Who’s words are these?

[Matthias]

You're welcome !
It is through having the Old Testament and the New Testament and tying the two together and knitting a whole cloth that I see the combination of The Father , The Son and The Holy Spirit .

Do I believe someone can read and study the bible and come to same place you have @Matthias , sure they can .
I did not arrive at the place were you are in your studies of all things God .
I do not wield the creeds as a weapon upon others and I am perplexed by those that do .

I don’t have any problem dealing with those who wield the trinitarian creeds as a weapon upon me. What they do to me, they do to all Jewish monotheists. I’m confident that the Messiah - whom you know is himself a Jewish monotheist - will vindicate and reward me.

It is my personal belief that things will go well for you in the end because you are treating me as you would treat him.

 

[Matthias]

Wouldn't that belief in Jesus qualify you as a Messianic?

Yes.

 

[Matthias]

Correct, and since it's God that we are to live and die for (Rom. 14:8), shouldn't you teach your readers God is the only Lord to live and die for?

No.

 

[Origen]

No.

Where is it written that we are to live and die for a lord other than God?

 

[Matthias]

Where do you think it's written that we are to live and die for another Lord other than God (Rom. 14:8)?

Jesus is the Lord Messiah. Yahweh is the Lord God.

 

[Origen]

Jesus is the Lord Messiah. Yahweh is the Lord God.

It's written that we are to live and die for the Lord God (Rom. 14:8). Where is it written that we are to live and die for a lord other than God?

 

[Matthias]

And it's written that we are to live and die for the Lord our God (Rom. 14:8). Where is it written that we are to live and die for anyone other than the Lord our God?

Would you not live and die for Jesus? He is the Lord’s Messiah. The apostles lived and died for him.

 

[Origen]

Would you not live and die for Jesus?

That doesn't answer my question. My answer to your question, though, is that I would live and die for God Who is one and trine: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one, for it's written that we are to live and die for the Lord God (Rom. 14:8). Where is it written that we are to live and die for a lord other than God?

He is the Lord’s Messiah. The apostles lived and died for him.

The apostles lived and died for God.

 

[Matthias]

I would live and die for God Who is one and triune: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one.

You aren’t a Jewish monotheist. Jewish monotheists aren’t trinitarians.

You believe and teach that the Son and God are two separate Lords whom we are to live and die for…

That’s right.

… but it's written that we are to live and die for the Lord our God (Rom. 14:8).

That is also right. Paul is addressing the Lord our God, not the Messiah in that passage.

Every Jewish monotheist - regardless of whether or not they believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah - would instantly recognize “the Lord our God” as an echo of the creed of Judaism. I’ve demonstrated in this thread (and in many others) that “the Lord our God” is the Messiah’s God and Father.

Where is it written that we are to live and die for anyone other than the Lord our God?

Scripture is full of examples of believers who did. I‘ve already pointed out to you that the apostles - who like Jesus, were Jewish monotheists - did.

 

[Matthias]

Precisely.

Thank you. It isn’t difficult.

Paul wrote that we are to live and die for the Lord our God (Rom. 14:8).

Yes. Paul is speaking in the passage about the God of Jewish monotheists, Yahweh.

Yahweh is the God and Father of a Jewish monotheist, Jesus of Nazareth.

Yahweh is my God and Father.

Where does he, or anyone else, write that we are to live and die for anyone other than the Lord our God?

Jewish monotheists believe in the Jewish law of agency.

 

[Matthias]

Cool, but that's not what I asked. I'm asking you to show where it is written by Paul, someone, anyone, that we are to live and die for anyone other than the Lord our God?

If you understood Jewish monotheism you would see it plainly in the Jewish scriptures.

You’ve been intentionally changing my words; knowingly and willfully misrepresenting what I’ve said. That is the act of a wicked man, not the act of a righteous man.

Most trinitarians, I’m happy to say, are far better than that.

Goodnight.

 

[Matthias]

Jewish monotheists believe in the Jewish law of agency.

“All Old Testament scholars and commentators recognize that in Jewish custom whenever a superior commissioned an agent to act on his behalf, the agent was regarded as the person himself. This is well expressed in The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion: Agent (Heb. Shaliah) : The main point if the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, ‘a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself’ (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.”

(Robert James Essoe, “Shaliah: An Introduction to the Law of Agency”)

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Raymond%20Essoe%20--%20Shaliah.pdf

The law of agency is featured in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament.

 

[Origen]

You’ve been intentionally changing my words; knowingly and willfully misrepresenting what I’ve said.

I left in what you said in all of your quotes, but the parts that were false I put a strike through, and/or added truthful words to your quote that you should've said, which were in bold red to show that it was my doing.

If you understood Jewish monotheism you would see it plainly in the Jewish scriptures.

If you could show where it's written in Scripture that we are to live and die for a lord other than God, then you would.

 

[Matthias]

No.

“Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t Yahweh.” - Ben Witherington

A trinitarian concession to the constraints of history.

“In later times the church, no longer perceiving the power and decisiveness of the agent-son-representative model, and having among its members men used to a more philosophical analysis, felt it necessary to go further in the direction of metaphysical identity between Jesus and the heavenly Father: released from Jewish monotheism, gentile Christians began to think of Jesus as also, in some sense God.”

(A.E. Harvey, Jesus and the Constraints of History, p. 173)

The trinitarian author understood that the Jewish monotheism of the Messiah, the apostles, and the first Christians was gradually replaced by church.

P.S.

I think it’s worth pointing out that Harvey isn’t the only trinitarian scholar who does. It’s basic church history.

 

[Matthias]

“1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only, and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:13).”

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

There is no God in Jewish monotheism besides this one.

“The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand.”

(Acts 5:30-31)

Peter - like all of the other apostles and Jesus - is a Jewish monotheist. God, the one God, “the God of our fathers” is the heavenly Father. What Jesus said in John 2:19 harmonizes perfectly with his, their and my Jewish theology.

 

[David Lamb]

My argument is consistent with Jewish monotheism, and that means everything to me. Jesus is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.



No he didn’t. His God said he would raise Jesus from the dead.




No. This is Jewish monotheism.

A monotheist believes in one God. Trinitarians believe in one God. Thy believe that the bible teaches that one God exists in three "persons": the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods.

 

[Matthias]

A monotheist believes in one God. Trinitarians believe in one God. Thy believe that the bible teaches that one God exists in three "persons": the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods.

Having been raised trinitarian and having taught trinitarian theology, I’m happy to confirm the accuracy of your comment. When I see non-trinitarians saying otherwise, I frequently attempt to gently correct them.

My primary interest is in Jewish monotheism, not trinitarianism. I acknowledge that both have their place in the timeline of Christianity. The church began as a sect of Judaism.

 

[JustMe]

Can you explain Jesus gaining his salvation to me ? It was through his shedding of his blood and death on the cross that we were able to gain our salvation .

The body that contained the Spirit of Jesus died , but Jesus as we know Him did not die .

The Father's Spirit never left Jesus .

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Yes, that's right, Jesus' spirit was never left alone from his Father. Just like when we die, we are in the direct 'hands' of Jesus because of his immortality, authority status, and new power to reunite the human spirit with a new body, power and authority all given to him by the father.

The definition of death is basically the separation of the the human spirit for its body (and thus the soul is gone). That is what occurred with Jesus, and will also occur with us.

Now by the use of the words saved or salvation to new life, this is what occurred to Jesus and will also occur to us when Christ returns and we are truly reborn into a new immortal body and a new spirit tied intrinsically to Jesus, as what happened to Jesus with his Fathers' spirit when he was 'revived' saved from his death
.
Then when the Kingdom is consummated in full, is when the Father is all in all, in Jesus and thus in us...



.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Holy Spirit is not a person, but Greek is a language that gives ‘things’ a gender. For example the Holy Spirit is described as a “helper” (John 14:16-17) which is “paraklētos” and is in the masculine gender so all references to the “paraklētos” have male pronouns. We all understand pronouns these days, even if we don’t want to…..It doesn’t make the Holy Spirit a male person. Spirits have no gender.

”God the Father” is clearly stated in Scripture….but “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” are entirely missing from any passage in God’s word. These titles are an entirely Catholic invention, for obvious reasons.

Nobody said the Holy Spirit is a man/male. However - He IS a distinct person. The Bible shows that the Holy Spirit as has a mind (1 Cor. 2:10-11), feelings (Eph. 4:30), and a will (1 Cor. 12:11),These are ALL characteristics of a person.

As to your objection to the titles "God, the Son" and "God, the Holy Spirit" - this is heresy. The Bible clearly identifies BOTH the Son AND the Holy Spirit as God:

Jesus is God
Isa. 7:14
All right then, the Lord himself will give

Isa. 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matt. 4:7
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

John 1:3
ALL things were made by HIM (Jesus); and without him was not ANY thing made that was made.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30
“I and the Father are one."

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

2 Cor. 4:4
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Phil. 2:6
...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Col. 2:9
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Tim. 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Heb. 1:8 / Psalm45:6
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Titus 2:13
“… while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Rev. 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end".
(This claim of “Alpha and the Omega” is attributed to the Lord God in Rev.1:8)

The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and He will give you *ANOTHER Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
*This word in Greek means, “another of the SAME kind.”

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

2 Cor. 3:17
Now the Lord IS the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Cor. 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU?

John 14:23
Jesus replied: "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him.

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."

 

[Matthias]

“The Father loves me, because I give up my life, so I may receive it back again. No one takes my life from me. I give it up willingly! I have the power to give it up and the power to receive it back again, just as my Father commanded.”

(John 10:17-18, CEV)

This translation presents a different understanding than the majority of translations do. The translators have a choice to make between “take” (active) and “receive” (passive).

The dead don’t take their lives back; the dead receive their lives back. They don’t raise themselves; someone else raises them.

Jesus, as many passages of scripture attest, was raised back to life by God.