Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[WPM]

What is Genesis?

What are you talking about? Do you not have anything?

 

[CrowCross]

Where does it say that in the Bible?

It's the only time frame left.
If Satan walked in the Garden in an un-fallen state then it must have been after God planted the garden.
I think its would be safe to assume Satan had fallen before He tempted Eve and Adam ate the fruit.

How long was it between when the garden was made and Adam fell....we don't know.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you believe the mark of God in Revelation is physical?

Absolutely.

For the first time in mankind's history we have the technology to fulfill that prophecy.

 

[CrowCross]

Millions of those comfort pillows have been sold in the churches - so you are not alone!!!

I but my pillows from Mike Lindell.

 

[CrowCross]

Simply repeating a number six times does not establish that the number must be understood as a literal 1,000 solar years. Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers, imagery, and visions. The question is not how many times “1,000 years” appears, but how Revelation uses the number within its literary and biblical context.

You are essentially arguing, “It appears six times, therefore it must be literal.” That is not an argument; it is an assumption about how the number must be interpreted.

If repetition automatically made something literal, then we would have quite a problem interpreting many of the repeated symbols throughout Revelation.

I disagree. But, perhaps you can provide an example of these repeated symbols.

Because Revelation itself gives us good reason to recognize symbolic imagery, and because Scripture frequently uses numbers symbolically. My position isn't that I simply decided, “I want 1,000 to be symbolic.” Rather, I interpret the 1,000 years within the broader symbolic framework of Revelation and in light of how Scripture itself uses the concepts of completeness, fullness, and long periods of time.

There are many instances in the bible where 1,000 means just that...1,000

More importantly, I am not arguing that the phrase means anything I want it to mean. There are interpretive controls: context, immediate literary context, the rest of Revelation, the Old Testament imagery being used, and Scripture interpreting Scripture.

The burden is therefore not simply on me to prove that it is symbolic. You also need to demonstrate WHY this particular number must be interpreted as a literal chronological period, especially within a book so saturated with symbolic imagery.

The answer is because it's presented as literal.
I would say the early church according to Barnabas...or who ever wrote the epistle of Barnabas presented it as literal.
It was common knowledge.
The 1,000 years represents the 7th day...where each day of creation history was allotted 1,000 years.

Only if symbolism is being used arbitrarily—which is not what I'm advocating.

There is a major difference between biblical symbolism and making something mean whatever you want. The fact that an interpretation is symbolic does not mean it is unlimited or subjective.

And your appeal to “the many theologians over the ages” doesn't settle the question either. Theological tradition is not Scripture. If a doctrine is biblical, we should be able to demonstrate it from the biblical text—not merely appeal to how many theologians have historically agreed with us.

Besides, theologians have disagreed about Revelation for centuries. So appealing to “many theologians” doesn't establish your interpretation any more than appealing to “many theologians” would establish mine.



No. You don't need to read 320 posts. I was responding to your repeated claim that I have never explained my position when I have done so numerous times.

But since you specifically asked for a summary, here it is:

Well, let's have a look at your view....and thanks for presenting it.

I understand the 1,000 years symbolically because Revelation is apocalyptic literature presented through visions and symbols, the number 1,000 is used elsewhere in Scripture in ways that communicate FULLNESS of whatever is in view rather than necessarily functioning as a literal stopwatch, and the immediate context of Revelation 20 must be interpreted consistently with the symbolic character of the surrounding vision. I therefore do not assume that “1,000 years” means exactly 1,000 literal calendar years simply because the words appear in the text.

But you do assume it means completion in this instance. Honestly, I don't see it.
Perhaps you could provide a few examples.

I could provide you with 8 examples of where 1,000 is presented as literal. The 1,000 year reign would be number 9.

And here's the larger issue: you're treating “literal” as though it is automatically the default and “symbolic” requires special permission. That's not how biblical interpretation works. We determine the meaning from the genre, context, imagery, and the way Scripture uses language.

So I'm not asking you to accept my interpretation because I claim to have some “great and mighty spiritual discernment.” I'm asking you to examine the interpretive method and the biblical evidence rather than assuming that your preferred reading is automatically the literal one. Selah!

All you did was present a teaching that 1,000 means "completion" in this instance.
Why would satan be released at the end of this symbolic time frame? How does that work?

Read Rev 20:1-6....it's presented as literal. You need to explain the symbolsm of completion and how completion addresses each part of that account.
Why does it say..."5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. " What is the symbolism here?

 

[CrowCross]

I've already explained my position to you and many people multiple times in previous discussions, including the biblical reasoning behind it. I'm not going to keep repeating the same argument every time you ask, especially when we've already debated this subject at length.

If you genuinely want to revisit my position, you're welcome to look through our previous discussions using the search feature. I'm here to engage in meaningful biblical discussion, not to repeatedly restate the same arguments for someone who has already debated them with me and still has stubborn ears.

And telling me to “go away” because I don't want to repeat an argument I've already made doesn't exactly strengthen your position.

See the above post. Explain your symbolism.

 

[WPM]

It's the only time frame left.
If Satan walked in the Garden in an un-fallen state then it must have been after God planted the garden.
I think its would be safe to assume Satan had fallen before He tempted Eve and Adam ate the fruit.

How long was it between when the garden was made and Adam fell....we don't know.

I gave you the biblical evidence and you avoided/rejected it. I refer you back. It debunks your position.

 

[TribulationSigns]

There are many instances in the bible where 1,000 means just that...1,000

Show me! And what does the context about?

The answer is because it's presented as literal.

No!

I would say the early church according to Barnabas...or who ever wrote the epistle of Barnabas presented it as literal.
It was common knowledge.
The 1,000 years represents the 7th day...where each day of creation history was allotted 1,000 years.

LOL. Weak arguments. Another example of your use of extra-biblical! The Book/Epistle of Barnabas is not part of Scripture and is not included in the biblical canon of mainstream Christianity. Therefore the the Epistle of Barnabas is not inspired Scripture and has no canonical authority.

I could provide you with 8 examples of where 1,000 is presented as literal. The 1,000 year reign would be number 9.

Go ahead and show it to me.

All you did was present a teaching that 1,000 means "completion" in this instance.

It is! The number 10, 100, and 1,000 are a spiritual number of fullness of whatever is in view!

Why would satan be released at the end of this symbolic time frame? How does that work?

You don’t know? When was Satan bound? At the Cross, of course. Look it up in your Bible.

And how long is he bound in the bottomless pit, and for what purpose? Until God’s appointed time for the building of His Church is fulfilled and the full number of His elect has been secured. Revelation 7:1–4 shows God restraining the winds until His servants are sealed.

Satan is not released because some literal 1,000-year calendar period has expired. The “1,000 years” represents the fullness of the appointed period in which Satan is restrained while Christ builds His Church. When that period reaches its God-appointed completion, Satan is released for the final deception.

That’s it. There is no need to calculate dates or construct elaborate prophetic calendars to predict when these things supposedly happen. That approach has repeatedly produced false predictions through YOUR false prophets before you (of same doctrine and belief).

The question is not, “How many literal years have passed?” The question is, “What does the text itself say the purpose and duration of Satan’s binding are?” Revelation 20 answers that in symbolic language.

Read Rev 20:1-6....it's presented as literal.

No it does not! LOL. But you as a natural man with carnal mind, I would not be surprised.

You need to explain the symbolsm of completion and how completion addresses each part of that account.

I just did. Hope you get it by now.

Why does it say..."5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. " What is the symbolism here?

First, do you know what is the first resurrection refers to that the rest of the dead does not have it? Think about it!

 

[TribulationSigns]

See the above post. Explain your symbolism.

Here.

 

[David in NJ]

I but my pillows from Mike Lindell.

That was GREAT

Love you my brother in Christ

 

[David in NJ]

What are you talking about? Do you not have anything?

i have the Promises from Genesis

 

[doctrox]

From the OP:

Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

There is no "pre-tribulation rapture."

Regardless,

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 The. 4:7)

BTW, remain = survive

However, the big takeaway is that "clouds" does NOT mean heaven. Being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord does NOT mean going to heaven with the Lord.

This is easy; take a look at all 22 verses that contain "cloud".
.

 

[IndianaRob]

From the OP:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 The. 4:7)

BTW, remain = survive

However, the big takeaway is that "clouds" does NOT mean heaven. Being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord does NOT mean going to heaven with the Lord.

This is easy; take a look at all 22 verses that contain "cloud".
.

You're ignoring the fact that Paul includes himself as one who would be alive and caught.

 

[doctrox]

You're ignoring the fact that Paul includes himself as one who would be alive and caught.

The point remains: Being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord does NOT mean the hackneyed "going to heaven to be with the Lord."

 

[ewq1938]

You're ignoring the fact that Paul includes himself as one who would be alive and caught.

Only because he did not know for sure if it would happen during his life or not.

 

[doctrox]

.

Only because he did not know for sure if it would happen during his life or not.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. !!! (Rev. 22)
.

 

[David in NJ]

Only because he did not know for sure if it would happen during his life or not.

Keep in mind that the same Holy Spirit who guided the OT prophets also guided the apostles = what to say and write.

Just as God showed to John the Revelation of Jesus Christ

 

[CrowCross]

LOL. Weak arguments. Another example of your use of extra-biblical! The Book/Epistle of Barnabas is not part of Scripture and is not included in the biblical canon of mainstream Christianity. Therefore the the Epistle of Barnabas is not inspired Scripture and has no canonical authority.

LOL all you want....You see...it doesn't matter if the epistle of Barnabas is part of scripture. IT'S WHAT THEY BELIEVED. They believed in a literal 1,000 years!!!

Go ahead and show it to me.

You can start here....
1 Genesis 20:16: Abimelech gives Abraham a literal thousand pieces of silver to compensate Sarah.

2 Numbers 31:4-5: Moses commands that one thousand men from each of the twelve tribes of Israel be sent to war, making a literal total of 12,000 armed soldiers.

3 Judges 15:15: Samson uses the jawbone of a donkey to strike down exactly 1,000 Philistine men.

4 Judges 16:5: The Philistine rulers each offer Delilah 1,000 pieces of silver (plus an extra 100) to betray Samson.

5 Song of Solomon 8:11: Vineyard renters pay a strict economic rent of 1,000 pieces of silver for its fruit.

6 Isaiah 7:23: A historical economic measure describing a place where there used to be "1,000 vines worth 1,000 silver shekels."

7 Song of Solomon 8:11: Vineyard renters pay a strict economic rent of 1,000 pieces of silver for its fruit.

8 2 Samuel 18:12: A soldier refuses to harm Absalom even if someone handed him 1,000 pieces of silver right into his hands.

9 1 Kings 3:5: King Solomon travels to Gibeon and offers a massive, literal sacrifice of 1,000 burnt offerings on the altar.

10 Revelation 20:2-7: The thousand-year reign of Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

There is no "pre-tribulation rapture."

If you say so.

 

[IndianaRob]

The point remains: Being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord does NOT mean the hackneyed "going to heaven to be with the Lord."

Yes it does mean going to heaven to be with the Lord.