Who’s interpretation is true?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I only see that I disagree with limited atonement. The others, though I may have some differences, I see no problem with them.

Stranger
I'm not one to twist scripture around. I see a lot of that done and I don't care for it.

OF GOD, means that you belong to God, you are OF GOD. I don't believe I'm twisting anything around because I don't like something.

I can't NOT LIKE what I don't understand. I don't understand you, to be honest.

How could you like all the acronyms except for Limited Atonement?
It MUST be limited if God picked who is to be saved.

I do wish you'd think about this some more or explain it in a different way. One moment you say you believe all the acronyms except limited atonement, and the next moment you say God DID NOT pick who is to be saved.

I do not like the movie
because I don't understand it.

I don't understand the movie
because I don't like it.

What's the difference???
 
  • Like
Reactions: OzSpen

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I only see that I disagree with limited atonement. The others, though I may have some differences, I see no problem with them.

Stranger

Stranger,

What's the point of evangelism if Unconditional Election is true? As a Presbyterian Minister told me when I asked about the lack of evangelism in his church (I preached occasionally in that church), he said: 'God will bring them in'. No, we are told to 'Go and make disciples....'(Matt 28:19).

If Irresistible Grace is true, then this is another counter to evangelism. Why bother with going to the mall to evangelise or going on a secular website to communicate the Gospel if those who are going to be saved have irresistible grace extended to them so they cannot refuse to say 'no' to salvation? They, effectively, are robots who are 'forced' to believe. That's not how Calvinists would describe it, but that's what it amounts to.

Oz
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,760
5,607
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What's the point of evangelism if Unconditional Election is true? As a Presbyterian Minister told me when I asked about the lack of evangelism in his church (I preached occasionally in that church), he said: 'God will bring them in'. No, we are told to 'Go and make disciples....'(Matt 28:19).

If Irresistible Grace is true, then this is another counter to evangelism. Why bother with going to the mall to evangelise or going on a secular website to communicate the Gospel if those who are going to be saved have irresistible grace extended to them so they cannot refuse to say 'no' to salvation? They, effectively, are robots who are 'forced' to believe. That's not how Calvinists would describe it, but that's what it amounts to.
Oz,

Just as we read from left to right, it is natural for us to view salvation, election, and evangelism, as the result of what we do through the course of time. But that is not what the world is.

The world is "I am" (not I will be) telling His story. History is His story. But it is a story that "is" already written since before the foundation of the world.

Therefore, just as God is "I am", we too are what and who we are...and this is simply the telling of it, unfolding as if we are reading it for the first time - because "we are." Just as God "is", we "are." Thus, when we are compelled to do good words, to evangelize and to "go and make disciples" of all men...it is who we "are." God has given us this "time" to be who we are, to choose, and to be true to Him and to ourselves: This is us "judging the world" in real time. 1 Corinthians 6:2
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Oz,

Just as we read from left to right, it is natural for us to view salvation, election, and evangelism, as the result of what we do through the course of time. But that is not what the world is.

The world is "I am" (not I will be) telling His story. History is His story. But it is a story that "is" already written since before the foundation of the world.

Therefore, just as God is "I am", we too are what and who we are...and this is simply the telling of it, unfolding as if we are reading it for the first time - because "we are." Just as God "is", we "are." Thus, when we are compelled to do good words, to evangelize and to "go and make disciples" of all men...it is who we "are." God has given us this "time" to be who we are, to choose, and to be true to Him and to ourselves: This is us "judging the world" in real time. 1 Corinthians 6:2
Huh???
Maybe Oz will understand you.
I sure don't.
Not that it matters.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,760
5,607
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Huh???
Maybe Oz will understand you.
I sure don't.
Not that it matters.
The world is not what it seems, but was complete in God before the foundation of it. Therefore, we can stay within the bubble of what was "created" apart from God whom describes Himself as the "I am", meaning timeless. Or we can join God and see things as they truly are, meaning: timeless, just as God is timeless. When we do, "what is written" and history become a "created" form of media of all that "is" [already] with God. Time is an illusion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Oz,

Just as we read from left to right, it is natural for us to view salvation, election, and evangelism, as the result of what we do through the course of time. But that is not what the world is.

The world is "I am" (not I will be) telling His story. History is His story. But it is a story that "is" already written since before the foundation of the world.

Therefore, just as God is "I am", we too are what and who we are...and this is simply the telling of it, unfolding as if we are reading it for the first time - because "we are." Just as God "is", we "are." Thus, when we are compelled to do good words, to evangelize and to "go and make disciples" of all men...it is who we "are." God has given us this "time" to be who we are, to choose, and to be true to Him and to ourselves: This is us "judging the world" in real time. 1 Corinthians 6:2

Scott,

You haven't addressed the points I raised. You've changed the topic, which makes your response an Avoiding the Issue Fallacy. This happens when a person responds to an argument by not addressing the points of the argument.

Oz
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,760
5,607
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Scott,

You haven't addressed the points I raised. You've changed the topic, which makes your response an Avoiding the Issue Fallacy. This happens when a person responds to an argument by not addressing the points of the argument.

Oz
I was indeed addressing that specific post. But if there is an overshadowing point I have missed, my apologies, perhaps you could clarify it for me or direct me to the post where it is explained.
 
Last edited:

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Oz,

Just as we read from left to right, it is natural for us to view salvation, election, and evangelism, as the result of what we do through the course of time. But that is not what the world is.

The world is "I am" (not I will be) telling His story. History is His story. But it is a story that "is" already written since before the foundation of the world.

Therefore, just as God is "I am", we too are what and who we are...and this is simply the telling of it, unfolding as if we are reading it for the first time - because "we are." Just as God "is", we "are." Thus, when we are compelled to do good words, to evangelize and to "go and make disciples" of all men...it is who we "are." God has given us this "time" to be who we are, to choose, and to be true to Him and to ourselves: This is us "judging the world" in real time. 1 Corinthians 6:2

Scott,

As GodsGrace has stated, your post here is quite convoluted, i.e. complex and difficult to follow. I want to pick up a few of your points to show that some of the difficulty is your theology that is biblically questionable.
  • 'Therefore, just as God is "I am", we too are what and who we are...and this is simply the telling of it, unfolding as if we are reading it for the first time - because "we are."' You might know what this means, but your communication of it is not plain. Please give us an unpretentious statement of what you are trying to say, but without frills of this kind of language.
  • 'Just as we read from left to right, it is natural for us to view salvation, election, and evangelism, as the result of what we do through the course of time'. No, salvation is not what WE DO. Salvation is a free gift of God (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8).
  • You state, 'History is His story. But it is a story that "is" already written since before the foundation of the world'. Please tell that to those deeply traumatised by Sept 11, 2001 disaster. Tell it to the relatives of those massacred by IS in the Middle East. Please tell it to the Las Vegas injured victims (more than 500 of them) and the relatives of those slaughtered by that fellow.
  • It's too easy to say salvation, election and evangelism are what WE DO, when that is not true. We do evangelism, but God saves and elects (cf. Eph 1:4).
  • 'Just as God "is", we "are."' The God who 'is', is the eternal, uncreated Lord God of the universe. We 'are' does not refer to an uncreated human being. It is not 'just as' God compares with beings who 'are'. God is set apart from all humanity. See Ps 90:2.
  • 'when we are compelled to do good words, to evangelize and to "go and make disciples" of all men...it is who we "are."' Not at all! We do these things because Christians are born from above and have eternal life NOW and want to be obedient to their Lord and Master. It has nothing to do with the 'are' of our being, but with obedience to the One who has saved us.
  • 'God has given us this "time" to be who we are, to choose, and to be true to Him and to ourselves: This is us "judging the world" in real time. 1 Corinthians 6:2'. I'm not as sure as you are that this 'judging the world' happens now while Christians are on this earth.
Please write in plain concepts and clear language that are not submerged in 'spiritual' vocabulary that you have used in this post. The opposite of convoluted is straightforward and understandable.

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I was indeed addressing that specific post. But if there is an overshadowing point I have missed, my apologies, perhaps you could clarify it for me or direct me to the post where it is explained.

Scott,

Not once did you address Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace as they applied to evangelism.

I don't know how you can say you addressed by 'specific post' when you avoided key facts in my post.

I don't appreciate it when you say you were addressing the points when you weren't.

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The world is not what it seems, but was complete in God before the foundation of it. Therefore, we can stay within the bubble of what was "created" apart from God whom describes Himself as the "I am", meaning timeless. Or we can join God and see things as they truly are, meaning: timeless, just as God is timeless. When we do, "what is written" and history become a "created" form of media of all that "is" [already] with God. Time is an illusion.

Scott,

What does 'complete in God' mean?

You stated: 'Or we can join God and see things as they truly are, meaning: timeless, just as God is timeless'. We have an inability to see things as timeless because we are beings created in time.

What doctrine are you trying to convince us about?

Oz
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not one to twist scripture around. I see a lot of that done and I don't care for it.

OF GOD, means that you belong to God, you are OF GOD. I don't believe I'm twisting anything around because I don't like something.

I can't NOT LIKE what I don't understand. I don't understand you, to be honest.

How could you like all the acronyms except for Limited Atonement?
It MUST be limited if God picked who is to be saved.

I do wish you'd think about this some more or explain it in a different way. One moment you say you believe all the acronyms except limited atonement, and the next moment you say God DID NOT pick who is to be saved.

I do not like the movie
because I don't understand it.

I don't understand the movie
because I don't like it.

What's the difference???

The jury is still out on that.

I am being clear, so why shouldn't you understand me. You may disagree, but there is no need to say you don't understand me.

No, the atonement covered all sin. It is not limited. But it is only applied to those who are of God, who are in Christ , who come by faith. Even you must agree to this. Unless you think all go to heaven. Do you?

God doesn't pick who are to be saved. God saves those who are His.

There is no difference. You remain ignorant of the movie. Whatever that is.

Stranger
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
God doesn't pick who are to be saved. God saves those who are His.

So you do believe in unconditional election
upload_2017-10-22_8-22-15.png

You wrote: 'I am being clear, so why shouldn't you understand me'. Clarity of communication is based on the hearer's or reader's understanding and how that matches your intention in what you wrote.

I would have thought that a better approach would be for you to ask something like: What have I stated here that is not clear to you? I'll try to say it another way to get across what I was meaning. I really do want to be clear in my communication and you can help me to do that. Please help me to clear this up.

Oz
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Stranger,

What's the point of evangelism if Unconditional Election is true? As a Presbyterian Minister told me when I asked about the lack of evangelism in his church (I preached occasionally in that church), he said: 'God will bring them in'. No, we are told to 'Go and make disciples....'(Matt 28:19).

If Irresistible Grace is true, then this is another counter to evangelism. Why bother with going to the mall to evangelise or going on a secular website to communicate the Gospel if those who are going to be saved have irresistible grace extended to them so they cannot refuse to say 'no' to salvation? They, effectively, are robots who are 'forced' to believe. That's not how Calvinists would describe it, but that's what it amounts to.

Oz

Because God told you to evangelize. Isn't that enough?

Stranger
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, he told us to evangelise, but that conflicts with unconditional election, causing me to ask: Is unconditional election taught in the Bible? I'm not convinced.

Why does evangelization conflict with election? (2 Thess. 2:13) (Rom. 10:14-15)

The elect is God's part. My part is to evangelize.

Stranger
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I don't know what you mean by 'unconditional election'. God has His elect. God knows those who are His and they are those that are the lost and that will be saved.

Stranger

You could easily find the meaning of Calvinistic Unconditional Election by doing a Google search. I've done it for you and here's a statement from CalvinistCorner:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).​

This is known as double-predestination/election as it promotes the view that God elects to salvation the Christians and elects to damnation unbelievers. John Calvin did not believe this but many Calvinists do. See my article:Did John Calvin believe in double predestination?
.
Here is my assessment of Unconditional Election: Elected to salvation and/or damnation?

Is election, meaning 'sent to Hell by God', found in the Bible? See: Sent to hell by God: Calvinism in action?

Oz
 
Last edited:

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Why does evangelization conflict with election? (2 Thess. 2:13) (Rom. 10:14-15)

The elect is God's part. My part is to evangelize.

Stranger

Please, please understand what I wrote. I'm not writing about election and its conflict with evangelism, but unconditional election and its hindrance to evangelism.

I believe the Bible teaches election of Christians to salvation, but not unconditional election.

Perhaps you need to understand what the Calvinists mean by unconditional election. It was you who stated above, 'I don't know what you mean by "unconditional election"' (#294).

Oz
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,760
5,607
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As GodsGrace has stated, your post here is quite convoluted, i.e. complex and difficult to follow. I want to pick up a few of your points to show that some of the difficulty is your theology that is biblically questionable.
  • 'Therefore, just as God is "I am", we too are what and who we are...and this is simply the telling of it, unfolding as if we are reading it for the first time - because "we are."' You might know what this means, but your communication of it is not plain. Please give us an unpretentious statement of what you are trying to say, but without frills of this kind of language.
I may have to take them one at a time:

Understanding just what "I am" means, is key. With God "I am" for our use here, means that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But that is a translation of God's timeless reality, into the timeline of this created world which exists apart from God.

If you can grasp that reality, and then if we are of God and begin to walk in the spirit, we will come to view things from His perspective. This is what is meant by "He must increase, but I must decrease", and "the world is passing away." In that "new" existence we, by walking in the spirit, we walk less in the world of time, and more in the timeless realm of God. In which case, we are less "I was", I will be", and more "I am."

Now, consider that "before the foundation of the world" "I am", meaning Christ, and realize that if we are "in Christ"...we too are "I am" just as He is "I am", or as I said before, we "are."

Alternatively, we remain within the bubble of created time until the end when all shall awaken before God. Thus, we are urged to "rise up" to "awaken" from our "slumber."
'Just as we read from left to right, it is natural for us to view salvation, election, and evangelism, as the result of what we do through the course of time'. No, salvation is not what WE DO. Salvation is a free gift of God (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8).
I was not referring to salvation (salvation was the object, not the subject), but rather to how we are inclined to see things as the world see things, because it is all we have known since birth. My point was, that if we are born [again], not into this world, but out of the world and into the kingdom of God, why should we continue to look at all things as we once did? We should rather look at all things anew, and as God does...which is timeless.

Again, alternatively we can remain within the bubble of created time, and catch all of what I am saying "in the twinkling of an eye" when "all are changed." But if we say that we are already changed but have not changed, then we kid ourselves, and we will have to wait until the end, even though there is no need to wait.
'Just as God "is", we "are."' The God who 'is', is the eternal, uncreated Lord God of the universe. We 'are' does not refer to an uncreated human being. It is not 'just as' God compares with beings who 'are'. God is set apart from all humanity. See Ps 90:2.
As I said, if we are "in Christ" and "it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us", then we should also say, "I am." To do otherwise is to deny Christ.
'when we are compelled to do good words, to evangelize and to "go and make disciples" of all men...it is who we "are."' Not at all! We do these things because Christians are born from above and have eternal life NOW and want to be obedient to their Lord and Master. It has nothing to do with the 'are' of our being, but with obedience to the One who has saved us.
You again are addressing the "object" of the discussion instead of the "subject." My point was that because we are who we are, we will do what we will do. But none of what you refer to here changes who we "are."
'God has given us this "time" to be who we are, to choose, and to be true to Him and to ourselves: This is us "judging the world" in real time. 1 Corinthians 6:2'. I'm not as sure as you are that this 'judging the world' happens now while Christians are on this earth.
Better then not to speculate.
Please write in plain concepts and clear language that are not submerged in 'spiritual' vocabulary that you have used in this post. The opposite of convoluted is straightforward and understandable.
It is the world that speaks in tongues, but I am now speaking plainly, not always to the understanding of those who see it as foreign. The alternative is more parables.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,760
5,607
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Scott,

Not once did you address Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace as they applied to evangelism.

I don't know how you can say you addressed by 'specific post' when you avoided key facts in my post.

I don't appreciate it when you say you were addressing the points when you weren't.

Oz
I covered all this in my other post (#299 above). But the point is, if we look at created time as the only reality, then we are not even considering election legitimate or even possible...which is wrong, because it denies the timeless reality of God.

So, my comments are to explain that evangelism is the fruit of who we 'are" in that greater reality of God where all that is included within time is pre-recorded.

As for "Irresistible Grace", I just thought that was your creative use of adverbs.