Who are the DEAD in CHRIST WHO RISE FIRST?

[Vickie]

I Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the ARCH ANGEL (REV 14:6) and with the trumpet call of God, AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRSTPaul says the DEAD in CHRIST will RISE FIRST, at the voice of the Arch Angel command, so just who are these? Are they the SAVED?Then the teachings of going to heaven when one dies can't be right, according to this very verse.

 

[gumby]

Ok i can help you on this subject. the dead in christ i beleive personally are the people who are going through the motions and not digging in depth in the bible. And the scpripture is refering to when christ returns at the seventh trump. In order to get a better understanding of what this is refering to read Ezekiel 37:1-10.

 

[Stumpmaster]

AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST[/B] Paul says the DEAD in CHRIST will RISE FIRST, at the voice of the Arch Angel command, so just who are these? Are they the SAVED? Then the teachings of going to heaven when one dies can't be right, according to this very verse.

Greetings Vickie, About the term "dead in Christ", the Bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2Co 5:6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:(2Co 5:7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight)(2Co 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Comment from the People's New Testament

We are confident In the face of every peril, because we know that death, an absence from the body, would be to be present with the Lord. Note here the doctrine of the immaterial nature of the human spirit. It puts aside the body to be clothed with a new garment. It is absent from the body but present with the Lord. The body is not essential to its conscious existence. It does not sleep because the body sleeps. To Paul, death meant to be present at once with Christ, leaving the body behind. He labored (2Co_5:9) so that, whether present in the body or absent from it, he might be accepted with Christ.

God doesn't want His people to be ignorant about those who "sleep" which is a euphemism for those who are "dead". In the following verses we learn that God will bring those that "sleep" in Jesus back with Him when He comes again, meaning Christians' whose spirits have left their dead bodies will return with Him, but they will be reunited with their bodies which will rise from a state of corruption to become new incorruptible redemption bodies.(see Romans 8:23)

(1Th 4:13)

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.(1Th 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.(1Th 4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(1Th 4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:(1Th 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(1Th 4:18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Hope this helps.

 

[Vickie]

FIRST"[/U].[/B]This would have to be the Patriarchs and those who have died "IN" Christ don't you think? Those who have been waiting in the ground like Abraham, Issac, Jacob..those who the promise of being resurrected into eternal life will rise FIRST is what I am seeing. Thanks

 

[Vickie]

Thank you for your reply, you are saying the Dead in Christ who RISE FIRST AT HIS COMING are the "SAVED PEOPLE"?Those who have died in the faith and are raised back up at his coming?

God doesn't want His people to be ignorant about those who "sleep" which is a euphemism for those who are "dead". In the following verses we learn that God will bring those that "sleep" in Jesus back with Him when He comes again, meaning Christians' whose spirits have left their dead bodies will return with Him, but they will be reunited with their bodies which will rise from a state of corruption to become new incorruptible redemption bodies.Romans 8:23Hope this helps.

Your understanding of the Spirit that goes back to God is not what I read from the verses, but that is okay. Ezekiel speaks of this resurrection of Christ and the dead being raised in exact words that are different from what I hear you say. Ezek 37:13-14 Then you, my people will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14.) I will put "MY SPIRIT" in YOU and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I am the Lord, I have spoken and will do this, declares the Lord. This is what the Lord himself says will happen when He comes. I recently read this. God makes it clear we have not been to heaven in this verse. He says we will know HE is GOD when he does this to us. The Spirit God says is HIS, that HE places the SPIRIT OF HIS which belonged to him back in us, we can not live without HIS SPIRIT. Because we are human without this breath of LIFE from Him given back to us, we only lie in the ground till the resurrection takes place, which is what Paul spoke in 1 Thess 4:16 which is at the coming of the Lord. Now that I am reading this from Ezekiel, it will be just as these verses say, which match up with 1 Thess 4:16 making these verses clear for me. Thanks very much.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Then you, my people will know that I am the Lord,[/B] when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14.) I will put "MY SPIRIT" in YOU and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I am the Lord, I have spoken and will do this, declares the Lord. This is what the Lord himself says will happen when He comes. I recently read this. God makes it clear we have not been to heaven in this verse. He says we will know HE is GOD when he does this to us. The Spirit God says is HIS, that HE places the SPIRIT OF HIS which belonged to him back in us, we can not live without HIS SPIRIT. Because we are human without this breath of LIFE from Him given back to us, we only lie in the ground till the resurrection takes place, which is what Paul spoke in 1 Thess 4:16 which is at the coming of the Lord. Now that I am reading this from Ezekiel, it will be just as these verses say, which match up with 1 Thess 4:16 making these verses clear for me. Thanks very much.

Your reference from Ezekiel is a prophecy to the nation of Israel. The People's New Testament Commentary explains the truth concerning the indwelling Spirit of Christ:

Rom 8:9-11But ye are not in the flesh, etc. It has just been shown that he who is under the sway of his fleshly passions is at war with God, cannot please Him, and is spiritually dead. But the Christian is under the influence of the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in him. It does dwell in him if he is a new creature, "minding the things of the Spirit." Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. The proof that we have this indwelling Spirit is that we "mind the things of the Spirit" (Rom_8:5), and bear its fruit (Gal_5:22-23). Observe that the Spirit is spoken of in this verse both as the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ. But if Christ be in you. Christ is in us by his Spirit. Notice that the indwelling of the Spirit of God, having the Spirit of Christ, belonging to Christ, having Christ in us, are all varied expressions of the same great fact. The body is dead because of sin. Our bodies have died physically because death came into the world through sin. But the Spirit is life. Our spirit is made alive by union with Christ, and partaking of his righteousness. But if the Spirit of him, etc. The Holy Spirit. That Spirit in us is a pledge that God will raise us, even as Christ was raised from the tomb. Shall also quicken your mortal bodies. Though the body be doomed to death "because of sin," it shall be "quickened" for those who have God's Spirit dwelling in them. Even our mortal bodies shall be raised, not in corruption, but in incorruption (1Co_15:42-44).

Check out these next verses and notice that what Jesus says. Firstly He tells the criminal who fears God and recognises Jesus as the Lord, that he will be in paradise with Him that same day. Secondly He commends His Spirit into His Father's hands and gives up the ghost, meaning His body and Spirit are separated.

From Scripture:

(Luk 23:39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If you be Christ, save yourself and us.(Luk 23:40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?(Luk 23:41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man has done nothing amiss.(Luk 23:42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.(Luk 23:43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day you shall be with me in paradise.(Luk 23:44) And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.(Luk 23:45) And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.(Luk 23:46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, He gave up the ghost.

A Christian should believe their spirit goes to be with God their Father and His Son Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour when they die, because this is what the Bible teaches.

 

[Martin W.]

I Thess 4:16 to 18 are not complicated scriptures. We should not try to make it something it is not. Paul is reasurring the Christians at Thessalonica that the recent Christians who have passed away have not missed out on the day of the Lord. The living Christians at that time were expecting the Lord's return at any moment. Just like we do today and 100 years ago. When The Lord finally does come he will first raise all the dead (passed away) Christians from the past 2000 years , then Christans who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air. This is commonly known as the rapture of the living Christian during the end times. The central message is that when The Lord Comes for his Church the (dead) beleivers will be there as well. We are to be encouraged that none will be left out. The times and dates , we do not know. Paul makes it clear that those who are asleep in Christ (Christians who have died) will not miss out on anything. Unlike the rest of men who have no hope. (the unsaved) . And we who are stll alive will be raptured. These 5 verses are rich passages of scripture and should be read carefully. This will be a major event in the end times. It is all good news for the Christians. The dead ones and the live ones. Everyone else will have the Tribulation. Best wishesMartin W.

 

[Martin W.]

will rise "FIRST".[/B] This would have to be the Patriarchs and those who have died "IN" Christ don't you think? Those who have been waiting in the ground like Abraham, Issac, Jacob..those who the promise of being resurrected into eternal life will rise FIRST is what I am seeing. Thanks

Vickie: You can find some Old Testament Saints were brought out of the grave here: (Jesus has just been crucified ) ........ At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. We are not told much more about this but Jesus also mentioned he went to the place of departed Old Testament people and preached to them. Was he evangelizing? My guess is yes. I am confident that Jesus dealt with those folks in a unique way but we are not told the details. Whatever method he used , I expect the "dead in Christ" may include old testament saints as well. However the context of 1 Thess 4:16 to 18 refers to the Dead in Christ from Jesus crucifiction to Pauls letter to Thessalonians. Not the Patriarchs Best regards and thank you.Martin W.

 

[Vickie]

Firstly He tells the criminal who fears God and recognises Jesus as the Lord, that he will be in paradise with Him that same day. Secondly He commends His Spirit into His Father's hands and gives up the ghost, meaning His body and Spirit are separated.

You are saying that Jesus did not go to the ground that very hour and though he did not see decay, was NOT RESURRECTED THREE DAYS LATER? I hope this is not what you are saying. We know Jesus had to die and be resurrected from the ground after three days. He himself said that he would be in the groundjust as Jonah. Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. How can you ask me to deny what these verses from out of the bible speak? Jesus himself said he would be in the heart of the earth. You may believe He was in heaven, but Jesus himself says he was in the ground.

A Christian should believe their spirit goes to be with God their Father and His Son Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour when they die, because this is what the Bible teaches.

I DO BELIEVE THE SPIRIT IN MAN GOES BACK TO GOD WHEN HE DIES.Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave itHow could anyone deny these verses? I certainly do cherish these very words of truth written in the bible. The only difference between your understanding and mine, is this spirit is some how our spirit, and it is God's who gave it to us. The bible verses above says this spirit came from God and it is His spirit and it returns to HIM, where he is in HEAVEN. I believe it to be just as the verses say, it is HIS SPIRIT Which gave LIFE TO EACH OF US and IT RETURNS TO HIM IN HEAVEN. We have no more thoughts for they perish is what Ps 146:4 says. Even if in heaven, there are NO MORE THOUGHTS going on. What a wonderful hope we have in Christ.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I hope you will study the following verses and commentary, Vickie, as we continue this discussion about the separation of body and spirit. (Jas 2:26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

(1Pe 3:18)

For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:(1Pe 3:19) By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;(1Pe 3:20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.(1Pe 3:21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:(1Pe 3:22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

People's New Testament Commentary

1Pe 3:18-22

For Christ also suffered. Even Christ, the Holy One, our example, once suffered on the cross. Once. Once only. He suffers no more. Being put to death in the flesh.He was put to death by the wounds inflicted on His fleshly body. His natural, earthly life was ended. Quickened in the spirit.Put to death in the body His spirit was quickened. Having life in Himself, as soon as the body failed through weakness the power of the indestructible life began to show itself. In which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison. Revision. The facts stated are :(1) That Christ, put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, went and preached. (2) This preaching of Christ in the spirit was to spirits. (3) Those spirits were in prison. The Greek word used for prison, denotes a place of custody, not a place of punishment. These spirits (1Pe_3:20) were (4) aforetime disobedient. This states why they were held in prison. (5) The time of their disobedience is stated. It was while the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah. They had then refused to obey the call to repentance. It is stated in Gen_6:3, that the long suffering of God waited 120 years. This difficult passage has been given two interpretations. The more common view is that Jesus, after his suffering, during the interval before his resurrection, went without the body in a spirit form, to these antediluvians and preached to them. If this view is correct, it only teaches that an offer of salvation was then made to these disobedient ones who had never before heard of Christ before their final judgment. It furnishes no comfort to those that have an opportunity and reject it in this life. It only shows that one opportunity is given to all. The other view is that Christ went "in spirit" in the person of Noah and by him preached to those who were afterwards held in prison on account of their disobedience. The first view seems more in harmony with the context; the second furnishes fewer theological difficulties.

I believe that whilst His body was in the tomb, Christ was in spirit form, preaching to spirits.

 

[soulja boy]

I thought it meant the churches full of people who are spiritually dead, so it meant it is an advantage to be in a "dead" church"

 

[Vickie]

That has been a teaching some preach. The bible says it is a resurrection of the dead in Christ that comes with Christ to take those who are alive when Christ comes. John 5:28-29 speaks of this resurrection at Christ's coming. The best advice I could encourage you in, is to read the bible without others preaching and pray and ask the Lord to teach you, show you what you need to understand to grow in grace and knowledge. The bible is open to all who want to know God without the need for a minister.Christ became the New High Priest and we approach him directly. I John 2:27 says little children, the anointing you have received will teach you all things, that you need not a man to teach you anything. I am not saying ministers aren't good for there are some good ones, but you need to first know the scriptures yourself by reading them to test what those say who claim this office. Thessalonians is not speaking of the dead church, but the church members who are awaiting to be resurrected at Christ's coming, their promise they have been sleeping in peace waiting for.

 

[watchman]

AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST[/B] Paul says the DEAD in CHRIST will RISE FIRST, at the voice of the Arch Angel command, so just who are these? Are they the SAVED? Then the teachings of going to heaven when one dies can't be right, according to this very verse.

Actually they are the saved and if you start this passage at verse 13 it proves the belief that we go to heaven when we die. 1st Thess 413 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. As you see in verse 14 The souls of those that have died are returning with Christ from Heaven, and in verse 16 their bodies are raised to unite with their souls once again. This passage does not contradict the belief that our souls live on in Heaven when we die it confirms it.

 

[Vickie]

concerning them which are asleep,[/B] that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [/B]14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. As you see in verse 14 The souls of those that have died are returning with Christ from Heaven, and in verse 16 their bodies are raised to unite with their souls once again. This passage does not contradict the belief that our souls live on in Heaven when we die it confirms it.

Verse 13 Paul says those who have died in Christ are sleeping, not in heaven, doesn't it? Verses 13 and 14 confirm Paul's saying we are sleeping. If we were in heaven he would have said so, but he doesn't he said in both verses we are sleeping. No, I believe only what Paul says here. I would need to see a verse saying we are returning from heaven, can you show me that verse? With Paul saying the DEAD IN CHRIST]WILL RISE FIRST, states those who DIED IN CHRIST are in the ground sleeping to be raised up at his coming. Christ collects them FIRST and then takes those who are alive. The verse is saying these Dead in Christ will RISE UP FROM THE GROUND. I have examined it and it does not suggest or state that we come with Christ from heaven, I have looked and examined it in every way. Neither do the verses before or after speak about us coming from heaven with Christ or having our souls being put back into the ground. No, God said to believe his every word, and Paul is speaking it directly and accurately that we are sleeping in the ground and are raised. I believe Paul's words.

 

[watchman]

[quote name='Vickie;71311]Verse 13 Paul says those who have died in Christ are sleeping' date=' not in heaven, doesn't it? [/QUOTE']Verse 14 says that those that ''sleep'' or dead will come with Christ when He returns. Where is Christ returning from? Heaven therefore the dead in Christ are the saved people and they are in Heaven. When I read the O.P. I thought you genuinely wanted an answer, now I see that you already felt you knew the answer and the question was retorical. Sorry for chiming in. I hope next time I can help someone who truly wants help.

 

[logabe]

When you are dead in Christ...it means you aredead to the things of the world. The desire to dothings you use to do are dead. Your desire is toplease Jesus Christ...which is obeying His Words. In that particular scripture, Paul was saying the ones who had actually passed on will put theirimmortal bodies on first, and the ones who have never tasted death, shall put their bodies on rightafter. Logabe

 

[watchman]

Your second paragraph was correct.

 

[Vickie]

I had not seen all that Paul had been saying about the Dead in Christ until I started examining all the verses starting at 13-17 of 1 Thess 4. I do apprectiate your input. I am desiring to understand all that is written in the bible, the words of God. To discuss what is written with anyone who wants to discuss it. It is called iron sharpening iron and it strengthens both parties I thought. The more I am reading the bible, the more I am seeing that many of the teachings of the Protestant reform as well as of the Catholic's teachings are not accurately established in many areas of the bible from the verses they are using. What I have decided is to believe just the words of God that tell me what God is speaking even if man teaches it otherwise. This is not to insult you by any means. I have found this in Paul's writing amazing and truthful of the Dead are sleeping as verse 13-14 describes from Paul. I was hoping you could bring other verses out of the bible that would bring out where people come back with Christ from heaven. I need something more than someone's words speaking that and not verses stating that where I could see this being said in all honesty. I do like to discuss the verses and other verses brought into it to prove all things. I learn from other verses that other people bring that I have not seen. Thank you for the time you have spent with me, I do appreciate it very much.

 

[Vickie]

Where does the bible say Abraham at right now? Thanks

 

[watchman]

[quote name='Vickie;71325] The more I am reading the bible' date=' the more I am seeing that many of the teachings of the Protestant reform as well as of the Catholic's teachings are not accurately established in many areas of the bible from the verses they are using. What I have decided is to believe just the words of God that tell me what God is speaking even if man teaches it otherwise. [U']This is not to insult you by any means. [/U] [/QUOTE]I think that is what we all should do is accept only what is written in scripture, and you are right much of what is taught in the protestant and catholic churches are false, we must only trust in God, and i was not offended or insulted at all.