Who created evil and death?

[Sargento]

ASPEN...

Faith doesn't save you. Grace saves us.

Faith is not a magical power that is given to us by God, only to be used in relationship with God. Every person on the planet exercises faith everyday, unless they are in a coma. I am going to exercise faith in my car to assist me to work this afternoon - that is the same faith that we use to relate to God. I trust God that He is sanctifying me, for example.

It is only through God's Grace that we live and breathe and have our being, in the first place. God's Grace is what justifies and sanctifies us to be citizens of Heaven, Amen!

There is nothing we can do to earn His Grace, we simply have to be vulnerable enough to trust Him, which is faith. In order to do this we need to choose to receive His love and return it - just like a marriage. If you want to be married, it is a grace, you cannot earn another person's love, however, you do need to also contribute love to remain in the relationship. It is true that we could never have a relationship with God without His Grace, but His Love and Salvation are not possessions that He gives us - they are qualities of a living relationship that requires our full participation.

Also, knowledge comes from doctrine, but intimacy comes from prayer. Without prayer, doctrine remains in your head and un-applied. Cognitively impaired people are saved through Grace, not doctrine, for example.

Pretty cool, huh?

You trust GOD in what? Isn't in the doctrine HE speaks?

What is in GOD to be trust or not?


ARNIE...

Sometimes I think we are simply one grand experiment

Good and evil are the influences

Good and evil are the choices

Mankind are the players

The viewing audience watches from the spiritual realm

What we do affects those in the spiritual realm as well

The winners live and the losers die

For ever and ever

Amen

Hi Arnie, what do you disagree (if you do)?

VETERAN...

Since you've already shown here just by the ability to put together words to express yourself with the ability to read and write, you have the same opportunity to get into God's Holy Writ for 'yourself' as the rest of us here do.

Now IF... you had actually read much of God's Word The Bible, then you would understand His warnings He gave us for the end of this world, to NOT be deceived by any man (that of course includes men's traditions which often get totally away from God's Word).

Since God made the association in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 about the devil, He gave us that for a reason. What reason? So we would not be deceived by the Wicked one. Understanding it is important, because it ties DIRECTLY to the 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Scripture about the coming false one to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and also demand that all worship him in place of God.

So, a believer knowing NOTHING about that Bible warning would likely do what when that near-future pseudo-Christ shows up on this earth doing miracles and wonders like our Lord Jesus did? Well, read Apostle Paul's warning about it in 2 Corinthians 11 also.

I can tell you right now, our Lord Jesus is NOT going to be happy with all the spiritual harlots in His Church He discovers at His return having bowed in worship to the "another Jesus", ESPECIALLY since He and His Apostles well warned us about it beforehand in His Word of Truth!

What specifically do you disagree with my friend? What bother you in my words?
What are you contesting really?

Because I see many directions but nothing really clear...

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

ASPEN...
You trust GOD in what? Isn't in the doctrine HE speaks?
What is in GOD to be trust or not?
ARNIE...
Hi Arnie, what do you disagree (if you do)?
VETERAN...
What specifically do you disagree with my friend? What bother you in my words?
What are you contesting really?
Because I see many directions but nothing really clear...

Sargento .... we are simply giving our personal opinions and thoughts on the subject.

Nobody is claiming to be right or wrong

And you are not the judge of who is right or wrong

Thank you.

 

[veteran]

VETERAN...



What specifically do you disagree with my friend? What bother you in my words?
What are you contesting really?

Because I see many directions but nothing really clear...

I'm not declaring what all you said is wrong, only that this you said is misleading...

You said:
"... but even the smallest son of GOD knows HIM and can tell the difference between truth and lie...."


For the last generation that our Lord Jesus comes, that statement is not true, for many brethren will be deceived by the coming false messiah playing God. So in essence, some brethren cannot... tell the difference between truth and lie, especially the specific "lie" which Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thess.2

 

[Sargento]

ARNIE...

Sargento .... we are simply giving our personal opinions and thoughts on the subject.

Nobody is claiming to be right or wrong

And you are not the judge of who is right or wrong

Thank you.

It is the Christians duty to judge right from wrong...
I'm not talking about the mysterys of GOD which HE also shows us but to each one at HIS time ... but these matters is easily understandable by knowing GOD ... and even if is there something a Christian does not know or considerate yet, by the correction of a mature christian he will learn it and accept it because the spirit that lives in him tells him "its right"... and when he hears the voice of sin the spirit says "it's wrong"... because all Christians think by the same head, Christ, they just differ in knowledge which is why we're here in earth, but the understanding is precisely the same.

I'm not the judge? Every Christian is...
My friend, don't you know we will judge the world and the angels?
Don't you know that who ever a christian does not forgive GOD will also not forgive?
Don't you know that every christian has the mind of Christ thus judges perfectly by the truth?
When it comes to GOD all Christians think alike because they all know HIM.

You my say "not all Christians think alike", well my friend that's because they're not all Christians.

However you can just give an opinion, I said nothing against you, I just asked you in what do you disagree with... there was no need for this answer from you.

VETERAN...

I'm not declaring what all you said is wrong, only that this you said is misleading...

You said:
"... but even the smallest son of GOD knows HIM and can tell the difference between truth and lie...."


For the last generation that our Lord Jesus comes, that statement is not true, for many brethren will be deceived by the coming false messiah playing God. So in essence, some brethren cannot... tell the difference between truth and lie, especially the specific "lie" which Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thess.2

I'm talking about understanding good and evil (which man cannot)... not the carnal good and evil of man obtained in Eden, the good and evil of GOD which many times goes against the carnal knowledge.
I'm talking about the impossibility of a son of GOD being deceived by the Antichrist for instances.

What I mean is that a christian cannot believe in anything other than the gospel (after GOD converts him of course) ... he cannot believe in an heresy ... if he hears the lie he will not follow it... he may even submit to it in his actions drawn by fear which exists by missing of knowledge but his heart will never truly accept it because it can't, and the minute he hears the truth he instantaneously reacts.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

ARNIE...

I just asked you in what do you disagree with... .

I disagree with you disagreeing with me

 

[Sargento]

I disagree with you disagreeing with me

Well... ok, that I can't help with.

If disagreeing with you is a problem to you than you probably wouldn't like to hear anything from me because when I talk about the things of GOD I tend to disagree of what is wrong... so unless we had the same faith I would disagree a lot with you.

However if you change you mind and want to discuss something I said or expose faults on on the doctrine I defend than do it or ask your questions.

 

[veteran]

VETERAN...


I'm talking about understanding good and evil (which man cannot)... not the carnal good and evil of man obtained in Eden, the good and evil of GOD which many times goes against the carnal knowledge.
I'm talking about the impossibility of a son of GOD being deceived by the Antichrist for instances.

What I mean is that a christian cannot believe in anything other than the gospel (after GOD converts him of course) ... he cannot believe in an heresy ... if he hears the lie he will not follow it... he may even submit to it in his actions drawn by fear which exists by missing of knowledge but his heart will never truly accept it because it can't, and the minute he hears the truth he instantaneously reacts.

Well that's just it, Christ's elect sent ones cannot be deceived by the coming Antichrist, with Matt.24:24 as our main example. But I speak of those He sent, and not all believers.

And there have been many brethren over the centuries that have fallen directly into heresies against The Gospel. It's still happenning today, and the main heresy of this present world will be their falling away to worship the coming Antichrist instead of waiting on Jesus to return.

Another thing is that evil did not originate from our Heavenly Father, which in the Biblical sense on this matter involves the breaking of God's laws, for that's how Apostle John defined sin. The devil sinned from the beginning John said, which is a pointer to the very first sin having been done by the devil, and not by flesh man.

 

[Sargento]

VETERAN...

Well that's just it, Christ's elect sent ones cannot be deceived by the coming Antichrist, with Matt.24:24 as our main example. But I speak of those He sent, and not all believers.

Are you making a distinction between believers and elect ones??? Do you think the elect are what? Ministers only? Where did you got this from???

Veteran, the elect are the believers!! Everyone who believes is an elect... and only the elect have faith.

And no elect can fall into death after being reborn...

Another thing is that evil did not originate from our Heavenly Father, which in the Biblical sense on this matter involves the breaking of God's laws, for that's how Apostle John defined sin. The devil sinned from the beginning John said, which is a pointer to the very first sin having been done by the devil, and not by flesh man.

Again... HE HIMself said that HE created evil... GOD's law is for man, not himself ... GOD is not under his own law.
Will HE sin if HE stills? Will HE sin if HE kills? Who judges HIM?
Our evil is not HIS evil... HE's not clay, HE's the potter.

Isaiah 29:16
"You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay (judge GOD like HE's a man)! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me (free-will)”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”?"


HE said "I created evil", why can't you accept this? Would HE be bad for it???

 

[aspen]

might does not make right

you are descrbing a dictator, not a Good God.

Evil in the context of Isaiah means 'natural disaster'. it is a description of God's sovereignty not His morality.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

There is nothing we can do to earn His Grace, we simply have to be vulnerable enough to trust Him, which is faith.

I agree with the above.

Sargento .... do you agree also ?

 

[veteran]

VETERAN...


Are you making a distinction between believers and elect ones??? Do you think the elect are what? Ministers only? Where did you got this from???

Try study of what our Lord Jesus prayed in John 17. HE made the distinction there, I didn't. If you haven't learned about that yet, you might want to go through it line upon line.

Veteran, the elect are the believers!! Everyone who believes is an elect... and only the elect have faith.

And no elect can fall into death after being reborn...

Well, there's more to that than just simply assigning every believer on Christ Jesus as His elect sent ones. The Greek 'kai' for "very" in the phrase "very elect" of Matthew 24:24 signifies this distinction also.

As I have shown from Scripture in other posts in debates about the idea of predestination, there are those that are 'called', and there are those that are 'chosen'. Christ's "very elect" are chosen sent ones in service to The Gospel, like His Apostles, since the Greek apostolos actually means 'a delegate' or a sent one. One of the best Biblical examples was Apostle Paul (Saul) who was persecuting Christ's Church prior to our Lord Jesus striking him down on the road to Damascus, directly intervening. So like our Lord Jesus said, 'For many are called but few are chosen' (Matt.22:14).

Because of examples like the OT Patriarchs and Christ's Apostles (especially Paul), who were chosen, sent, and led involving God's direct intervention in their lives, often outside their own free will, that's why this distinction between the called vs. chosen exists.

Those 'called' (but not chosen) which are in good standing with our Lord Jesus are His elect also, IF... they remain in Him. According to the warnings about the end time events not every believer on Jesus Christ will remain steadfast waiting for Him. Some are going to fall away from Christ; some already have (one on this very Forum did if I recall, renounced his faith on Jesus Christ. I know some acquaintances that have). Our Lord Jesus will reject those who reject Him.

Again... HE HIMself said that HE created evil... GOD's law is for man, not himself ... GOD is not under his own law.
Will HE sin if HE stills? Will HE sin if HE kills? Who judges HIM?
Our evil is not HIS evil... HE's not clay, HE's the potter.

Isaiah 29:16
"You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay (judge GOD like HE's a man)! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me (free-will)”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”?"


HE said "I created evil", why can't you accept this? Would HE be bad for it???

There's more to that which you apparently haven't considered too. By the time of Adam in God's Eden, the devil had ALREADY rebelled against God, the devil had already sinned against God. So that is when the concept of evil began, by what the devil did before God forming Adam and placing him in His Garden. In isaiah 10 God showed that he uses the devil as a punishing rod upon the rebellious ("the Assyrian" God also uses at times as a symbolic title for the devil in some places in the OT prophets).

In Ezekiel 28, through God's example of the prince and king of Tyrus also used as a symbol for the devil there, God showed us the devil originally was created a good cherub, and was originally perfect in following God. Then iniquity was found in him, his rebelling against God, coveting God's throne (per Isaiah 14 also). The devil is even alluded to as the false "rock" of Deut.32:31 in contrast to our Heavenly Father as The True Rock ("Tyrus" means 'rock' by the way).

Since the devil started evil, and caused God to end that old world when Satan first rebelled, for this present world God uses evil against those who also do evil and follow the devil's ways. Their ultimate end is destruction, which God's enemies even claim as an evil act, when it is not. That's why we have Scripture like this...

Ps 5:4-6
4 For Thou art not a God That hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
(KJV)


Thus our Heavenly Father may use... evil for correction and punishment upon His enemies for this present world, but He was not the original author of it, the devil was in the beginning when he sinned against God. You'll find that word 'evil' in Isaiah 45:7 can also be translated to 'calamity', 'affliction', 'distress', 'ill', 'misery', 'sorrow', 'trouble', etc (Strong's 7451).

When God's Kingdom finally comes after Christ's future thousand years reign over the wicked, and then the wicked are destroyed like He said, then... ALL evil will be vanquished, forever. It will no longer exist... forever. The only ones that will 'see' that time of course, are His just ones that seek and follow Him and His Ways.

 

[Sargento]

ASPEN...

might does not make right

you are descrbing a dictator, not a Good God.

Evil in the context of Isaiah means 'natural disaster'. it is a description of God's sovereignty not His morality.

And good in that same context means what? Natural blessing? Little by little you erase GOD from the equation.

It's EVIL Aspen... it's written EVIL...
The context??? REALLY??? The context makes even more noticeable... What is the message in that chapter? What is HE saying?
Why does I says I creates EVIL AND DARKNESS? What is the point of saying it?


I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Isaiah 45:5-7


Yet you say "It's not HIM, someone else created evil". AMAZING...

A dictator? What is your problem with being ruled by HIM? Why is that a problem to you? Do you want freedom from HIM?

There is nothing we can do to earn His Grace, we simply have to be vulnerable enough to trust Him, which is faith.

I agree with the above.

Sargento .... do you agree also ?



The words are truth, but the understanding of them in you might be different of mine.

Yes, there is nothing we can do to earn HIS grace and we have to be vulnerable to trust HIM... but that vulnerability is HIS work in us, not ours.
However if faith (that vulnerability) is our work than we CAN do something to earn HIS grace and the statement is wrong.
Having faith or not depends on HIS will, not ours, but if depends on us then we CAN do something do earn his grace.

Thus we're left with ELECTION.




VETERAN...

So you're saying that HE elects some and makes distinction? Leaves some to it's own luck and saves irrefutably his sent ones?
Does HE loves them more then the rest? Why do only they get this blessing?

Veteran...
If this GOD's distinction does not seen wrong to your eyes why don't you accept that elect are all the ones that are saved?
And why do you always round up "elect" so "elect sent"? The bible doesn't!!

Matt 24:24:
No it does not signifies that distinction... it signifies ELECT without chance of being lost... this is not enough to support your theory.

Mat 22:14
Here what we see is that ONLY THE ELECT is allow in heaven.
If elect are only the ministers then only the ministers are saved?
Not only refutes you but it also proves me right... all the saved ones are the elect, not just ministers.

Called is every man on earth... we call them all, but no all are chosen.
This is not the distinction we were talking about... we were talking bout the distinction between ELECT and MINISTERS... you're changing it... this does not support your theory either.

All of your devil's rebellion is wrong... no such thing in the bible.
If you want to prove me wrong than refute what I've wrote in because you have NOT done it.
You just chose to see ONE phrase which was meant to prove that LITERALLY it's not about the DEVIL and ignore what I really said out of it... what you did was dissimulation... you answered a starting phrase and ignored all that kill's your theory.
First refute what I've shown, than you can talk about Devils rebellion.

 

[aspen]

Aspen: Since you are under the impression that I am dodging your questions and failing to address what you have written, I will address your posts line by line, when I have the time to do so.


S: And good in that same context means what? Natural blessing? Little by little you erase GOD from the equation.

Aspen: I am not pulling 'natural disaster or calamity out of thin air. Even the website carm.org, which is extremely hostile to my own church agrees with me on this concept: http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

Once again, evil is not a force - it cannot be created - it is a result of misusing Good. Fornication is a misuse of marital union, lies are a misuse of truth, etc.


S: It's EVIL Aspen... it's written EVIL...

Aspen: Have you forgotten that language is dynamic? It is not concrete like a math equation. You have to take many factors into consideration when interpreting scripture - God's character, God's love for humanity and His creation, the translation from an ancient language into the vernacular. Hermeneutics is not a an exact science.


S: The context??? REALLY??? The context makes even more noticeable... What is the message in that chapter? What is HE saying?
Why does I says I creates EVIL AND DARKNESS? What is the point of saying it?

Aspen:

1. Absolutely.
2. The message of the chapter is God's sovereignty, not His morality.
3. The person who wrote Isaiah is inspired to write about God's omnipotence
4. He is telling the world that God is omnipotent - powerful enough to control all natural disasters, famine, plagues, etc. This message was very comforting to ancient people because it made sense of a seemingly chaotic world.


S: I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Isaiah 45:5-7

Aspen: Yep. God is in charge.


S: Yet you say "It's not HIM, someone else created evil". AMAZING...[\quote]

Aspen: No. I believe that God is omnipotent. He is in charge of every part of His creation. This might help you understand, even though it is a poor analogy. Humanity has the power to use cold for our purposes, like refrigeration, etc, even though it is a lack of heat - we cannot create it! All we can do is make space for it by taking away energy.


S: A dictator? What is your problem with being ruled by HIM? Why is that a problem to you? Do you want freedom from HIM?[\quote]

Aspen:

1. Yes, a dictator.
2. I have no problem being ruled by a Good God. I do have a problem being ruled by a evil god and you should too.
3. If God created evil, instead of us, He ceases to be moral and knowable and trustworthy and faithful. You cannot know or trust anyone one whose character is unstable.
4. Freedom? Freedom from an unstable character? Impossible. Freedom from a Good character - that is the promise of our Good God.

 

[logabe]

Well that's just it, Christ's elect sent ones cannot be deceived by the coming Antichrist, with Matt.24:24 as our main example. But I speak of those He sent, and not all believers.

And there have been many brethren over the centuries that have fallen directly into heresies against The Gospel. It's still happenning today, and the main heresy of this present world will be their falling away to worship the coming Antichrist instead of waiting on Jesus to return.

Another thing is that evil did not originate from our Heavenly Father, which in the Biblical sense on this matter involves the breaking of God's laws, for that's how Apostle John defined sin. The devil sinned from the beginning John said, which is a pointer to the very first sin having been done by the devil, and not by flesh man.

Gen. 3:1 says,

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made.

Hummm... looks like that is where it came from.

Now... Who's responsible?

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[veteran]

VETERAN...

So you're saying that HE elects some and makes distinction? Leaves some to it's own luck and saves irrefutably his sent ones?
Does HE loves them more then the rest? Why do only they get this blessing?

Yes, God elects some and makes a distinction with them. Ever heard of Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, Christ's Apostles? You act just like you haven't.

Does He leave some "to it's own luck"? Are you a believer on God through His Son, or do you follow secularists which follow after ideas of lady luck and fortune and leave God out of their lives?

Does God make His elect more... than those not of His elect? Well, what is the sign of a 'double-portion' to His elect about per Old Testament history? Why didn't He do that for everyone in Israel?

Veteran...
If this GOD's distinction does not seen wrong to your eyes why don't you accept that elect are all the ones that are saved?
And why do you always round up "elect" so "elect sent"? The bible doesn't!!

Your first phrase is messed up grammatically, not sure what you're saying with that, something about whether I see God being wrong or not with choosing a group of very elect over others. If that's what you mean, then no, God was not wrong in choosing a group of elect servants that He SENT.

John 17:18
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
(KJV)

That's our Lord Jesus speaking there. That word "sent" is Greek apostello. It's where the word for Apostle comes from. So how many times do we read that in God's Word???

So what was it you were saying that The Bible doesn't teach that?

I think I've played this useless game with you long enough here. Apparently you... have a problem with God's concept of election of Patriarchs, OT prophets, and NT Apostles per His Holy Writ, because you clearly do not understand it. The only reason you could be confused about it is because you don't do enough Bible study, but instead listen to others instead.

Gen. 3:1 says,

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made.

Hummm... looks like that is where it came from.

Now... Who's responsible?

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

I guess you didn't read my posts completely either.

By the time that old serpent (the devil per Rev.12:9) was in God's Garden to tempt Adam and Eve, the devil had already... rebelled against God in the time of old (prior to Adam and Eve).

And per God in Ezekiel 28 where He used the prince and king of Tyrus also as a symbol for the devil, He revealed to us that He ORIGINALLY CREATED SATAN PERFECT.

Ezek 28:13-15
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)

So why are you blaming God for the origin of evil in the beginning when it was the devil who first sinned against Him in rebellion??? You can read that 15th verse, and put it together with that one who was in God's Garden of Eden can't you?

 

[logabe]

Yes, God elects some and makes a distinction with them. Ever heard of Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, Christ's Apostles? You act just like you haven't.

Does He leave some "to it's own luck"? Are you a believer on God through His Son, or do you follow secularists which follow after ideas of lady luck and fortune and leave God out of their lives?

Does God make His elect more... than those not of His elect? Well, what is the sign of a 'double-portion' to His elect about per Old Testament history? Why didn't He do that for everyone in Israel?


Your first phrase is messed up grammatically, not sure what you're saying with that, something about whether I see God being wrong or not with choosing a group of very elect over others. If that's what you mean, then no, God was not wrong in choosing a group of elect servants that He SENT.

John 17:18
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
(KJV)

That's our Lord Jesus speaking there. That word "sent" is Greek apostello. It's where the word for Apostle comes from. So how many times do we read that in God's Word???

So what was it you were saying that The Bible doesn't teach that?

I think I've played this useless game with you long enough here. Apparently you... have a problem with God's concept of election of Patriarchs, OT prophets, and NT Apostles per His Holy Writ, because you clearly do not understand it. The only reason you could be confused about it is because you don't do enough Bible study, but instead listen to others instead.


I guess you didn't read my posts completely either.

By the time that old serpent (the devil per Rev.12:9) was in God's Garden to tempt Adam and Eve, the devil had already... rebelled against God in the time of old (prior to Adam and Eve).

And per God in Ezekiel 28 where He used the prince and king of Tyrus also as a symbol for the devil, He revealed to us that He ORIGINALLY CREATED SATAN PERFECT.

Ezek 28:13-15
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)

So why are you blaming God for the origin of evil in the beginning when it was the devil who first sinned against Him in rebellion??? You can read that 15th verse, and put it together with that one who was in God's Garden of Eden can't you?

I'm not blaming God... I'm accepting what the scripture says. God created the "Old Serpent"
more crafty than any beast of the field. We can either accept or reject what God has told us
about how the devil was created in the beginning.

It's very simple... Jesus told us he was a murderer from the beginning in John 8:44, which
correlates with Gen. 3:4-5.

44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the
desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning,
and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.
Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for
he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus said plainly that he was a murderer from the beginning and he has never had any
truth in him, but he was always a liar. 1st John 3:8, confirms what Jesus said.

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil ; for the devil has
sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this
purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Hummm... still looks like God made the "Old Serpent" that way in the beginning... I think
God has a plan.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Sargento]

ASPEN...

Aspen: Since you are under the impression that I am dodging your questions and failing to address what you have written, I will address your posts line by line, when I have the time to do so.


S: And good in that same context means what? Natural blessing? Little by little you erase GOD from the equation.

Aspen: I am not pulling 'natural disaster or calamity out of thin air. Even the website carm.org, which is extremely hostile to my own church agrees with me on this concept: http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

Once again, evil is not a force - it cannot be created - it is a result of misusing Good. Fornication is a misuse of marital union, lies are a misuse of truth, etc.


S: It's EVIL Aspen... it's written EVIL...

Aspen: Have you forgotten that language is dynamic? It is not concrete like a math equation. You have to take many factors into consideration when interpreting scripture - God's character, God's love for humanity and His creation, the translation from an ancient language into the vernacular. Hermeneutics is not a an exact science.


S: The context??? REALLY??? The context makes even more noticeable... What is the message in that chapter? What is HE saying?
Why does I says I creates EVIL AND DARKNESS? What is the point of saying it?

Aspen:

1. Absolutely.
2. The message of the chapter is God's sovereignty, not His morality.
3. The person who wrote Isaiah is inspired to write about God's omnipotence
4. He is telling the world that God is omnipotent - powerful enough to control all natural disasters, famine, plagues, etc. This message was very comforting to ancient people because it made sense of a seemingly chaotic world.


S:
I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Isaiah 45:5-7

Aspen: Yep. God is in charge.


S: Yet you say "It's not HIM, someone else created evil". AMAZING...[\quote]

Aspen: No. I believe that God is omnipotent. He is in charge of every part of His creation. This might help you understand, even though it is a poor analogy. Humanity has the power to use cold for our purposes, like refrigeration, etc, even though it is a lack of heat - we cannot create it! All we can do is make space for it by taking away energy.


S: A dictator? What is your problem with being ruled by HIM? Why is that a problem to you? Do you want freedom from HIM?[\quote]

Aspen:

1. Yes, a dictator.
2. I have no problem being ruled by a Good God. I do have a problem being ruled by a evil god and you should too.
3. If God created evil, instead of us, He ceases to be moral and knowable and trustworthy and faithful. You cannot know or trust anyone one whose character is unstable.
4. Freedom? Freedom from an unstable character? Impossible. Freedom from a Good character - that is the promise of our Good God.

So, you'll only subject to HIM if HE acts in a way you think its fair ... you think you're able to judge HIS justice and fairness??
HE is the creator of all and you want to be able judge HIM??? ...worse, you want to judge HIM by HE's actions making him fair or not by what HE does, no wonder ... you justify man by works so much that even to GOD you look with that same eyes to recognize justice or injustice in HIM.... that's why you cannot accept HIS word; because your just GOD is not the one in the bible.

... you talk like the ones GOD killed in the desert with Moses.

My friend, it's obvious you do not believe in HIS own word...

Now evil does not exists even??? Is that what you're saying?
My friend, the evil that exists, whatever you want to call it is created by GOD... but if it does not exists then what does devil do? Less Good?
Whatever evil exists GOD creates it... if evil does not exists you cannot put it on the devil either, but whatever exists it's GOD's creation.



LOGABE...

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made.

Hummm... looks like that is where it came from.

Now... Who's responsible?

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Exactly... this is shown so many times... it's amazing when someone claims to believe in GOD's word and then tries to refute this.
VETERAN...

Yes, God elects some and makes a distinction with them. Ever heard of Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, Christ's Apostles? You act just like you haven't.

Does He leave some "to it's own luck"? Are you a believer on God through His Son, or do you follow secularists which follow after ideas of lady luck and fortune and leave God out of their lives?

Does God make His elect more... than those not of His elect? Well, what is the sign of a 'double-portion' to His elect about per Old Testament history? Why didn't He do that for everyone in Israel?


Your first phrase is messed up grammatically, not sure what you're saying with that, something about whether I see God being wrong or not with choosing a group of very elect over others. If that's what you mean, then no, God was not wrong in choosing a group of elect servants that He SENT.

John 17:18
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
(KJV)

That's our Lord Jesus speaking there. That word "sent" is Greek apostello. It's where the word for Apostle comes from. So how many times do we read that in God's Word???

So what was it you were saying that The Bible doesn't teach that?

I think I've played this useless game with you long enough here. Apparently you... have a problem with God's concept of election of Patriarchs, OT prophets, and NT Apostles per His Holy Writ, because you clearly do not understand it. The only reason you could be confused about it is because you don't do enough Bible study, but instead listen to others instead.


I guess you didn't read my posts completely either.

By the time that old serpent (the devil per Rev.12:9) was in God's Garden to tempt Adam and Eve, the devil had already... rebelled against God in the time of old (prior to Adam and Eve).

And per God in Ezekiel 28 where He used the prince and king of Tyrus also as a symbol for the devil, He revealed to us that He ORIGINALLY CREATED SATAN PERFECT.

Ezek 28:13-15
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)

So why are you blaming God for the origin of evil in the beginning when it was the devil who first sinned against Him in rebellion??? You can read that 15th verse, and put it together with that one who was in God's Garden of Eden can't you?

The double portion is for Christ, not the ministers...
The double portion is for the first born... even according to the law... don't you know this?



What I said is that the elect are not only the ministers... but all the ones who will be saved.
Of course the ministers are part of it too... do not change my words Veteran.



About the origin of evil GOD made it... did I blamed GOD?? But why can't you accept it without seeing blame in HIM?
Why would HE be blamed or guilt by doing evil?
When HE creates evil HE IS SAINT.

About Ezek 28:13-15... you have my questions to refute yet before you can use it... it's not me who's ignoring what others write.
Much less GOD when HE says HE created evil.


LOGABE...

I'm not blaming God... I'm accepting what the scripture says. God created the "Old Serpent"
more crafty than any beast of the field. We can either accept or reject what God has told us
about how the devil was created in the beginning.

It's very simple... Jesus told us he was a murderer from the beginning in John 8:44, which
correlates with Gen. 3:4-5.

44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the
desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning,
and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.
Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for
he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus said plainly that he was a murderer from the beginning and he has never had any
truth in him, but he was always a liar. 1st John 3:8, confirms what Jesus said.

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil ; for the devil has
sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this
purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Hummm... still looks like God made the "Old Serpent" that way in the beginning... I think
God has a plan.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Again Logabe... exactly.

It's obvious isn't it?

Not wanting to change the subject but to understand you better... So the devil had (or has) no free will?

 

[veteran]

I'm not blaming God... I'm accepting what the scripture says. God created the "Old Serpent"
more crafty than any beast of the field. We can either accept or reject what God has told us
about how the devil was created in the beginning.

You're still not getting it right.

By the time Satan was in the role as "that old serpent" in God's Garden of Eden, he had already... rebelled against God. The Ezek.28 Scripture about him being in God's Garden of Eden is PRIOR... to the serpent idea, prior to Adam and Eve, and prior to Satan's rebellion.

That Ezek.28 Scripture is God showing us that He did not create Satan evil, that He originally created Satan a covering cherub that was perfect in his ways, until ... he rebelled against God in coveting His throne.

So you cannot assign the concept of 'evil' with God, because that Scripture reveals God did not originally create Satan evil, but instead He originally created him good.

This is why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a symbol for Satan himself. God created him good, but he became evil.

And because evil will be no more in God's future Eternity according to Scripture like Psalms 5, and Rev.20:14-15, that also shows that evil began when Satan rebelled against God.

 

[Sargento]

Sure...


Thou {art} the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee {so}: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou {wast} perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never {shalt} thou {be} any more. {a terror: Heb. terrors}
Ezequiel 28:14-19


But after having much merchandise and traffick in heaven and after being devoured from inside out to never exist again he showed up again in Eden???

Hard to kill this snake, isn't it??

 

[aspen]

You are making false accusations against me. I am not claiming that evil does not exist. I am rightfully describing the nature of evil, which has been viewed by church theologians as 'lesser' or a broken form of good. You are choosing to ignore your history and create your own interpretations of scripture - what gives you the authority to twist scripture into the heresy of dualism?