Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[GEN2REV]

Thank you very much. You are the first to offer an answer.

However, the question is not the Scriptural teaching of how a man sins by temptation of the devil, so that he receives lust in his heart to do so. The question is how that lusting nature is now put into the seed of man, so that all men are born with lusting to sin in their soul and/or flesh.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

What you are saying is that Christ has now granted the god of this world power to make man with Christ, since nothing is made with Him. And the devil's part is to put his sin nature into the souls and/or flesh of man.

If the devil is said to be doing it on his own, then it is nothing he is making in man, because nothing can be made without Christ: on his own the devil can make no sin nature in man.

And so, for the devil to be making man with lust to sin against Christ, it is Christ Himself that has now granted Lucifer power to do what he lusted for in the beginning: to become a creator of his own creatures like God.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

The sinful lust to become a creator in opposition to God, is not granted by Christ to the devil.

The god of this world is now a creator of sinful creatures in his own image, so that we are born from the womb to hate Jesus Christ.

And Christ willingly participates in it: Christ and Lucifer are now co-creators of sin babes in the womb.

Well, God does Create evil.

Isaiah 45:7

So, whether this sin nature came into the human DNA once in the garden, and has continued to duplicate in every single human since, or whether it is being placed there over and over throughout history (which is a very real possibility), the real question isn't so much how as why?

Why would God allow, or DO, this?

My opinion is that it actually can be simplified into layman's terms.

God is purifying His children.

He is either gleaning the purest, and most loyal, of souls from this earthly test, or refiner's pot, or He is simply separating His children from the devil's children by way of tempting them in both directions.

They are tempted to do evil, while simultaneously encouraged to do good. Their soul is pulled in both directions, but only the Truest, or most pure, come out righteous in the end.

The devil pulls us in one direction and the Spirit of God pulls in the other.

Makes perfect sense to me and lines up well with Scripture as a whole.

There is an analogous American Indian parable:

"Two wolves are fighting. Which one wins?"

 

[face2face]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I understand not all jehovah worshipping idolators call themselves JW's.

I've also already been down the long and winding road of perverting all other Scriptures, after these two simple ones are denied.

I don't bother going down that endless road anymore:

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.

I don't argue over and over again just for argument's sake. It's unedifying and pointless.

It's all you people do, because you really love to show off your self-learned Scholarship, that only results in not knowing the true God, nor having His dear Son nor His Spirit dwelling with in you.

Faith ought to be self taught otherwise you are simply regurgitating someones else error and building on their foundation. You quoting John 1 tells me what? You provided no explanation of your belief and as you know there are many ways to interpret that section, some based on Scripture and others based on creeds of men...the later is where most Christians land. Here is the problem; if we cannot agree on who God and Jesus Christ are and we cannot agree on why God raised up a man in the line of Adam, or the principles of atonement which saves, then what hope is there for one of us? This is why it's important to 2 Timothy 2:15 otherwise you risk perverting of the Scriptures as you rightly say. Your heretick quote goes both ways which is why honesty is essential when speaking about the One Faith One Hope and One baptism; without honesty we are lost already.

I hope you find "the way" spoken of in the Acts of the Apostles and we end up at the same destination.

Blessings
F2F

 

[face2face]

The devil pulls us in one direction and the Spirit of God pulls in the other.

If you take devil to mean flesh as a false accuser toward God then you would understand Hebrews 2:14; however is you mean devil as some supernatural agent of evil then you have just finished rightly showing how God forms, guides, influences darkness / evil to His own end and has no need of another god to do this. I'm perplexed how often I see a Christians rightly handle a text only to destroy it with these man made notions. 2 Timothy 2:15 should guide you into truth and you certainly have enough tools at hand to work this truth out.

F2F

 

[GEN2REV]

If you take devil to mean flesh as a false accuser toward God then you would understand Hebrews 2:14; however is you mean devil as some supernatural agent of evil then you have just finished rightly showing how God forms, guides, influences darkness / evil to His own end and has no need of another god to do this. I'm perplexed how often I see a Christians rightly handle a text only to destroy it with these man made notions. 2 Timothy 2:15 should guide you into truth and you certainly have enough tools at hand to work this truth out.

F2F

Right because when I read plain Scripture, I need someone like you to explain it to me so I can then have your understanding of it. Correct?

If you believe the devil is just figurative language in the Bible, you are plainly a fool.

I don't believe that's the case though. I believe you are yet another person here only to push agenda and diminish the Truth of Scripture in any and every way you can.

 

[Jack]

I said those babies who are unsaved. Please, don't put words in my mouth!!! You bear false witness!

Those who believe me are the children of God.

On the other hand, those who do NOT trust Psalms 58 fall under
1 Corinthians 2:14.

To God Be The Glory

Unsaved babies? lol
Those who believe babies will burn in Hell are much more likely to burn in Hell than any baby.

 

[Jack]

Okay I read it again and it still reads... thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Amen! ALL things!

 

[Peterlag]

Amen! ALL things!

It's not all things in the universe. It's all things pertaining to thrones, powers, rulers and authorities.

 

[Jack]

It's not all things in the universe. It's all things pertaining to thrones, powers, rulers and authorities.

Says Kingdom Hall?

Col 1 By Him all things were created!

Says God!

Jesus is God the Creator!

 

[Peterlag]

Says Kingdom Hall?

Col 1 By Him all things were created!

Says God!

Jesus is God the Creator!

A rich young ruler came to Christ and called him a “Good Teacher” (Luke 18:18). Jesus replied with “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone” (Luke 18:19). Why did Jesus not compliment this young ruler for calling him “good” if Jesus was telling people he was God? Instead Jesus gave the man a mild rebuke and said that no one was good except “God” and this is evidence that Jesus was not teaching that he was God. Jesus was very quick to make the distinction between himself and God, and in doing so affirmed what this Jewish man would have already believed, which was that there is one God, and Jesus was certainly not that one God.

Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in favor with God. But if Jesus were God and part of the Trinity then he could not grow in favor with himself or the Father or the Holy Spirit. Jesus could only grow in favor with God if he himself were not God because the mutual love and blessing among the members of the Trinity would have been eternal and unchanging. When it comes to assigning positions of authority in the coming Kingdom of Christ, Jesus said those who will sit next to him as people with authority “is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23). Those positions of authority would be his to give if Jesus were God and co-equal with the Father.

And right here I think it's interesting to note that the popularity of the phrase “Deity of Christ” never appears in the Bible, nor is Christ ever called the “Deity” in the Scriptures. Colossians 2:9 says "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This verse is stating that God placed all His fullness in Christ, which is quite different from saying that Christ is himself God. In Colossians 1:19 we read “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.” That is true, but the fact that Christ has “all the fullness” of God does not make him God. Ephesians 3:19 says that Christians should be filled with “all the fullness of God” and that does not mean Christians will somehow become God.

 

[Jack]

A rich young ruler came to Christ and called him a “Good Teacher” (Luke 18:18). Jesus replied with “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone” (Luke 18:19). Why did Jesus not compliment this young ruler for calling him “good” if Jesus was telling people he was God? Instead Jesus gave the man a mild rebuke and said that no one was good except “God” and this is evidence that Jesus was not teaching that he was God. Jesus was very quick to make the distinction between himself and God, and in doing so affirmed what this Jewish man would have already believed, which was that there is one God, and Jesus was certainly not that one God.

Are you calling Jesus a sinner???

Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in favor with God. But if Jesus were God and part of the Trinity then he could not grow in favor with himself or the Father or the Holy Spirit. Jesus could only grow in favor with God if he himself were not God because the mutual love and blessing among the members of the Trinity would have been eternal and unchanging. When it comes to assigning positions of authority in the coming Kingdom of Christ, Jesus said those who will sit next to him as people with authority “is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23). Those positions of authority would be his to give if Jesus were God and co-equal with the Father.

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Father, Son and Holy Spirit, SINGULAR! Name is singular. Guess Who's Name they baptized in. Jesus!

And right here I think it's interesting to note that the popularity of the phrase “Deity of Christ” never appears in the Bible, nor is Christ ever called the “Deity” in the Scriptures. Colossians 2:9 says "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This verse is stating that God placed all His fullness in Christ, which is quite different from saying that Christ is himself God. In Colossians 1:19 we read “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.” That is true, but the fact that Christ has “all the fullness” of God does not make him God. Ephesians 3:19 says that Christians should be filled with “all the fullness of God” and that does not mean Christians will somehow become God.

Sounds like Kingdom Hall!

"a Child is born"
"a Son"
"Mighty God"

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly referring to Jesus!

 

[Peterlag]

Are you calling Jesus a sinner???

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Father, Son and Holy Spirit, SINGULAR! Name is singular. Guess Who's Name they baptized in. Jesus!

Sounds like Kingdom Hall!

"a Child is born"
"a Son"
"Mighty God"

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly referring to Jesus!

You do realize that Jesus is not called the "Everlasting Father" anywhere else in Scripture? And that even Trinitarians deny that Jesus is the "Everlasting Father." The word translated "everlasting" is actually "age" and the correct translation is that Jesus will be called "father of the coming age." In the culture of the Bible, anyone who began anything or was very important to something was called its father.

 

[Jack]

You do realize that Jesus is not called the "Everlasting Father" anywhere else in Scripture? And that even Trinitarians deny that Jesus is the "Everlasting Father." The word translated "everlasting" is actually "age" and the correct translation is that Jesus will be called "father of the coming age." In the culture of the Bible, anyone who began anything or was very important to something was called its father.

If this isn't Jesus then who is it? It is indeed Jesus!

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Jack]

Micah 5
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."

Again, that's Jesus!

 

[face2face]

Right because when I read plain Scripture, I need someone like you to explain it to me so I can then have your understanding of it. Correct?

If you believe the devil is just figurative language in the Bible, you are plainly a fool.

I don't believe that's the case though. I believe you are yet another person here only to push agenda and diminish the Truth of Scripture in any and every way you can.

Well, not figurative Gen2 it's just a word which means false accuser which in many respects can be anyone depending on the context.

The word “devil” is a corruption of the Greek word which signifies slanderer, false accuser, or calumniator. It's correctly translated only in three instances in the NT.

not slanderers (diaboloi) in 1 Timothy 3:11
not false accusers (diaboloi) in Titus 2:3
False accusers (diaboloi) incontinent in 2 Timothy 3:3

The translators were forced to do so because of the context being so overwhelmingly obvious they had to use its correct terminology.

You can check this for yourself...I am not showing you something that any lexicon wouldn't support.

Old women, deacons wives etc. cannot be said to be evil creatures - so if you are truly keen on discovering truth you are more the able to search this out for yourself. Go in search of the context and try and prove it for yourself...dont take my word for it...i've done the work and can show you the understanding but its up to you to labour to show yourself approved.

F2F

 

[Jack]

Well, not figurative Gen2 it's just a word which means false accuser which in many respects can be anyone depending on the context.

The word “devil” is a corruption of the Greek word which signifies slanderer, false accuser, or calumniator. It's correctly translated only in three instances in the NT.

not slanderers (diaboloi) in 1 Timothy 3:11
not false accusers (diaboloi) in Titus 2:3
False accusers (diaboloi) incontinent in 2 Timothy 3:3

The translators were forced to do so because of the context being so overwhelmingly obvious they had to use its correct terminology.

You can check this for yourself...I am not showing you something that any lexicon wouldn't support.

Old women, deacons wives etc. cannot be said to be evil creatures - so if you are truly keen on discovering truth you are more the able to search this out for yourself. Go in search of the context and try and prove it for yourself...dont take my word for it...i've done the work and can show you the understanding but its up to you to labour to show yourself approved.

F2F

You don't believe in Satan?
You don't believe in "the everlasting fire"?
You don't believe in Jesus God?
Do you believe in the WatchTower?

 

[Peterlag]

If this isn't Jesus then who is it? It is indeed Jesus!

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I already explained to you about the proper translations of the words "everlasting father." Did you want me to tell you what I know about the words "mighty god" in that verse. Here maybe this will help...

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

• Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
• Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kurios is "owner."
• Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kurios is "master."
• Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
• A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kurios is "sir."
• The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
• Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."

 

[Jack]

I already explained to you about the proper translations of the words "everlasting father." Did you want me to tell you what I know about the words "mighty god" in that verse. Here maybe this will help...

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

• Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
• Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kurios is "owner."
• Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kurios is "master."
• Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
• A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kurios is "sir."
• The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
• Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."

And I explained to you that all English Bibles say you are wrong. Who told you that you're qualified to rewrite our Bible? Kindgom Hall maybe? They're expert deceivers, like Satan.

 

[Peterlag]

And I explained to you that all English Bibles say you are wrong. Who told you that you're qualified to rewrite our Bible? Kindgom Hall maybe? They're expert deceivers, like Satan.

You probably mean Kingdom Hall. I don't know anything about them, but I do know the Scriptures and the power of God. What part of Isaiah 9:6 do all the English Bibles say that I'm wrong? Is it the "everlasting father" that means "age" or the "might god" that you're referring to? We don't need to rewrite the Bible to understand it. We just need to understand the culture it was written in. The phrase "Mighty God" can also be better translated. Those who are familiar with the Semitic languages know that a man who is acting with God's authority can be called "god." Although English makes a clear distinction between "God" and "god" the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters cannot. A better translation for the English would be "mighty hero" or "divine hero." Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translate the phrase as "divine hero" in their Bibles.

 

[Peterlag]

Do you even understand the meaning of the word "principle" i.e. if there was no law given to Adam at the Garden, there would be no transgression of disobedience? Sin therefore entered the world and even the earth groaneth!
Below, you will find chapter and verse that explains what I'm trying to express.

Romans 4:15 reads:
"Because the law worketh wrath, for where no law is, there is no transgression."
Romans 5:12-21 reads:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Scriptures above are self explanatory.

To God Be The Glory

May I add to this that...

I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so in my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[JunChosen]

Unsaved babies? lol
Those who believe babies will burn in Hell are much more likely to burn in Hell than any baby.

I'm sorry your understanding of Psalms 58 is flawed. You supposedly think through the lens of your human eyes and wisdom that babies are innocent, yet the opposite is true according to God. Who do you think wrote Psalms 58 and if you say God, so why don't you believe what He says about babies instead of relying in your human wisdom?

Below you will find one of many such concepts of man's dilemma concerning babies.
Romans 5:12-21 reads:
12) Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that is to come.
15) But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
17) For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offense may abound. But when sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 3:10 reads:
"As it is written, There is none righteous no not one." (no exceptions, not even babies).

It reminds me of the story of how God came to Abraham to tell him that He will destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for their cry of great sin has reached all the way to heaven (Genesis 18). To make a long story short we read that Abraham pleaded with God that if there were 50 righteous would God still destroy the cities and God said if there are fifty righteous He will not destroy the cities. Again Abraham pleaded if there were all the way down to ten will God still destroy the cities? Guess what happened?

It's obvious that during those days there were at least over ten babies living at that time, yet God still destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why? BECAUSE of Romans 3 and Psalms 58!!!

DON'T TRY TO BE SMARTER THAN GOD!

Paul said, "LET GOD BE TRUE AND ALL MEN LIARS."

To God Be The Glory