Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[robert derrick]

People keep trying to tell how a sin nature was put into man, with a process for which man is now born with it.

But no one has ever said who does so. Until we have a creator and maker of something new, then there is no such thing that actually exists.

Except in the imagination of people.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Yes, when God pronounced the punishments for Adam and Eve, he said nothing about placing a “sin nature” on them.

The scriptures only says that we were made sinners, not that a sin nature was placed upon us.

All have sinned.

But all do not continue in sin.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, when God pronounced the punishments for Adam and Eve, he said nothing about placing a “sin nature” on them.

The scriptures only says that we were made sinners, not that a sin nature was placed upon us.

True. I see no Scripture saying that there is a creator of a sin nature nor spirit, at creation of the soul and body of man, nor before, during, nor after the transgression of the first man on earth.

One Scripture says death has passed upon all men, for all have sinned, not because all are created with sin in the spirit or flesh of man.

But who then would this creator be?

All have sinned.

But all do not continue in sin.

And all have sinned by their own lust and enticed by temptation. (James 1)

If there is a creator therefore of sin within a person, it is the soul that lusts from their own heart and is enticed: After birth.

And it's in the heart, not in the flesh.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[PinSeeker]

Our sin nature was not "given to us" or "placed upon us" in any way. But mankind did acquire the position of being at enmity with God and thus prone to sin through Adam's act of disobedience in Genesis 3. Actually, Adam and Eve acquired it, and we are in that position from birth. This natural state was/is passed from generation to generation from our first parents ~ Adam, of course, and Eve, "the mother of all the living" (Genesis 3:20). This is the natural human condition.

• "...the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)
• "...the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth." (Genesis 8:21)
• "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
• "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5)
• "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned ~ every one ~ to his own way..." (Isaiah 53:6)
• "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders." (Matthew 15:18-19)
• "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness." (Mark 7:20-23)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[ScottA]

People keep trying to tell how a sin nature was put into man, with a process for which man is now born with it.

But no one has ever said who did so. Until we have a creator and maker of something new, then there is no such thing that actually exists.

Except in the imagination of people.

You missed it.

Do a word study of Eve, Cain, and Able...and you will see that the giver of life created a spear to kill the sons of Adam.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things
​

 

[robert derrick]

Our sin nature was not "given to us" or "placed upon us" in any way.

Agreed. Not born with it spiritually or naturally. No creator of it, and putting it into man's physical seed and flesh. It doesn't exist.

But mankind did acquire the position of being at enmity with God and thus prone to sin through Adam's act of disobedience in Genesis 3. Actually, Adam and Eve acquired it, and we are in that position from birth.

True: Every soul that sins makes themselves a sinner separated from Christ, and now has a natural lust for the world in the heart, rather than being partakers of the divine nature in Christ with a pure heart.

The lusting and sinning must be repented of by the soul, that recieved lust in the heart to do so.

, and we are in that position from birth. .

True. All babes entering into the world are lightened by Christ with the power to choose good or evil. And all souls have chosen the evil at some time on earth, and corrupted their souls with lust in the heart, except Jesus.

There is the record of this being so in Scripture, but not a sin nature born with, to naturally put us in a position of choosing the evil rather than the good.

This natural state was/is passed from generation to generation from our first parents ~ Adam, of course, and Eve, "the mother of all the living" (Genesis 3:20). This is the natural human condition

I can also agree with you here. While the natural state of mortal flesh is passed on by birth naturally, the natural stage of the world has changed since man first began to sin on earth.

Instead of a world doing good a naturally on earth, the natural state began to change into doing evil, so that all the world was only imagining and doing evil, except Noah.

The natural state of the world of doing evil rather than good, as at the beginning, became the new normal on earth among men and remains today, except in the body of Christ.

The natural state of the world changed when man began sinning and sinning entered into the world, so that the whole world remains lying in wickedness today. Unlike Adam and Eve and even Abel and Seth, all clean and perfectly created souls are born with God's call to do good, but into a whole world of sinning.

So instead of a garden for doing good, all souls are born into a world for choosing evil. But all such souls today are the created the same as in the beginning: with power to choose good or evil, one way or the others, and God's call to choose the good only.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Since Christ has never made nor shapen anything in sin, and there is no such thing put into the spirit and flesh of man by Christ at birth, then this Scripture is simply acknowledging the obvious, that all men, since Adam sinned, are now shapen and conceived and born into a sinful world of iniquity that is at enmity with Christ, rather than into a garden of the Lord with His admonition to do righteousness on earth.

David writes this after his grievous adultery and murder, and was not providing an excuse for it, by claiming a sin nature that made him naturally do it, but rather is acknowledging that even with the best of men, the cards of the world are now stacked against every babe coming into the world, to choose the evil with the world.

The natural condition of man's creation has not changed, but the natural condition of the world has changed from doing good to doing evil, since man began to sin and to continue sinning in it.

Sin entered into the world by man sinning, and so now the whole world is full of sinning, though not in the body of Christ.

The natural state of man sinning in this world, is not by being born with a nature to sin, but rather is the current norm for souls on earth in mortal flesh.

 

[robert derrick]

You missed it.

Do a word study of Eve, Cain, and Able...and you will see that the giver of life created a spear to kill the sons of Adam.

I don't do word studies, but only to know the meaning of an English word written in Scripture for me.

And I certainly don't go to other languages to prove any doctrine, especially one I've never heard of before, such as this created 'killing spear' theory.

If you have Scripture for it plainly written in my own language, then I'd be glad to look at it.

In the meantime, if you are speaking of the mortal nature of all flesh, whereby Christ creates for all living creatures on earth, then that is just natural life of the body on earth: Mortality. Nothing righteous nor sinful about it.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things
​

True, but the Lord does not create sinning, nor even tempts to sin:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

And so the evil He creates is simply them that He creates to do good, but instead chooses the evil, because He creates man and angels with power to do so.

But He also creates angels and men with the desire to do good and please God in the beginning as babes pure in heart, so that like the angels man must purposely corrupt himself at his youth with lust for sin in the flesh.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The same way Christ yesterday created Adam and Eve, is the same way Christ creates all souls and flesh of men today: for His good pleasure, and lightening us as babes come into the world with His light to please Him.

 

[ScottA]

I don't do word studies, but only to know the meaning of an English word written in Scripture for me.

And I certainly don't go to other languages to prove any doctrine, especially one I've never heard of before, such as this created 'killing spear' theory.

If you have Scripture for it plainly written in my own language, then I'd be glad to look at it.

So...in your language demands, is death not synonymous with sin according God who said, "you shall surely die?"

 

[robert derrick]

So...in your language demands, is death not synonymous with sin according God who said, "you shall surely die?"

True. When any soul sins today, that soul still dies, even as the first man when he sinned.

The question is who created a sin nature born in man from birth to choose evil rather than good?

All flesh is made naturally and mortal, neither with sin nor righteous nature, just naturally mortal.

And the soul and spirit of man was not made with sin, and if man is now made with sin, who is doing so?

Who brought this sin nature, calling, or spirit into the mind or flesh of man after man sinned? Who made the changing to Christ's creation?

 

[PinSeeker]

When any soul sins today, that soul still dies, even as the first man when he sinned.

No, that soul is born sinful. Not having sinned, per se, because at the moment of birth, the person has done nothing good or bad. But everyone is born with the same sinful nature ~ proneness/propensity to sin, and thus dead in sin, and in need of salvation.

And... Now, I don't mean to throw you for a loop, here... <but you may go all loopy on me for this > ...but actually, to God, the great I AM, Who is present in the eternal now, fundamentally, we have sinned even at conception.

The question is who created a sin nature born in man from birth to choose evil rather than good?

Nobody. But God warned Adam that he would fall into this state in the very day he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and die he did. And as the federal head of the human race, that state is acquired even from conception by all men, male and female alike.

All flesh is made naturally and mortal, neither with sin nor righteous nature, just naturally mortal.

Nope. Mortal, of course, yes, but with a sinful nature, prone to sin and with no righteousness, but even unrighteousness, imputed to us through Adam as our first father and Eve as our first mother.

And the soul and spirit of man was not made with sin, and if man is now made with sin, who is doing so?

Again, not "made with sin," but inheriting of that sin ~ not Adam's particular sin, but his unrighteousness acquired as a result of that sin.

Who brought this sin nature, calling, or spirit into the mind or flesh of man after man sinned?

Ugh. Nobody. But it is imputed to us, an inherited condition.

Who made the changing to Christ's creation?

Not sure I even understand this question, but we need Christ's righteousness imputed to us. And that's what happened maybe not first, but first explicitly stated, to Abraham, who believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. He still had no righteousness of his own, and none of us do, either, but righteousness ~ the righteousness of Christ ~ was credited to him, and so it is with us who have believed.

You know, it's kind of funny; you spend virtually your entire post above agreeing with what I said previously, but then, at the very end, you say, "The natural state of man sinning in this world, is not by being born with a nature to sin, but rather is the current norm for souls on earth in mortal flesh," which really doesn't make sense, to be quite honest with you. That seems to be like saying, "Grass is not green in the summer, but in the summer, grass is green." You agreed with virtually everything I said, and then in this one sentence, you refuted it and then refuted yourself. I mean:

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[PinSeeker]

Regarding Isaiah 45:7, many good translations have 'calamity' in that verse, rather than 'evil.' Neither is a bad translation of the Hebrew there, but that verse should be understood that God brings to pass everything that happens, even what we might consider bad things, either by directly causing them or by allowing them to happen. That's not to say God is the author of evil or sin in any way ~ although it may seem that way to us from time to time, but is not the case. And He uses all these things according to His good purpose. And regarding individuals, He works all things together, as Paul says in Romans 8:28, for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

We worship a great and awesome God!

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The so-called fallen nature is believed to be propagated by men. Oh? Then
whence did Eve obtain it?

She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's
body prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after
his wife was already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass
the fallen nature to her by means of his body.

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as
before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel exposed; so
I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the
chemistry of that fruit.

FAQ: If Eve's altered moral perception wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to Adam's
body, then what?

REPLY: Well; obviously the Serpent did it to them, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev
20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.

FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she
tasted the forbidden fruit?

REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come into
the world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and
righteousness would later be offered to the world via a lone male's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)
_

 

[BeyondET]

People keep trying to tell how a sin nature was put into man, with a process for which man is now born with it.

But no one has ever said who did so. Until we have a creator and maker of something new, then there is no such thing that actually exists.

Except in the imagination of people.

I haven't seen anyone say that sin nature was placed into a man,

 

[Bob Estey]

People keep trying to tell how a sin nature was put into man, with a process for which man is now born with it.

But no one has ever said who did so. Until we have a creator and maker of something new, then there is no such thing that actually exists.

Except in the imagination of people.

The problem I have with the idea that we are born with a sin nature, is that it gives us an excuse to sin. I'm not wise enough to know whether or not I have a sin nature, but I do think I can choose not to sin, and I do think that when we sin, it creates in us a desire to sin more.

 

[robert derrick]

The problem I have with the idea that we are born with a sin nature, is that it gives us an excuse to sin. I'm not wise enough to know whether or not I have a sin nature, but I do think I can choose not to sin, and I do think that when we sin, it creates in us a desire to sin more.

Excellent, especially the part about how we can make ourselves natural sinners by sinning more and more, but not because we are born sinners.

Being a child of the devil isn't by birth, but by deed:

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

The example of sinning entered into the world when the first man sinned in the world, and death passes on all men that also sin in the world, not bey coming into the world.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The only one who creates a sinning nature within himself is the sinner himself, and the lusting for sin is within the heart for the flesh, not within the flesh itself.

 

[robert derrick]

Nobody. But God warned Adam that he would fall into this state in the very day he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and die he did. .

And so it is today. The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

And as the federal head of the human race, that state is acquired even from conception by all men, male and female alike.
.

Funny. I'm not a federalist. Neither is Christ. That's man's theosophy.

No, that soul is born sinful. Not having sinned, per se, because at the moment of birth, the person has done nothing good or bad. But everyone is born with the same sinful nature ~ proneness/propensity to sin, and thus dead in sin, and in need of salvation.

Not sure I even understand this question,

What you are apparently not understanding is the Scripture of John 1:3, that nothing spiritual nor natural exists in heaven and earth, whether in the stars of heaven or flesh of living creatures on earth, without Christ creating and making it.

Nothing exists that is not created and made by Christ.

You are speaking something that exists that has entered into the seed and flesh of man, that you deny is created or made at all, and yet has enough power to move man to do something.

Therefore the question of who created and placed this power in the seed and flesh of man, is all important.

And so, back to square 1: Who created and made this powerful sin nature, that exists in the seed and flesh of man, so that it is passed on to babes in the womb?

It was not created and made by Christ in the beginning of man's seed and flesh.

It did not exist. You are saying it now exists, but without a creator.

That is rejecting John 1:3, and declaring that something exists, has been created and made, but not with Christ doing so: there must therefore be another creator and maker of something that exists in the flesh of man.

Until you at least acknowledge this point, there is nothing more to say.

Oh, and God bless you too.

I've become a much nicer person, since I've stopped endlessly debating the same old poor horse with the same person.

 

[robert derrick]

.
The so-called fallen nature is believed to be propagated by men. Oh? Then
whence did Eve obtain it?

She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's
body prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after
his wife was already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass
the fallen nature to her by means of his body.

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as
before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel exposed; so
I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the
chemistry of that fruit.

FAQ: If Eve's altered moral perception wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to Adam's
body, then what?

REPLY: Well; obviously the Serpent did it to them, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev
20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.

FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she
tasted the forbidden fruit?

REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come into
the world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and
righteousness would later be offered to the world via a lone male's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)
_

Interesting. Scripture does say that Eve was decieved in the transgression, but not Adam.

It's one thing to be decieved while sinning, but another to knowingly and willingly do it:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

This is purposed wifull sinning against knowledge, which is different being double minded:

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

And so Eve had become decieved into double mindedness, but Adam knew exactly what he was doing.

Also in the marriage bed of being made one flesh, as Adam and Eve were, it's one thing for one to sin, but another for both to do so knowingly.

Until Adam transgressed, Eve was still decieved, but when Adam did, both their eyes were opened to their sin and shame: it's the eye-opening power of two or three being agreed in a matter, whether for good or evil.

The same as Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[robert derrick]

I haven't seen anyone say that sin nature was placed into a man,

That's because those who believe in being born with a sin nature have jumped the shark in the tank.

It didn't exist in seed and flesh of man before the transgression, and yet all the claims are that it is there now.

That of course is the point of the thread. I have left the endless debate about whether man has sin nature or not by birth, and so I go back to when the shark was jumped in the first place.

How did it get there? Who put it there? Who created it?

The whole point is obvious: people keep talking about something that exists in this world, in the seed and flesh of man, and yet they don't want to address who created it. They want to say it exists, but not who created it and who put it in the flesh of man.

Is there something that exists of it's own power and makes itself a home in the flesh, without Christ having anything to do with it?

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Until they acknowledge nothing exists in this world, whether spirit or nature, without Christ creating and making it, then it is all theoretical imagination only.

They say it exists, and so they must have a creator for it. Otherwise, something can exist in this life, that Christ had nothing to do with: He is not the Creator and Maker of all things, because something else exists without Him making it.

Christ is the Creator and Maker of all spiritual and natural things, whether atoms, molecules, DNA, and tissues of flesh.

That's a Scriptural duh.

 

[Behold]

People keep trying to tell how a sin nature was put into man, with a process for which man is now born with it.
But no one has ever said who did so. Until we have a creator and maker of something new, then there is no such thing that actually exists.
Except in the imagination of people.

The "sin nature", Is the nature of the Devil.
When adam "fell" he actually changed natures...from Holy to unholy.
The "adamic nature" is the nature of the Devil.
"Sin was found IN HIM"< and that is what is found in US< until we are "made righteous" by the Blood of Jesus and the Death of Christ, becoming a NEW CREATION.

This is why Jesus said.."you are of YOUR Father" to the unbelievers.
/
See that?
"your Father"... not MY Father.
This is why the UNBELIEVERs., those never born again, die, and end up with THEIR Father.
The born again, end up with Father God in Heaven.
There are no unbelievers (not born again) in Heaven, because they go to THEIR Father, after they die.

"Hell-Lake of Fire : is made for the DEVIL and his ANGLES"< and all those who are OF the adamic or SIN Nature, having never been born again...same as the Devil.

The mystery is..... when you are born again, you become the Son/Daughter of a NEW Father = God.
This is why Jesus told you...."you must be BORN AGAIN"......as that is how you change spiritual Father's.
If you dont....If you are never born again, then you dont end up with the Father of Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

The "sin nature", Is the nature of the Devil.
When adam "fell" he actually changed natures...from Holy to unholy.
The "adamic nature" is the nature of the Devil.
"Sin was found IN HIM"< and that is what is found in US< until we are "made righteous" by the Blood of Jesus and the Death of Christ, becoming a NEW CREATION.

This is why Jesus said.."you are of YOUR Father" to the unbelievers.
/
See that?
"your Father"... not MY Father.
This is why the UNBELIEVERs., those never born again, die, and end up with THEIR Father.
The born again, end up with Father God in Heaven.
There are no unbelievers (not born again) in Heaven, because they go to THEIR Father, after they die.

"Hell-Lake of Fire : is made for the DEVIL and his ANGLES"< and all those who are OF the adamic or SIN Nature, having never been born again...same as the Devil.

The mystery is..... when you are born again, you become the Son/Daughter of a NEW Father = God.
This is why Jesus told you...."you must be BORN AGAIN"......as that is how you change spiritual Father's.
If you dont....If you are never born again, then you dont end up with the Father of Christ.

I completely agree Behold.

Once a soul sins in this life, they make themselves a child of the devil, rather than a creation of God.

I only object to there being a sin nature in the flesh, and especially not one babes are born with into the world.

If you say this sin nature exists, then someone other than Christ had to create it, and if you say this existing sin nature is now in the seed of man to pass on to babes, then you must say who put it there: who changed the seed and flesh of man from what Christ creates us with.

Scripture declares plainly that nothing is created nor made in this world without Christ, and Scripture also says plainly that all things created by Christ in this life were, and are, created for His good pleasure:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

You are speaking of a creation in this world that is not pleasing to God, nor for His good pleasure: a creation with sin in it, that has power to move a creature to sin against the Lord. You are speaking of a power and principality that exists in the flesh of man, that is created and made without Christ having any say in the matter.

That is false, otherwise, Christ is not the only Creator, and there are creatures created, that are not for God's pleasure.

And so, who created and put this natural thing into the seed and flesh of man?

Without at least acknowledging the point, then there is nothing more to say in this matter.

Oh, and God bless you too.