about. It is Satan himself, for he is the one who was in power over the beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 when he first rebelled against God in the time of old ("beast that was"), and then God ended Satan's reign of old ("is not"), and he is still to try to reign one more time for the end ("and yet is"). Satan is how ascends out of the bottomless pit and is already sentenced to into perdition in the future "lake of fire".

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Because Rev.12:3-4 shows there were 'seven heads' with Satan's old beast kingdom that he first rebelled with, we are to note the same with this final beast kingdom upon the earth. Can't be Rome, because Rome did not exist at the time of Rev.12:3-4. The seven heads are put for a seven area division of control over the whole earth. Per Rev.13:3 & Rev.13:12, one of those seven heads is to suffer a "deadly wound" and then be healed. Rev.13:12 suggests the 2nd beast, an individual beast, will heal it when he comes.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The subject of verse 8 about a beast king continues. Five beast kings were past history already in John's days. One beast king existed in John's day (Roman emperor). The sixth beast was and is yet to come, and will be in power for a short time (tribulation timing, see Rev.12:12). That same one just mentioned back in verse 8 that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition (i.e., Satan), is mentioned here again. All the previous beast kings of history were under Satan's rule ("and is of the seven"). The role of the 8th beast king is for the end of Christ's future thousand years (Rev.20:7-10).

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These ten kings are the ten horns of the Book of Daniel (Dan.7:24). The another that shall arise among them, i.e., the "little horn" of Dan.7:8 is this beast king of this 17th chapter that ascends out of the bottomless pit. These ten kings will rule with Satan over all the earth; they will rule concurrently with Satan as the beast king, giving their power and strength to him. These ten kings are not setup on earth yet today ('have received no kingdom as yet"). They will only come to power in that "one hour" when the beast king comes to power in the last days, the tribulation time.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

That's about the final battle of this world that will be at the very end, the battle of Armageddon per Rev.16 and Rev.19. That is when Christ, the "stone" of Dan.2:34-35, willl smite this final kingdom beast upon its feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay, and the whole beast image together, comes tumbling down, and Christ then establishes His de facto Kingdom upon this earth over all nations.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

There's what the "many waters" in the previous verse means. It is put for all nations and peoples on the earth.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

This great whore is a certain city per the last verse of this chapter. Because of the name of the city and what the city represents, these servants of the devil shall hate her, and will cause her to become a desolation spiritually.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Our Heavenly Father is allowing these events to occur to fulfill the prophecies He gave for the end of this present world.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

There it is, the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", not a certain area like the Americas or Europe, not New York, not Rome, not Brussels, etc.


Rev 18:1-24
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

Per this and before, the "great city" rules over ALL nations and kings upon the whole earth. The idea of mercantilism is connected with the king of fierce countenance of the Book of Daniel that is to destroy many using peace, causing craft to prosper in his hand for the end (Dan.8:25). The evil birds of prey is put as a symbol for Satan's host of workers in control of it.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."

Per the OT prophets, this idea of a 'city' in marriage vs. harlotry is given especially regarding Jerusalem. In Ezek.16 God tells how He cleansed old Jebus (later Jerusalem) which was possessed by the pagan Canaanite Jebusites, and He married Jerusalem. He speaks of Jerusalem as beautiful woman when He married her, and then she goes and plays the harlot against Him.

That's what this idea here is about with her saying, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." It means she is already married, but to whom when she says this, for Christ will not have returned when she says this, and God's judgments upon her are here getting ready to come upon her? That is one of several in Revelation that point to Jerusalem directly as being this "great whore" of Rev.17 and "great city".

The phrase "great city" in Revelation is used 11 times, the first in Rev.11:8 about the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God Who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, "Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, "What city is like unto this great city!"
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate."

This is about God's judgment upon the "great city" of Revelation. It's about Jerusalem in a fallen state, having married another instead of Him. In final, the "great city" is in comparison to the New Jerusalem per Rev.21:10, which parallels the end of the Ezekiel 16 chapter of God's Promise to forgive her harlotry against Him.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

The city which killed God's prophets is Jerusalem.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(KJV)

[SIZE=medium]So much writing and the point is? Jerusalem? It was already addressed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Still do not see anything that does not fit USofA in 17-18 or even 14-19.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So much writing and the point is? Jerusalem? It was already addressed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Still do not see anything that does not fit USofA in 17-18 or even 14-19.[/SIZE]

OK then, I will go over the Rev.17 Chapter line upon line for you, and parts of Rev.18, to show... you it is about Jerusalem and not America. Then you will have no excuse for your metaphysical wandering statements against Christ's Church in the Christian west. But I wonder if you really have the self-discipline to get through it.

Rev 17:1-9
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, "Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

The idea of that "great whore" sitting upon "many waters" is revealed by the first beast of Rev.13:1-2 that comes up out of the "sea". It is further explained by Christ later here in the Rev.17:15 verse to mean "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues".

Since Christ connected that first beast system of Rev.13:1-2 with the beast symbols of the Book of Daniel, that automatically made the Book of Daniel a part of His Revealtion too, which further defines who all these waters represent. In Daniel, we're shown the final beast kingdom of ten toes of iron mixed with clay will include ALL... the previous beast statue metals of gold, silver, brass, and iron, together as one. The previous metal pieces of that image Daniel was given to interpret represented beast kingdoms previously established upon this earth. They're all... to be together when Christ comes to smite the feet of this beast of iron mixed with clay, and the whole beast statue of gold, silver, brass, and iron comes tumbling down. So it's pointing to a 'one-world kingdom' over all... the earth, not just parts of the earth.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

There's Christ's direct association with the first beast of Rev.13:1-2, a KINGDOM beast. Scarlet or crimson is the color of royalty, further pointing to a beast king and his kingdom. Per Rev.12:3-4, with Satan's original rebellion when he drew a third of the stars (angels) with him, he setup a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. By that association just in the previous Rev.12 chapter before Rev.13, we are to understand this one of Rev.13:1 with ten crowns instead, is but a final attempt to establish his own world kingdom upon this earth, over all... nations and peoples, for the end.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Again the colors of scarlet, and purple, are associated with the colors of royalty. Christ then associates this royalty with ancient Babylon, and not His Kingdom nor with the kings that He ordained of Israel. So again, we are to see a direct anti-type against God's setting up of royalty among His people. This one here is a mimic, nothing more.

Babylon per history was the first... area on earth to begin pagan worship of Bel (later Baal worship), in approximately 3800 B.C. All the later beast kingdoms were mere forms of that old Babylon system of idol worship pointing to the followers of Lucifer (part of that mystery here).

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Who did Jesus say were guilty of the blood of the prophets? Per Matt.23 He pointed to those who had Him crucified. They also killed many of the early Church, even by Saul (later Paul) working for them (Gal.1:13). In later times these same "workers of iniquity" that crucified our Lord Jesus also killed many in Rome, and throughout all nations. Those are all interconnected with this Babylon Harlot which we are later told is a certain 'city'.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Once again, we have to refer to the beast pattern of Rev.12:3-4 that Satan originally rebelled with to discover what this great whore has power over in the last days.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

There are TWO symbolic beasts taught in Rev.13. The first is a kingdom beast that comes up out of the "sea." The second beast is a king, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward that comes out of the "earth", and is associated with the "dragon" (which is another title for the devil per Rev.12:9). That second beast of Rev.13:11 is who this verse is about. It is Satan himself, for he is the one who was in power over the beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 when he first rebelled against God in the time of old ("beast that was"), and then God ended Satan's reign of old ("is not"), and he is still to try to reign one more time for the end ("and yet is"). Satan is how ascends out of the bottomless pit and is already sentenced to into perdition in the future "lake of fire".

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Because Rev.12:3-4 shows there were 'seven heads' with Satan's old beast kingdom that he first rebelled with, we are to note the same with this final beast kingdom upon the earth. Can't be Rome, because Rome did not exist at the time of Rev.12:3-4. The seven heads are put for a seven area division of control over the whole earth. Per Rev.13:3 & Rev.13:12, one of those seven heads is to suffer a "deadly wound" and then be healed. Rev.13:12 suggests the 2nd beast, an individual beast, will heal it when he comes.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The subject of verse 8 about a beast king continues. Five beast kings were past history already in John's days. One beast king existed in John's day (Roman emperor). The sixth beast was and is yet to come, and will be in power for a short time (tribulation timing, see Rev.12:12). That same one just mentioned back in verse 8 that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition (i.e., Satan), is mentioned here again. All the previous beast kings of history were under Satan's rule ("and is of the seven"). The role of the 8th beast king is for the end of Christ's future thousand years (Rev.20:7-10).

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These ten kings are the ten horns of the Book of Daniel (Dan.7:24). The another that shall arise among them, i.e., the "little horn" of Dan.7:8 is this beast king of this 17th chapter that ascends out of the bottomless pit. These ten kings will rule with Satan over all the earth; they will rule concurrently with Satan as the beast king, giving their power and strength to him. These ten kings are not setup on earth yet today ('have received no kingdom as yet"). They will only come to power in that "one hour" when the beast king comes to power in the last days, the tribulation time.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

That's about the final battle of this world that will be at the very end, the battle of Armageddon per Rev.16 and Rev.19. That is when Christ, the "stone" of Dan.2:34-35, willl smite this final kingdom beast upon its feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay, and the whole beast image together, comes tumbling down, and Christ then establishes His de facto Kingdom upon this earth over all nations.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

There's what the "many waters" in the previous verse means. It is put for all nations and peoples on the earth.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

This great whore is a certain city per the last verse of this chapter. Because of the name of the city and what the city represents, these servants of the devil shall hate her, and will cause her to become a desolation spiritually.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Our Heavenly Father is allowing these events to occur to fulfill the prophecies He gave for the end of this present world.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

There it is, the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", not a certain area like the Americas or Europe, not New York, not Rome, not Brussels, etc.


Rev 18:1-24
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

Per this and before, the "great city" rules over ALL nations and kings upon the whole earth. The idea of mercantilism is connected with the king of fierce countenance of the Book of Daniel that is to destroy many using peace, causing craft to prosper in his hand for the end (Dan.8:25). The evil birds of prey is put as a symbol for Satan's host of workers in control of it.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."

Per the OT prophets, this idea of a 'city' in marriage vs. harlotry is given especially regarding Jerusalem. In Ezek.16 God tells how He cleansed old Jebus (later Jerusalem) which was possessed by the pagan Canaanite Jebusites, and He married Jerusalem. He speaks of Jerusalem as beautiful woman when He married her, and then she goes and plays the harlot against Him.

That's what this idea here is about with her saying, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." It means she is already married, but to whom when she says this, for Christ will not have returned when she says this, and God's judgments upon her are here getting ready to come upon her? That is one of several in Revelation that point to Jerusalem directly as being this "great whore" of Rev.17 and "great city".

The phrase "great city" in Revelation is used 11 times, the first in Rev.11:8 about the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God Who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, "Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, "What city is like unto this great city!"
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate."

This is about God's judgment upon the "great city" of Revelation. It's about Jerusalem in a fallen state, having married another instead of Him. In final, the "great city" is in comparison to the New Jerusalem per Rev.21:10, which parallels the end of the Ezekiel 16 chapter of God's Promise to forgive her harlotry against Him.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

The city which killed God's prophets is Jerusalem.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(KJV)

[SIZE=medium]So much writing and the point is? Jerusalem? It was already addressed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Still do not see anything that does not fit USofA in 17-18 or even 14-19.[/SIZE]

 

[veteran]

[SIZE=medium]So much writing and the point is? Jerusalem? It was already addressed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Still do not see anything that does not fit USofA in 17-18 or even 14-19.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So much writing and the point is? Jerusalem? It was already addressed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Still do not see anything that does not fit USofA in 17-18 or even 14-19.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]So much writing and the point is? Jerusalem? It was already addressed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Still do not see anything that does not fit USofA in 17-18 or even 14-19.[/SIZE]

I got it now, you're not real, you're a broken record.

Jerusalem is the barometer for the end of this world, and that's what Christ's Book of Revelation reveals, even with God's two witnesses showing up there and being killed by the 'beast' that ascends up out of the bottomless pit (Rev.11). The major pointers to Jerusalem don't just start in Rev.17 & 18, so your attempt with cornering your question doesn't work.

 

[Suhar]

I got it now, you're not real, you're a broken record.

Jerusalem is the barometer for the end of this world, and that's what Christ's Book of Revelation reveals, even with God's two witnesses showing up there and being killed by the 'beast' that ascends up out of the bottomless pit (Rev.11). The major pointers to Jerusalem don't just start in Rev.17 & 18, so your attempt with cornering your question doesn't work.

[SIZE=medium]You cannot answer simple question so you just write a lot.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Which part of Revelation 17-18 does not fit USA?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Revelation was not written in sequential order. What happened in one chapter does not have to not happen until what is described in next chapter happens. There are several blocks of events described in Revelation. They are not in sequence. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You cannot describe what you have seen outside of time once you are inside of time. If I could explain what it is like being outside of time I would but I cannot. John was trying to describe what he had seen outside of time but he does not know which comes first before second. There is no before and after outside of time so he could not possibly know what comes before what inside of time.[/SIZE]

 

[Purity]

The Rev.12:2 verse is not about what you're thinking.

Rev 12:2
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(KJV)

Rev.12:1-5 is a type of Bible summary, from the time of Satan's original rebellion when he drew one third of the angels with him, then to the ordaining of the symbolic Woman (Israel) for God's Salvation Plan through His Son, then the beginning of the Seed of the Woman at Rev.12:2, and then the dragon seeking to destroy that Seed (the seed that Christ would be born through later).

The travail with child metaphors elsewhere in the OT prophets used about spiritual harlotry do NOT apply in this Rev.12:1-5 case. Rev.12:2 is indeed about the birth of literal Seed, the Seed of the Woman of Genesis 3 to represent Christ's later birth through Mary.

Daq was not able to answer the questions in their context - can you?

What event in our history is Rev 12:1,2 speaking too?

 

[veteran]

[SIZE=medium]You cannot answer simple question so you just write a lot.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Which part of Revelation 17-18 does not fit USA?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Revelation was not written in sequential order. What happened in one chapter does not have to not happen until what is described in next chapter happens. There are several blocks of events described in Revelation. They are not in sequence. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You cannot describe what you have seen outside of time once you are inside of time. If I could explain what it is like being outside of time I would but I cannot. John was trying to describe what he had seen outside of time but he does not know which comes first before second. There is no before and after outside of time so he could not possibly know what comes before what inside of time.[/SIZE]

You like many New Testament 'only' folks, are missing a lot of the pieces of the puzzle given within all... of God's Word about Jerusalem for the end. That's why you cannot understand what Christ is pointing to in His Revelation about Jerusalem for the tribulation timing.

Daq was not able to answer the questions in their context - can you?

What event in our history is Rev 12:1,2 speaking too?

I gave you the answer right there in my post about Rev.12:2. Did you miss Christ's pointer back to Satan's original rebellion in Rev.12:3-4 also??? Did you miss Rev.12:5 about the still to come future event of Christ's reign with that "rod of iron"? How much of the timeline within God's Word is that covering? ANS: from the time of Satan's original rebellion against God all the way to the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth of Rev.20. By that The LORD is showing us a type summary within those Rev.12:1-5 Scriptures.

 

[Suhar]

You like many New Testament 'only' folks, are missing a lot of the pieces of the puzzle given within all... of God's Word about Jerusalem for the end. That's why you cannot understand what Christ is pointing to in His Revelation about Jerusalem for the tribulation timing.

There is no sequence or timeline in Revelation. What John and other prophets saw were events shown to them outside of time. There is no way for human to know what comes before what only timeless being God Himself knows that.

 

[veteran]

There is no sequence or timeline in Revelation. What John and other prophets saw were events shown to them outside of time. There is no way for human to know what comes before what only timeless being God Himself knows that.

Where are you guys getting your education now a days? There is no sequence or timeline in Revelation???

The WHOLE Book of Revelation has a timeline sequence beginning from the days of the early Churches all the way to Christ's second coming, then His future thousand years reign, and then God's Eternal Kingdom thereafter.

It has a timeline of events that are to occur only for the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return too.

Its timelines move back and forth just like the OT Books of God's prophets do.

 

[[email protected]]

Which part of Revelation 17-18 does not fit USA? We do not kill saints? But we do kill tens of millions of unborn that are saints since they did not even get to be born.

While the sins of America are legion and must certainly not be pleasing to the Almighty, the passages in Revelation you mention may not refer to the USA. Fully one eighth of Revelation spews out statements against Babylon and as a result there are more controversial debates about it than any other single subject.

Babylon takes it name from the root Babel, which symbolizes rebellion against God. There is, therefore, a component of wickedness to it even before the first line is read.

In Chapter 17, Babylon is identified with the harlot who takes on a different aspect in the next chapter. The 7 headed beast is confined to chapter 17 along with kings of the earth making war upon the lamb.

In Chapter 18, Babylon is described as a city along a great river, crowded with ships and merchandise of all types. Does this refer to NYC on the Hudson or does it, in fact, refer to the city of Babylon on the river Euphrates? It should be noted here that there has been some chatter about the rebuilding of Babylon. Unfortunately a study of this subject is still inconclusive at this time. If anyone has concrete information about this, please share it.

Americans have always been very myopic regarding their own country. No other exists on the planet worthy of our attention and focus as much as our own land. While that is also true of many other nations, including the French, it does not necessarily hold with scripture that America is the primary point of the text.

Indeed, the major focus of Biblical eschatology (and Islamic eschatology as well) is the Levant and specifically the city of Jerusalem in Israel. Everything pivots on what happens there in the end times. War is there, political and financial intrigue is there, idolatry is there and the beast rears his ugly head there. While the ripples of the conflict affect the entire globe, all the tension of end times personalities and armies are brought to bear upon one small country and one single city - Jerusalem.

I agree completely that America is storing up wrath for itself. Perhaps we are even beginning to experience some of it today. Is America a missing piece in the puzzle of end times prophecy? The Bible does not even suggest that there are missing pieces. Even so, that doesn't stop Americans from assuming that the country they consider to be God's gift to humanity ought to be included in the grand design of things. It's hard for us to accept that a puny dusty country in the middle of nowhere would assume prominence in God's eyes over the Grand Old Flag, but the Bible seems to indicate that it does.

In Chapter 17 the killing of the saints is foretold. We are seeing it today and their blood is on the hands of Islam. While Americans are guilty of genocide, the Bible expressly mentions the death of saints. The USA hasn't established a policy of killing Christians and Jews. Not yet, anyway.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Suhar]

In Chapter 17 the killing of the saints is foretold. We are seeing it today and their blood is on the hands of Islam. While Americans are guilty of genocide, the Bible expressly mentions the death of saints. The USA hasn't established a policy of killing Christians and Jews. Not yet, anyway.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

What about 60 million unborn? They were killed and they did not sin. They were not even born so they are saints.

As for Christians? More then half of Iraqi Christians are gone. Syrian Christians are being killed by US funded and armed terrorists. Now Egyptian Christians are being killed after CIA coup deposing Mubarack. How many Serb Christians were killed just because US wanted new base in Kosovo?

Where are you guys getting your education now a days? There is no sequence or timeline in Revelation???

There is no sequence or timeline in Revelation or most other prophesies. When prophets are shown visions of future they do not know when they are going to happen. No human being can. Only timeless being of God knows.

You can talk down to others as if you know it all but until you understand that nature of God is timeless you will just sound foolish.

Rev 17:1-9
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, "Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."[/color][/font]

The idea of that "great whore" sitting upon "many waters" is revealed by the first beast of Rev.13:1-2 that comes up out of the "sea". It is further explained by Christ later here in the Rev.17:15 verse to mean "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues".

There it is, the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", not a certain area like the Americas or Europe, not New York, not Rome, not Brussels, etc.[/fon
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow

16 And saying, "Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"
,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, "What city is like unto this great city!"

This is about God's judgment upon the "great city" of Revelation. It's about Jerusalem in a fallen state, having married another instead of Him. In final, the "great city" is in comparison to the New Jerusalem

That's another pointer to this "great city" as Jerusalem in a false worship state for the end of this world.

So. "Great city" is all you got? Who said that there are no other great cities?

Jerusalem? Center of commerce, huge consumer of goods? Divided, populated by two nations and city that never saw sorrow?

Seriously?

 

[veteran]

What about 60 million unborn? They were killed and they did not sin. They were not even born so they are saints.

As for Christians? More then half of Iraqi Christians are gone. Syrian Christians are being killed by US funded and armed terrorists. Now Egyptian Christians are being killed after CIA coup deposing Mubarack. How many Serb Christians were killed just because US wanted new base in Kosovo?

There is no sequence or timeline in Revelation or most other prophesies. When prophets are shown visions of future they do not know when they are going to happen. No human being can. Only timeless being of God knows.

You can talk down to others as if you know it all but until you understand that nature of God is timeless you will just sound foolish.So. "Great city" is all you got? Who said that there are no other great cities?

Jerusalem? Center of commerce, huge consumer of goods? Divided, populated by two nations and city that never saw sorrow?

Seriously?

I never claimed to know it all, but it's certainly not difficult to surpase the limited understanding some here have about what's going on. Those who actually have studied all of God's Word for theirselves can easily distinguish those who have not. It's as simple as that.

Nor do I have the time nor space here to go into all the worldy connections of unseen forces that God has given power to bring the final one-world beast kingdom upon this earth for the last days. You all would have to be subjected to the same depth of historical research on that which I have had over the years.

But there are 4 major historical works that I will recommend, and I have recommended here more than once. They are John Robison's 1789 work Proofs Of A Conspiracy, and ex-Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley's work Tragedy And Hope, and the ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen's 1958 work The Naked Communist, and Anatoily Golitsyn's work New Lies For Old.

Robison documented the conspiracy of the Bavarian Illuminati Order discovered historically in 18th century Europe. Robison himself was a British Mason, as he was spotlighting a conspiracy of infiltrators into continental masonry in the 18th century. The Illumnati's plan was to overthrow all governments and the religion of Christianity, and substitute a one-world government in their place.

Quigley, who was ex-President Bill Clinton's history professor at Georgetown, whom Clinton also endorsed, wrote his history work in the 1960's which he had to sue his publishers to find out why they destroyed the printing plates and stopped printing it, breaking their contract. He revealed the working of the conspiracy within the circles of Britain's socialists and their hard ties to American socialists working witin the political apparatus of the United States. Quigley revealed how the Rhodes Scholarship trust trains high level political leaders in socialism towards a one-world socialist world. It's main training facility is Oxford University which is where Bill Clinton (a Rhodes scholar) attended. Thus Quigley was an 'insider' having revealed secrets of what he termed "the establishment". About his book being knocked out of print he said it must have said something 'they' didn't want known to the public (and he was very right about that). 1300 pages, who is disciplined enough to wade through all that?

Skousen served 16 years as an FBI agent, serving from the period right after WWII with the Lend-Lease program as it continued for a short time after the war allowing U.S. secrets to be passed to the Soviets in that era, and also he partook in the debriefing of the Soviet spy Whittaker Chambers who worked in the U.S. State Department. Skousen gave a good description of what causes some high-ranking Americans to spy for the Soviets. Skousen listed 45 strategic Soviet points for the silent takeover of the West, some that only came to pass much later than 1958, and some which are still in the workings today. Can you recognize those points today?

Golitsyn was a Soviet KGB colonel that defected to the U.S. back in the 1960's. He was in on the Soviet's long-range economy policy plan of the 1950's (the 45 points which Skousen covered in his book). Golitsyn went to the U.S. State Department to warn them of the Soviet Disinformation strategy against the West. When they gave him the cold shoulder, he asked permission to print publically. New Lies For Old in 1984 was his first work, which in it he predicted if it were time for the 3rd and final Phase of the Soviet's long-range strategy against the West, then the Soviets might consider allowing the Berlin Wall to come down (it came down in 1989).


What those works reveal is the same movement which God shows in His Word for the very end of this world. There are a group of people upon this earth that have been working towards establishing the coming one-world beast kingdom of Rev.13:1-2 over all nations and all peoples. When their League of Nations idea came into existence in the 19th century, and then the atomic age was initiated to end WWII, we began to see jumps of leaps and bounds towards their one world government plan.

'World Socialism' is the key plan, with the aim to join the East with the West. Opening up free trade with Communist nations like Russia, Red China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc., was part of that plan. The EU is part of that plan, as Golitysn also outlined in his work of the Soviet long-range strategy for the West, a one-world socialist state from the Atlantic to the Urals, is what he called it.

There exists other historical works of how quite a few rich elite western capitalists have been a part of this one-world socialist plan for a long time, having financially supported eastern Communism (Trotsky left New York City with funds to foment the Russian revolution of 1917, as Lenin left Switzerland to do the same; Trotsky was stopped and searched by police in New York which found the monies on him; then later released him). The evidence shows that Communist Socialism is actually a tool originating from western financiers.


Isa 8:9-17
9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
12 "Say ye not, 'A confederacy', to all them to whom this people shall say, 'A confederacy'; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid."
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, That hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him.
(KJV)

God gave that above warning within the Isaiah chapter about our Lord Jesus. It contains a dual prophecy, one historically of what the king of Assyria did upon the lands of Israel back in history, and also a picture for the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return, as we are to 'wait' upon Him, wait for His return. The Assyrian is a title God also uses as a symbolic metaphor for the devil himself at times (like Isa.10 and end of Isa.30, and Ezek.31). In Rev.12 with the waters as a flood symbol, Isaiah 8 was one of the original descriptors for it about the enemy of God's people coming in as a flood. That "A confederacy" is put for a confederacy of nations joining together, i.e., the one-world beast kingdom idea of Rev.13:1.

Brethren in Christ Jesus that do NOT know about all this... can... be subject to working for that one-world plan by Christ's enemies. Like God showed there through Isaiah, those who fail to grasp this make it so even The LORD Himself can become "a rock of offense" upon both 'houses of Israel' (ten tribes in contrast to Jews of Judah).