Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[CrowCross]

@WPM makes a good point there.

"The New Jerusalem is not just described as a city, it is also described as being the bride of Christ."

The heavenly Jerusalem isn't a literal city — it's a spiritual city, made up of the bride of Christ. The people are the city.

I would say the bible presents it as a literal city....the bible even gives it measurements.

 

[WPM]

If New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ...how big is the bride of Christ?

I don't see New Jerusalem as the bride of Christ like some people do.

Address what the text says.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I've already explained and made references to where the bible teaches that.

I'm looking for verses from my Acts 9:15 Christ selected Rom 11:13 Apostle & Rom 15:16 Minister that teaches :-
""He returns to the Earth and that's where the church will be.""
Can you list JUST the Paul verses that teach that ?

 

[rwb]

Still doesn't explain how the city is saved people yet the same passage says saved people travel to enter the city. The city is adorned as a bride, and the bride will enter into it.

It makes sense when we understand the city of saved people in heaven are the spiritual body of Christ; living souls without human form. They are the New Jerusalem the city that shall come down from heaven with the Lord. They are spirits (not flesh & blood) of men made perfect. They come with the Lord to give life to our body of flesh changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Because without spirit there is not life.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 14:3 (KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:23-24 (KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

 

[rwb]

If New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ...how big is the bride of Christ?

I don't see New Jerusalem as the bride of Christ like some people do.

See reply #144

 

[CrowCross]

Address what the text says.

Do you think the “bride” points to the New Jerusalem, populated by the redeemed saints?
Or do you think the New Jerusalem is the actual "bride"?

 

[CrowCross]

See reply #144

It makes sense when we understand the city of saved people in heaven are the spiritual body of Christ; living souls without human form.

By that time the "spirits of people" will have glorified bodies.

 

[rwb]

By that time the "spirits of people" will have glorified bodies.

It would help if you prove what you allege through the Word of God. Post the verses from which you allege or what you allege is mere assumption or speculation.

None will be bodily changed before the hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds that time given whereby man must be saved shall be no longer. Even though those who have been born again are already spiritually perfect, we will not be bodily perfect until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Hebrews 11:40 (KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Then why would you argue my point then? Do you think these verses are talking about a future event?

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

I TOTALLY AGREE there is one new man in Christ.
Never have I thought otherwise.
Never have and never will.
So you hit a dead end there.

Let me reiterate...There is one new man in Christ for all who are born again. No doubt about it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It would help if you prove what you allege through the Word of God. Post the verses from which you allege or what you allege is mere assumption or speculation.

None will be bodily changed before the hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds that time given whereby man must be saved shall be no longer. Even though those who have been born again are already spiritually perfect, we will not be bodily perfect until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Hebrews 11:40 (KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Since Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, your entire argument is moot.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It makes sense when we understand the city of saved people in heaven are the spiritual body of Christ; living souls without human form. They are the New Jerusalem the city that shall come down from heaven with the Lord. They are spirits (not flesh & blood) of men made perfect. They come with the Lord to give life to our body of flesh changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Because without spirit there is not life.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 14:3 (KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:23-24 (KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Since we KNOW the bride of Christ is believers, we also know it cannot be a building.

 

[CrowCross]

It would help if you prove what you allege through the Word of God. Post the verses from which you allege or what you allege is mere assumption or speculation.

None will be bodily changed before the hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds that time given whereby man must be saved shall be no longer. Even though those who have been born again are already spiritually perfect, we will not be bodily perfect until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Hebrews 11:40 (KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I'm trying to picture how a spirit can eat a piece of fruit at the marriage supper of the lamb.
Can a spirit chew? Will the fruit drop through them and land on the floor and make a mess for the angels to clean up?

 

[IndianaRob]

Still doesn't explain how the city is saved people yet the same passage says saved people travel to enter the city. The city is adorned as a bride, and the bride will enter into it.

Paul calls Jerusalem which is above "the mother of us all" (Gal 4:26). Can a city be a mother?

He's contrasting two Jerusalems there — the one which now is, in bondage with her children, and the one above, which is free. Both are described as women with children. Neither is being described as real estate.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul calls Jerusalem which is above "the mother of us all" (Gal 4:26). Can a city be a mother?

He's contrasting two Jerusalems there — the one which now is, in bondage with her children, and the one above, which is free. Both are described as women with children. Neither is being described as real estate.

That doesn't address the issues in Rev 21. How can NJ be the bride and the bride enter into that same city? We can discuss other verses once this one is settled.

 

[IndianaRob]

I would say the bible presents it as a literal city....the bible even gives it measurements.

In Revelation how do you decide whether something is literal or symbolic?

 

[ewq1938]

I'm looking for verses from my Acts 9:15 Christ selected Rom 11:13 Apostle & Rom 15:16 Minister that teaches :-
""He returns to the Earth and that's where the church will be.""
Can you list JUST the Paul verses that teach that ?

The bible has one author so I don't accept limits like that.

 

[IndianaRob]

That doesn't address the issues in Rev 21. How can NJ be the bride and the bride enter into that same city? We can discuss other verses once this one is settled.

Sticking with Revelation 21 as you asked. Verse 9 — "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." Then verse 10 shows him the city. That's the passage identifying the two as the same thing.

Nothing in the chapter says the bride enters. Verse 24 says the nations and the kings of the earth. Verse 27 says those written in the book of life. No mention of the bride entering.

 

[IndianaRob]

I TOTALLY AGREE there is one new man in Christ.
Never have I thought otherwise.
Never have and never will.
So you hit a dead end there.

Let me reiterate...There is one new man in Christ for all who are born again. No doubt about it.

Ephesians 5:31, the twain shall be one flesh, and Paul says he speaks concerning Christ and the church. Can you explain how that isn’t a marriage?

 

[rwb]

Since Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, your entire argument is moot.

No, the Bible teaches we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds pre-wrath, but does not teach pre-trib. Because Scripture affirms Christ disciples must endure much tribulation entering into the Kingdom of God.

Acts 14:22 (KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 (KJV) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Although faithful saints in this life are appointed to endure through great affliction, tribulation, but gives us assurance that we shall be delivered from the wrath of God that shall come on the children of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 3:3 (KJV) That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

 

[rwb]

Since we KNOW the bride of Christ is believers, we also know it cannot be a building.

So you believe Jerusalem above, the holy city that shall come down from heaven is a brick & mortar physical building?