Who is an apostles

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H. Richard

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StanJ said:
Paul was not speaking about the gifts of the Spirit In 1 Corinthians 13, he was speaking about the efforts of man.
There are probably many people that are closer to God than I am but they usually don't post about it. Paul said he could boast about it but that he wouldn't boast about it.
***
Thank you for indicating that I am BOASTING ABOUT IT. In what I wrote there is no boasting.

If you are doing what an apostle does then you are an apostle. And remember that Satan has his apostles too.
 

H. Richard

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StanJ said:
Paul clearly said it wasn't his gospel it was Jesus'. Paul did not appoint you and Jesus did not appoint you. You were saved by the gospel message. That does not make you an apostle because an Apostle has to be personally called by Jesus and that would be kind of hard seeing as though Jesus hasn't called any Apostle personally since Paul. That, is a fact.
***
A child of God is to bare fruit. In other words lead others to become children of God. To do that a person has to tell others about the message Jesus gave to Paul about grace. According the words that mean the same thing, an apostle is a messenger.

Sorry that my telling others that if they are preaching and teaching the grace gospel they are a messenger/apostle. I knew when I posted the truth there would be those that would take issue with it. But I will not back down from the truth.

I agree that the words (message) was given to the 12 for the Jews and the words (message) given to Paul for the Gentiles were given directly by Jesus. Those messages form our scriptures

Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
NKJV

Andronicus and Junia are listed as being among the apostles

Eph 4:11-12
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
NKJV

It is said that He (Jesus) makes some to be apostles to edify the body of Christ. That means Jesus makes some apostles today and in this age.
 

StanJ

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H. Richard said:
***
Thank you for indicating that I am BOASTING ABOUT IT. In what I wrote there is no boasting.
If you are doing what an apostle does then you are an apostle. And remember that Satan has his apostles too.
I did not say that, but not surprisingly you would conclude that seeing as you don't understand common English vernacular. How can I possibly remember something that isn't factual? You do come up with some pretty Fantastical ideas.
 

StanJ

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H. Richard said:
***
A child of God is to bare fruit. In other words lead others to become children of God. To do that a person has to tell others about the message Jesus gave to Paul about grace. According the words that mean the same thing, an apostle is a messenger.

Sorry that my telling others that if they are preaching and teaching the grace gospel they are a messenger/apostle. I knew when I posted the truth there would be those that would take issue with it. But I will not back down from the truth.

I agree that the words (message) was given to the 12 for the Jews and the words (message) given to Paul for the Gentiles were given directly by Jesus. Those messages form our scriptures

Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
NKJV

Andronicus and Junia are listed as being among the apostles

Eph 4:11-12
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
NKJV

It is said that He (Jesus) makes some to be apostles to edify the body of Christ. That means Jesus makes some apostles today and in this age.
You keep equivocating about the issue which in your case is the issue. Deal with your assertions.
Romans 16:7 is not advocating those two were Apostles it's advocating they had a good reputation with the apostles. Another example of how you don't read with comprehension.
Ephesians 4:11 says he gave, ie in the past tense. He started with the office of Apostle, then prophet and so on. Paul taught what the qualifications should be for the ongoing offices that he identifies in his letters and not one of them is for an apostle or prophet.
 

H. Richard

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StanJ said:
You keep equivocating about the issue which in your case is the issue. Deal with your assertions.
Romans 16:7 is not advocating those two were Apostles it's advocating they had a good reputation with the apostles. Another example of how you don't read with comprehension.
Ephesians 4:11 says he gave, ie in the past tense. He started with the office of Apostle, then prophet and so on. Paul taught what the qualifications should be for the ongoing offices that he identifies in his letters and not one of them is for an apostle or prophet.
***
I am not the subject of this thread. The subject is "who is an apostle".
 

Wormwood

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Stan,

I understand your point (even though I don't agree). Either way, the point (which I think you recognize...this is more for the others) is that the Apostles themselves had a definition for what constituted an Apostle. It wasn't just a believer or someone who felt themselves to be one. An Apostle was an eyewitness. Even in Paul's definition, in spite of the extraordinary means by which Jesus called him, he also recognizes that his Apostleship was unnatural because he was not an original eyewitness to the resurrection. So, the point is, we have two definitions by which the Apostles and Paul delineate what makes an Apostle. What we see is that Apostles were eyewitnesses, specially called/selected for the role, were foundational to the Church as a whole, and received a unique revelation/message to proclaim that was unknown to others. Paul also expounds upon this in 1 Cor. 2. Moreover, all of Paul's letters speak of his Apostleship as being something extraordinary which came by special calling and a unique revelation. Also, Paul speaks of being "last of all" among the Apostles. While it could be Paul is simply referring to Apostles up to that date when he wrote the letter, that does not at all seem to be the case when you look at the panoply of Scripture. Paul also refers to the "signs of an Apostle" which were miraculous works which validated their unique and revelatory message.

In sum, Apostles in the NT are similar to prophets in the OT. They received special, unique revelation from God to proclaim to the world. The difference with Apostles is that this revelation was directly from Jesus Christ himself. They were specifically "sent" (Apostle literally means "sent ones") by Jesus to proclaim the revelation they had received from him concerning his teaching, resurrection and the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. Today, that teaching, revelation and Gospel has been fully revealed (as Paul says clearly in Galatians and other places). Thus there is no more new and revelatory messages about the person and work of Jesus. To say otherwise is to suggest that Paul and the 12 taught an incomplete Gospel....which is essentially what heretical groups such as the Mormons proclaim. Let us not be numbered among them. The foundation has been laid. There is no need for another.
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
Stan,
I understand your point (even though I don't agree). Either way, the point (which I think you recognize...this is more for the others) is that the Apostles themselves had a definition for what constituted an Apostle. It wasn't just a believer or someone who felt themselves to be one. An Apostle was an eyewitness. Even in Paul's definition, in spite of the extraordinary means by which Jesus called him, he also recognizes that his Apostleship was unnatural because he was not an original eyewitness to the resurrection. So, the point is, we have two definitions by which the Apostles and Paul delineate what makes an Apostle. What we see is that Apostles were eyewitnesses, specially called/selected for the role, were foundational to the Church as a whole, and received a unique revelation/message to proclaim that was unknown to others. Paul also expounds upon this in 1 Cor. 2. Moreover, all of Paul's letters speak of his Apostleship as being something extraordinary which came by special calling and a unique revelation. Also, Paul speaks of being "last of all" among the Apostles. While it could be Paul is simply referring to Apostles up to that date when he wrote the letter, that does not at all seem to be the case when you look at the panoply of Scripture. Paul also refers to the "signs of an Apostle" which were miraculous works which validated their unique and revelatory message.
In sum, Apostles in the NT are similar to prophets in the OT. They received special, unique revelation from God to proclaim to the world. The difference with Apostles is that this revelation was directly from Jesus Christ himself. They were specifically "sent" (Apostle literally means "sent ones") by Jesus to proclaim the revelation they had received from him concerning his teaching, resurrection and the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. Today, that teaching, revelation and Gospel has been fully revealed (as Paul says clearly in Galatians and other places). Thus there is no more new and revelatory messages about the person and work of Jesus. To say otherwise is to suggest that Paul and the 12 taught an incomplete Gospel....which is essentially what heretical groups such as the Mormons proclaim. Let us not be numbered among them. The foundation has been laid. There is no need for another.
LOL... If you mean what I said about my Matthias, then no problem because it's just an opinion based on what I've recently come to observe. As far as new revelatory messages are concerned, I totally agree with you because you are aligned with what John 20:30-31 says.
 

H. Richard

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Wormwood said:
Stan,

I understand your point (even though I don't agree). Either way, the point (which I think you recognize...this is more for the others) is that the Apostles themselves had a definition for what constituted an Apostle. It wasn't just a believer or someone who felt themselves to be one. An Apostle was an eyewitness. Even in Paul's definition, in spite of the extraordinary means by which Jesus called him, he also recognizes that his Apostleship was unnatural because he was not an original eyewitness to the resurrection. So, the point is, we have two definitions by which the Apostles and Paul delineate what makes an Apostle. What we see is that Apostles were eyewitnesses, specially called/selected for the role, were foundational to the Church as a whole, and received a unique revelation/message to proclaim that was unknown to others. Paul also expounds upon this in 1 Cor. 2. Moreover, all of Paul's letters speak of his Apostleship as being something extraordinary which came by special calling and a unique revelation. Also, Paul speaks of being "last of all" among the Apostles. While it could be Paul is simply referring to Apostles up to that date when he wrote the letter, that does not at all seem to be the case when you look at the panoply of Scripture. Paul also refers to the "signs of an Apostle" which were miraculous works which validated their unique and revelatory message.

In sum, Apostles in the NT are similar to prophets in the OT. They received special, unique revelation from God to proclaim to the world. The difference with Apostles is that this revelation was directly from Jesus Christ himself. They were specifically "sent" (Apostle literally means "sent ones") by Jesus to proclaim the revelation they had received from him concerning his teaching, resurrection and the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. Today, that teaching, revelation and Gospel has been fully revealed (as Paul says clearly in Galatians and other places). Thus there is no more new and revelatory messages about the person and work of Jesus. To say otherwise is to suggest that Paul and the 12 taught an incomplete Gospel....which is essentially what heretical groups such as the Mormons proclaim. Let us not be numbered among them. The foundation has been laid. There is no need for another.
***

If what you say is true then how do you deal with the fact that Paul states that there were two that were apostles when they did not see Jesus? You do limit God when you declare that He can not make anyone an apostle today. He certainly can if it is His wish and He is not limited by your ideas.

Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
NKJV

Andronicus and Junia are listed as being among the apostles

Eph 4:11-12
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
NKJV

It is said that He (Jesus) makes some to be apostles to edify the body of Christ. That means Jesus makes some apostles today and in this age.
 

StanJ

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H. Richard said:
If what you say is true then how do you deal with the fact that Paul states that there were two that were apostles when they did not see Jesus? You do limit God when you declare that He can not make anyone an apostle today. He certainly can if it is His wish and He is not limited by your ideas.
Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
NKJV
Andronicus and Junia are listed as being among the apostles
Eph 4:11-12
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
NKJV
It is said that He (Jesus) makes some to be apostles to edify the body of Christ. That means Jesus makes some apostles today and in this age.
This is already been explained to you and if you refuse to accept the explanation then please don't keep on asking the same questions. Having a reputation among the apostles is not the same as being an apostle and the Order of the offices that Jesus gave the church was exactly the way it has been he gave the apostles first he gave some Prophets and then evangelists pastors and teachers. Scripture shows that he personally called apostles so that is the precedent set in scripture itself.
 

FHII

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H. Richard said:
***

If what you say is true then how do you deal with the fact that Paul states that there were two that were apostles when they did not see Jesus? You do limit God when you declare that He can not make anyone an apostle today. He certainly can if it is His wish and He is not limited by your ideas.

Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

NKJV


Andronicus and Junia are listed as being among the apostles


Eph 4:11-12

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

NKJV


It is said that He (Jesus) makes some to be apostles to edify the body of Christ. That means Jesus makes some apostles today and in this age.

Sorry H. Richard... Andronicus and Junia were not apostles. They were of note amongst the other apostles but not apostles themselves.

I agree with you on the Eph scripture though. And here is another verse to consider:

1 Corinthians 4:9 KJV
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Paul may have been speaking "up to date". But i don't think so. The Apostles replaced the prophets. What has replaced the apostles? Answer: nothing.
 

Wormwood

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Yes, God appointed some to be Apostles. As I said, and as Scriptures indicates, these men were foundational to the preaching of the Gospel and the establishment of the Church. That foundation has been laid. Nothing in Ephesians says that this gift would continue throughout the ages. It was a foundational gift for the purpose of bringing the revelation of the Gospel. We now have the teaching of the Apostles in the NT canon. That foundation still exists through the Scriptures. It does not need to be laid again. Are you suggesting the foundation of the Church is incomplete or the revelation of God in Jesus Christ is insufficient? I mean, what else would a modern Apostle reveal? God spoke to us in the past through prophets and now has spoken through Christ. The Apostles provided that teaching of Christ. They didn't leave anything out.
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
Yes, God appointed some to be Apostles. As I said, and as Scriptures indicates, these men were foundational to the preaching of the Gospel and the establishment of the Church. That foundation has been laid. Nothing in Ephesians says that this gift would continue throughout the ages. It was a foundational gift for the purpose of bringing the revelation of the Gospel. We now have the teaching of the Apostles in the NT canon. That foundation still exists through the Scriptures. It does not need to be laid again. Are you suggesting the foundation of the Church is incomplete or the revelation of God in Jesus Christ is insufficient? I mean, what else would a modern Apostle reveal? God spoke to us in the past through prophets and now has spoken through Christ. The Apostles provided that teaching of Christ. They didn't leave anything else.
I think it's very obvious to the majority of us what the danger would be in regards to accepting Apostolic succession in the church.
 

H. Richard

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StanJ said:
I think it's very obvious to the majority of us what the danger would be in regards to accepting Apostolic succession in the church.
I agree. However it is not men who make apostles and teachers. It is the Holy Spirit.

Mankind has always loved religions. Today people go to Seminaries to learn how to be a preacher. These people says they have been called.

But if a person is just preaching religion they are not called by God. Under grace we are to preach the gospel of God's grace; how that Jesus' shed blood paid for all the sins of the world. The only sin that condemns under grace is the sin of unbelief; to not believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for all the sins of the world. Those who love religion will never accept God's grace.
 

Wormwood

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H. Richard,

You are out of line. People do not attend seminary to circumvent the work of the Holy Spirit. People go to Seminary to further their calling and grow in their knowledge of the Scriptures and learn from other godly and experienced church leaders. You shouldn't speak about things of which you have no knowledge. What kind of arrogance is it that says we do not need schools or teachers? Does not the Holy Spirit appoint teachers? Aren't we called to consider others better than ourselves and look up to our leaders? The Holy Spirit does not operate by making people individualistic islands that don't need anyone else but their own gut instincts and navels to ponder. Rather, the Holy Spirit uses people of humility who seek to learn, grow, study and devote themselves to the things of God and people of God. You have confused Western individualism with the work of the Holy Spirit. The two are quite antithetical.
 

StanJ

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H. Richard said:
I agree. However it is not men who make apostles and teachers. It is the Holy Spirit.

Mankind has always loved religions. Today people go to Seminaries to learn how to be a preacher. These people says they have been called.

But if a person is just preaching religion they are not called by God. Under grace we are to preach the gospel of God's grace; how that Jesus' shed blood paid for all the sins of the world. The only sin that condemns under grace is the sin of unbelief; to not believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for all the sins of the world. Those who love religion will never accept God's grace.
Not correct nor factual, the Bible shows it was Jesus that gave and appointed apostles. The holy spirit is for everyone who asks and receives in faith.
 

H. Richard

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Wormwood said:
H. Richard,

You are out of line. People do not attend seminary to circumvent the work of the Holy Spirit. People go to Seminary to further their calling and grow in their knowledge of the Scriptures and learn from other godly and experienced church leaders. You shouldn't speak about things of which you have no knowledge. What kind of arrogance is it that says we do not need schools or teachers? Does not the Holy Spirit appoint teachers? Aren't we called to consider others better than ourselves and look up to our leaders? The Holy Spirit does not operate by making people individualistic islands that don't need anyone else but their own gut instincts and navels to ponder. Rather, the Holy Spirit uses people of humility who seek to learn, grow, study and devote themselves to the things of God and people of God. You have confused Western individualism with the work of the Holy Spirit. The two are quite antithetical.
***
I don't think so.

1 Cor 1:25-29 Glory Only in the Lord
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
NKJV