Which view does Zechariah 14 support? Premil or Amil?

[CadyandZoe]

We should be able, at times, when dealing with difficult passages like Zech 14, be able to answer that a clear and precise and detailed explanation that makes everyone agree, sometimes just isn’t available.

My best way to explain it, is to recognize the dozens of clear and concise NT passages that exist across multiple books and writers, that tell us sinful, mortal, continuation ends at the 2nd Coming. The Resurrection, Judgment, Rewards, etc…are all decided then.

Understanding and accepting those clear witnesses, will prevent misread Zech 14 into being something it cannot be.

For me, I cannot let a specific interpretation of Zech 14, break all clear NT 2nd Coming passages.

What particular scriptures tell us that sinful, mortal, continuation ends at the 2nd coming?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I showed you above but you avoided it.

The central question is whether any of the passages you quoted, necessarily RULE OUT a time when Jesus will return to earth to rule over the nation of Israel. While the passages you quote identify Jesus as the one who fulfills the prophecies about a coming one, none of them disprove that Jesus will rule on earth over Israel for a thousand years.

 

[WPM]

What particular scriptures tell us that sinful, mortal, continuation ends at the 2nd coming?

Romans 8:19-23 says (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of God elect). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.

 

[WPM]

The central question is whether any of the passages you quoted, necessarily RULE OUT a time when Jesus will return to earth to rule over the nation of Israel. While the passages you quote identify Jesus as the one who fulfills the prophecies about a coming one, none of them disprove that Jesus will rule on earth over Israel for a thousand years.

It expressly shows that rule commencing after the resurrection. It is in God's Book and cannot be removed or altered to fit a school of thought.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Romans 8:19-23 says (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of God elect). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.

But your scriptures do not rule out a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth. Maybe the creation is freed from bondage to corruption the moment when Jesus returns. But nothing in the text suggests that it is necessarily so. There is nothing in the text that disqualifies the Premillennial view that the creation is freed from bondage 1000 years after Christ returns.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It expressly shows that rule commencing after the resurrection. It is in God's Book and cannot be removed or altered to fit a school of thought.

On the contrary, the passages you cited are silent with regard to David's throne.

 

[WPM]

But your scriptures do not rule out a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth. Maybe the creation is freed from bondage to corruption the moment when Jesus returns. But nothing in the text suggests that it is necessarily so. There is nothing in the text that disqualifies the Premillennial view that the creation is freed from bondage 1000 years after Christ returns.

Not so. The whole of creation is looking for the moment of glorification when Jesus comes when it will be liberated from the curse. This disallows Premil. You have to insert your supposed future 1000 years throughout the sacred text where it does not belong.

 

[WPM]

On the contrary, the passages you cited are silent with regard to David's throne.

Again, you fight with the sacred text.

 

[WPM]

On the contrary, the passages you cited are silent with regard to David's throne.

The text speaks for itself. That is why you refuse to address it: “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:25-36).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so. The whole of creation is looking for the moment of glorification when Jesus comes when it will be liberated from the curse. This disallows Premil. You have to insert your supposed future 1000 years throughout the sacred text where it does not belong.

Your assertion is not proven by the scriptures you quoted. They promise that the creation will be restored and redeemed after the Lord returns. However, they do not specify how long after the Lord returns that the creation will be restored. But John answers the question in Revelation 20, telling us that the creation will be restored 1000 years after the second Advent.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Again, you fight with the sacred text.

Is that how you see things, or was that just a throwaway statement? We both argue from the same text. So what accounts for our different interpretations?

Having discussed this subject with you for many years, I suspect that each of us is protecting a set of presuppositions that we consider "non-negotiable."

I don't like to use the term "fight" brother, but in your words, if I am fighting anything, I am fighting your presuppositions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The text speaks for itself. That is why you refuse to address it: “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:25-36).

I agree that the text is self-explanatory, and it does not support your argument. Peter's argument is that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ, as evidenced by his resurrection. This concept is evident from the text. Additionally, as per Psalm 110, Jesus intends to rule until he subdues all of God's adversaries. According to the Premillennial perspective, Jesus will achieve this during the Millennial period, and none of the passages you cited contradict this view.