Who is Israel?

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dragonfly

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Hi Erudite Celt,

The bible clearly states that the seed of Isaac / Israel ( seed meaning blood line ) would inherit Israel.

I can't find the verse which mentions the 'seed of Isaac'; could you help me out, with it, please?
 

Episkopos

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Shalom, Axehead and all.



Or, one could say it was profoundly simplistic! That is NOT what makes a person "of Isra'el!" If one comes to the conclusion that anyone who "finds God in a personal encounter" or anyone who is "found of God in a personal encounter" is one who is "of Isra'el," then that one has SNAPPED the ropes of the ship tying it to its moorings!

What good are the prophecies at all if one cannot count on to WHOM they are referring?! We may as well just fold up the Holy Bible and throw it away; it's no good if it's not true! If God wasn't talking to the Isra'elis BORN from the lineage of Isra'el (who is Ya`aqov, the son of Yitschaq with the birthright and the blessing, the son of Avraham with the birthright and the blessing) when He made the promises to Isra'el in both the Torah and the Prophets, then what CAN we trust?!

Anyone who doesn't read the Tanakh (the OT) for its history and its literal truth about God's words to mankind is a FOOL!

It doesn't make sense for the definition of "Isra'el" to be changed by way of analogy because one would no longer have the foundational truth upon which the analogy was made! Can't anyone see the logic of that?! It's not necessary, anyway! The grammatical, historical and largely literal interpretation of the Scriptures is the ONLY way to translate the Scriptures with any sort of consistency!

If I said, "These brass brads are the 'nails' that hold the document together"; and then say that the brads ARE INDEED "nails," essentially changing the definition of "brads," and tried to use them with a hammer into a wooden plank, how far would I get? THINK ABOUT IT!

So you are saying that you have not yet encountered God and since that is your present experience you choose to read the bible as a book of people who don't know God other than reading a book?
 

dragonfly

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Umm.... from across the Atlantic.... what are 'brass brads', please?


Going back to the beginning of your post, another question: you said: 'That is NOT what makes a person "of Isra'el!" '

So, how do you expound Paul's statements at the start of Romans 9, bearing in mind he is writing to a church which contains both Jews and Gentiles?

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 

Erudite Celt

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Hi Erudite Celt,



I can't find the verse which mentions the 'seed of Isaac', could you help me out, with it, please?
Are you saying that the land of Israel wasn't promised to Isaac and his descendants? As you know God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and Isaac and ​their descendants. The word's ones seed and ones descendants mean the same thing.
If you adopt a child that child will never be your seed ​that child's children will never be your descendants.

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)] Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to you I will give it, and to your "descendants" {[/background]וְנִזְרְעָה זָ֑רַע} { zeh'-rah= seed } [background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]after you will I give the land.[/background]
 

dragonfly

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Are you saying that the land of Israel wasn't promised to Isaac and his descendants?

No I'm not, but what you wrote,

'The bible clearly states that the seed of Isaac / Israel ( seed meaning blood line ) would inherit Israel',

made it sound as if you think the Bible mentions 'seed of Isaac'.

Since scripture mentions many 'seeds', and 'seed' (seed of the woman, seed of the wicked, seed of evildoers, seed of the kingdom) and Seed, I wondered what you make of Paul's revision of the term 'children of Abraham'? (Galatians 3:7) And his statement in

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


This lines up with what John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

And with what Jesus said:

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

 
And then there is Paul's thesis in the Galatian epistle, which defines the blessing of Abraham as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, (Galatians 3:14) and shows how the Seed who inherited what was promised to Abraham, was Jesus Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The chapter ends like this:

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


This has been in the BIble for 500 years - longer - it's been the revelation for 2000 years. Do you believe it?



We know there are descendants of Abraham who reject the New Covenant - the everlasting covenant - established upon the better sacrifice of the Lamb of God, His own dear Son. And therefore we must not fall for the rhetoric which comes from the unbelieving camp of Abraham's descendants, who reject Abraham's promised Seed, Jesus Messiah, his long-awaited heir according to the fulfilment of all the prophecy which foretold the Him.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Saint,

Look at the last verse you've quoted. If Jesus was interested in extracting only the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' from amongst the nations, why did He instruct His disciples not to preach to them? Hunh?

Dragonfly ... and everyone else, too ... we absolutely MUST begin to read Scripture, particularly prophecies, with the fourth dimension in mind! Timing is the ONLY way to understand some Scriptures! Not everything recorded in the Holy Bible is meant to be understood as a timeless universalism! There are some things that were written for a specific event or a specific time period in human history! Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24 are examples of these particular Scriptures.

When Yeshua` came the first time (His First Advent), He came presenting Himself as the Messiah (the Christ) of God - God's Anointed One - God's Selection for Yisra'el's King. Thus, He was not there for just anyone on the globe; He was there for Isra'el; He was there for the Jews in particular, His own tribe, His own family. Just as David was first anointed by His own tribe, Y'hudah, the Jews and reigned as their King for his first 7 and a half years in Hevron (Hebron), so too Yeshua` should have been anointed to be Y'hudah's King by the elders of Y'hudah, the P'rushiym, the Pharisees. So, when Yeshua` said,...

Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
KJV

He was referring to the specific mission He had AT THAT MOMENT! This verse, of course, was in contrast to the circumstances around Him at the time...

Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJV


Yes, it was a test of her faith (which she passed), but more importantly, He was letting them know what His mission was and to whom it was directed AT THAT TIME! He did not go to any of the towns of the non-Jews, except the remnant of the northern tribes of Isra'el, the Shomroniym (the Samaritans).

When Yeshua` sent His twelve emissaries with instructions...

Matthew 10:5-11:1
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach (herald), saying, The kingdom of heaven (from the sky) is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
KJV


He was restricting their movements AT THAT TIME! Notice in verse 5 that He told His disciples NOT to go on any road (way) of the Gentiles and NOT to go to any of the Samaritan towns! Their first mission was to go to all the hamlets and burgs of Y'hudah and herald Him as the prophesied Messiah of God, and tell them, "The Kingdom from the sky is within your grasp!" And, as proof that they were sent, they were to perform miracles: "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils." In fact, if you will investigate the phenomena throughout the Gospels, you will find that the miracles were ALWAYS done as proof of the message of the Good News about the Kingdom, and this Kingdom, by the way, is the SAME KINGDOM over which David and Shlomo (Solomon) ruled! It was GOD'S Kingdom LOANED to David! Anyway, that's how David looked at it:

1 Samuel 15:26-28
26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
28 And Samuel said unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
KJV


2 Samuel 5:12
12 And David perceived that the Lord had established him king over Israel, and that he had exalted his kingdom for his people Israel's sake.
KJV


Psalm 145:1-13
David's Psalm of praise.
1 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
3 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
5 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.
6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.
7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.
8 The Lord is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
KJV


So, remember that not everything - in fact, rather few things - are timeless universalisms in the Bible.

Shalom, Episkopos.

So you are saying that you have not yet encountered God and since that is your present experience you choose to read the bible as a book of people who don't know God other than reading a book?

Cute. Why do people like you enjoy twisting the words of others?
 

dragonfly

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Shalom Retrobyter,

My post from which you quoted as a springboard, was an answer to Saint's post #154 in this thread - top of the page.

I think you've misunderstood my point, but if you would read Saint's post, and think about what he had suggested, you will understand what I was saying in the whole of my post. I do not disagree that Christ was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, at that time, because I believe what He said, and He sent His disciples to complete spreading the gospel.

I disagree profoundly with the extrapolation which Saint made, and which justified my question.
 

Saint

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Will Yahweh Elohim recall the House of Ephraim that He once divorced for their disobedience; yes Yahweh says He will in any number of scriptures such as in Isaiah

For you will spread abroad to the right and to the left, and your offspring will possess the nations and will people the desolate cities. "Fear not, for you will not be ashamed; be not confounded, for you will not be disgraced; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more. For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called. For the LORD has called you like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off, says your God. For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you.
(Isa 54:3-7 ESV)

Will Yahweh allow strangers to be grafted into the tree with the House of Jacob; of course He will, just as stated in Isaiah 56. Just as sojourners from Egypt were allowed to join with Israel when they left that country.

"And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant--
(Isa 56:6 ESV)

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

veteran

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No I'm not, but what you wrote,

'The bible clearly states that the seed of Isaac / Israel ( seed meaning blood line ) would inherit Israel',

made it sound as if you think the Bible mentions 'seed of Isaac'.

He's correct. The idea of a literal 'seed' is implied, just as it also is by Paul in Romans 9. So try and tell us that Christ did not literally promise His Apostles to sit upon thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

It's obvious that you're into Replacement Theology big time! So you like to throw away Scripture about literal Israel's restoration under Christ Jesus. You do so at your own peril.
 

dragonfly

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Hi veteran,

So try and tell us that Christ did not literally promise His Apostles to sit upon thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Why would I do that?

So you like to throw away Scripture about literal Israel's restoration under Christ Jesus.

It depends whether you are defining 'literal Israel' in the same way as Peter and Paul. I'm with Jesus and the apostles.

It's obvious that you're into Replacement Theology big time!

I wondered how long it would be before someone said this...... You won't be surprised to hear that you aren't the first and probably won't be the last.

The problem I have with the accusation usually doesn't rest on Peter or Paul's definition of Israel, but on the extra-Biblical one which must be conjured up to accommodate the cry of 'Replacement Theology', in the first place.
 

Erudite Celt

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No I'm not, but what you wrote,

'The bible clearly states that the seed of Isaac / Israel ( seed meaning blood line ) would inherit Israel',

made it sound as if you think the Bible mentions 'seed of Isaac'.

Since scripture mentions many 'seeds', and 'seed' (seed of the woman, seed of the wicked, seed of evildoers, seed of the kingdom) and Seed, I wondered what you make of Paul's revision of the term 'children of Abraham'? (Galatians 3:7) And his statement in

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


This lines up with what John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

And with what Jesus said:

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

 
And then there is Paul's thesis in the Galatian epistle, which defines the blessing of Abraham as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, (Galatians 3:14) and shows how the Seed who inherited what was promised to Abraham, was Jesus Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The chapter ends like this:

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


This has been in the BIble for 500 years - longer - it's been the revelation for 2000 years. Do you believe it?



We know there are descendants of Abraham who reject the New Covenant - the everlasting covenant - established upon the better sacrifice of the Lamb of God, His own dear Son. And therefore we must not fall for the rhetoric which comes from the unbelieving camp of Abraham's descendants, who reject Abraham's promised Seed, Jesus Messiah, his long-awaited heir according to the fulfilment of all the prophecy which foretold the Him.
I quoted the Hebrew because the word zeh'-rah in Hebrew means seed of man and descendant, the same thing. The Hebrew word for a plant seed = Za-rom. I would never have posted my thoughts otherwise. You will notice that zeh-rah has a phonic connection with Sa-rah the mother of Isaac. This is no coincidence, the ancient scribe probably Moses wanted future generations to know that Israel was promised to the living descendants of Isaac and no one else. Not for instance the Arabs and certainly not Ethnic Germans, Russians and Turks. .
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

Umm.... from across the Atlantic.... what are 'brass brads', please?

Sure. They are brass buttons that have two flat, brass tabs extending below the button that can be inserted through the holes in three-hole-punched paper (for instance), and then the flat tabs can be folded away from each other on the other side to bind the pieces of paper together. I don't know what they might be called in your country, but I'm pretty sure that you probably have something like them in whatever stores you have that sell office supplies. My point was that these devices are highly malleable so they might be bent easily with the fingers and would NOT hold up as a common nail would if treated as a nail.


Going back to the beginning of your post, another question: you said: 'That is NOT what makes a person "of Isra'el!" '

So, how do you expound Paul's statements at the start of Romans 9, bearing in mind he is writing to a church which contains both Jews and Gentiles?

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Like this:

Romans 9:6-18
6 Ouch hoion de hoti ekpeptooken ho logos tou Theou. Ou gar pantes hoi ex Israeel houtoi Israeel:
7 oud' hoti eisin sperma Abraam pantes tekna, all': "En Isaak kleetheesetai soi sperma."
8 Tout' estin, ou ta tekna tees sarkos tauta tekna tou Theou alla ta tekna tees epaggelias logizetai eis sperma.
9 Epaggelias gar ho logos outos: "Kata ton kairon touton eleusomai kai estai tee Sarra huios."
10 Ou monon de, alla kai Rebekka ex henos koiteen echousa, Isaak tou patros heemoon:
11 meepoo gar genneethentoon meede praxantoon ti agathon ee faulon hina hee kat' eklogeen prothesis tou Theou menee, ouk ex ergoon all' ek tou kalountos,
12 errethee autee hoti Ho meizoon douleusei too elassoni,
13 kathoos gegraptai: "Ton Iakoob eegapeesa, ton de Eesau emiseesa."
14 Ti oun eroumen? mee adikia para too Theoo? Mee genoito.
15 Too Moo-usei gar legei: Ele-eesoo hon an eleoo kai oiktireesoo hon an oiktiroo.
16 Ara oun ou tou thelontos oude tou trechontos alla tou eleoontos Theou.
17 Legei gar hee grafee too Faraoo hoti eis auto touto exeegeira se hopoos endeixoomai en soi teen dunamin mou kai hopoos diaggelee to onoma mou en pasee tee gee.
18 Ara oun hon thelei eleei, hon de thelei skleerunei.
The Greek New Testament

6 Ouch = 6 Not
hoion = like/as-though
de = but
hoti = that/because
ekpeptooken = has-dropped-away
ho = the
logos = word/subject
tou = of-the
Theou. = God.
Ou = Not
gar = for
pantes = all
hoi = the-ones
ex = out-of
Israeel = Isra'el
houtoi = these/those
Israeel: = of-Isra'el:
7 oud' (oude) = 7 but-not
hoti = that/because
eisin = they-are
sperma = a-seed
Abraam = of-Avraham
pantes = all
tekna, = children,
all' (alla): = but:
"En = "In
Isaak = Yitschak (Isaac)
kleetheesetai = shall-be-called
soi = your (singular)/thy
sperma." = seed."
8 Tout' (Touto) = 8 That-thing
estin, = is,
ou = not
ta = the
tekna = children
tees = of-the
sarkos = flesh
tauta = these/those
tekna = children
tou = of-the
Theou = God
alla = but
ta = the
tekna = children
tees = of-the
epaggelias = announcment
logizetai = are-considered
eis = into/to
sperma. = seed.
9 Epaggelias = 9 Of-an-announcement
gar = for
ho = the
logos = word/message
outos: = this:
"Kata = "According-to/down
ton = the
kairon = time
touton = this
eleusomai = I-will-come
kai = and
estai = shall-have
tee = the
Sarra = Sarah
huios." = a-son."
10 Ou = 10 Not
monon = only
de, = but,
alla = but
kai = also
Rebekka = Rivkah (Rebekkah)
ex = out-of
henos = one
koiteen = union/conception/coitus
echousa, = had-acquired
Isaak = Yitschaq (Isaac)
tou = of-the
patros = father
heemoon: = of-us/our:
11 meepoo = 11 not-yet
gar = for
genneethentoon = being-born
meede = but-not/neither
praxantoon = having-done
ti = any
agathon = good-thing
ee = or
faulon, = bad-thing,
hina = so-that
hee = the
kat' (kata) = down/according-to
eklogeen = election/chosen
prothesis = purpose
tou = of-the
Theou = God
menee, = might-stay,
ouk = not
ex = out-of
ergoon = works
all' (alla) = but
ek = out-of
tou = the
kalountos, = caller,
12 errethee = 12 It-was-said
autee = to-her
hoti = that
"Ho = "The
meizoon = older-one
douleusei = shall-slave-for
too = the
elassoni," = younger-one,"
13 kathoos = 13 Like/As
gegraptai: = it-is-written:
"Ton = "The
Iakoob = Ya`aqov (Jacob)
eegapeesa, = I-have-loved,
ton = the
de = but
Eesau = `Esav (Esau)
emiseesa." = I-have-detested."
14 Ti = 14 What/Which/Who
oun = certainly/accordingly
eroumen? = we-shall-say?
mee = No
adikia = injustice
para = with
too = the
Theoo? = God?
Mee = No/Never
genoito. = let-it-be.
15 Too = 15 To-the
Moo-usei = Mosheh (Moses)
gar = for
legei: = he-says:
Ele-eesoo = I-will-be-compassionate
hon = on-whom
an = wish/supposition/possibility/uncertainty
eleoo = I-want-to-be-compassionate
kai = and
oiktireesoo = I-will-show-pity
hon = on-whom
an = wish/supposition/possibility/uncertainty
oiktiroo. = I-want-to-show-pity.
16 Ara = 16 So
oun = then
ou = not
tou = the
thelontos = one-who-chooses
oude = not-but/neither
tou = the
trechontos = one-who-runs/one-who-races
alla = but
tou = the
eleoontos = one-who-shows-compassion
Theou. = God.
17 Legei = 17 Says
gar = for
hee = the
grafee = Scripture/writing
too = to-the
Faraoo = Pharaoh
hoti = that
eis = into/to
auto = him
touto = this
exeegeira = I-have-fully-aroused
se = you (singular)/thee
hopoos = in-the-manner-that/what-how/whatever-how
endeixoomai = I-might-indicate
en = in
soi = you (singular)/thee
teen = the
dunamin = power
mou = of-me/my
kai = and
hopoos = in-the-manner-that/what-how/whatever-how
diaggelee = might-be-heralded-thoroughly
to = the
onoma = name/authority
mou = of-me/my
en = in
pasee = all
tee = the
gee. = earth.
18 Ara = 18 So
oun = certainly/accordingly
hon = on-whom
thelei = he-will
eleei, = he-has-compassion,
hon = on-whom
de = but
thelei = he-will
skleerunei. = he-makes-stubborn/he-makes-indurate.

6 Not like/as-though but that/because has-dropped-away the word/subject of-the God. Not for all the-ones out-of Isra'el these/those of-Isra'el:
7 but-not that/because they-are a-seed of-Avraham all children, but: "In Yitschak (Isaac) shall-be-called your (singular)/thy seed."
8 That-thing is, not the children of-the flesh these/those children of-the God but the children of-the announcment are-considered into/to seed.
9 Of-an-announcement for the word/message this: "According-to/down the time this I-will-come and shall-have the Sarah a-son."
10 Not only but, but also Rivkah (Rebekkah) out-of one union/conception/coitus had-acquired Yitschaq (Isaac) of-the father of-us/our:
11 not-yet for being-born but-not/neither having-done any good-thing or bad-thing, so-that the down/according-to election/chosen purpose of-the God might-stay, not out-of works but out-of the caller,
12 It-was-said to-her that "The older-one shall-slave-for the younger-one,"
13 Like/As it-is-written: "The Ya`aqov (Jacob) I-have-loved, the but `Esav (Esau) I-have-detested."
14 What/Which/Who certainly/accordingly we-shall-say? No injustice with the God? No/Never let-it-be.
15 To-the Mosheh (Moses) for he-says: I-will-be-compassionate on-whom wish/supposition/possibility/uncertainty I-want-to-be-compassionate and I-will-show-pity on-whom wish/supposition/possibility/uncertainty I-want-to-show-pity.
16 So then not the one-who-chooses not-but/neither the one-who-runs/one-who-races but the one-who-shows-compassion God.
17 Says for the Scripture/writing to-the Pharaoh that into/to him this I-have-fully-aroused you (singular)/thee in-the-manner-that/what-how/whatever-how I-might-indicate in you (singular)/thee the power of-me/my and in-the-manner-that/what-how/whatever-how might-be-heralded-thoroughly the name/authority of-me/my in all the earth.
18 So certainly/accordingly on-whom he-will he-has-compassion, on-whom but he-will he-makes-stubborn/he-makes-indurate.

6 However not as though the word of God has dropped away. For not all those of Isra'el [are] out of Isra'el:
7 nor because they are a seed of Avraham are all children, but: "In Yitschak (Isaac) a seed shall be called to thee."
8 That is, not the children of the flesh those children of God but the children of the announcment are considered for a seed.
9 For the message of this announcement: "According to this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10 But not only this, but also Rivkah (Rebekkah) out of one conception had acquired of our father Yitschaq (Isaac):
11 for not yet being born but neither having done any good thing or bad thing, so that the purpose of God might stay according to election, not out of works but out of the caller,
12 It was said to her that "The older one shall slave for the younger one,"
13 As it is written: "I have loved Ya`aqov (Jacob), but I have detested `Esav (Esau)."
14 What accordingly shall we say? No! Injustice with God? Never let it be!
15 For to Mosheh (Moses) he says: I will be compassionate on whom I wish to be compassionate and I will show pity on whom I wish to show pity.
16 So then not the one who chooses neither the one who races but God the one who shows compassion.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh that into/to him this I have fully aroused thee in the manner that I might indicate in thee my power and in the manner that my name might be heralded thoroughly in all the earth.
18 So accordingly he has compassion on whom he will, but he makes stubborn whom he will.

The point of all this is NOT that people who are not of the seed of Isra'el can be called "of Isra'el" but rather that God, though HIS compassion and HIS election chooses who would be the children of promise! The line would not be through any of the other children of Avraham, nor was it to be through `Esav (Esau). He IS, however, saying that not everyone who is from the seed of Isra'el is of Isra'el, i.e., an Isra'elite, because "he makes stubborn whom he will" ... like the P'rushiym (the Pharisees)!

Paul's point here was not the "broadening of God's selection as to who would be considered Isra'el," but the NARROWING of His selection ... at least in this passage.
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi Erudite Celt,

I quoted the Hebrew because the word zeh'-rah in Hebrew means seed of man and descendant, the same thing. The Hebrew word for a plant seed = Za-rom. I would never have posted my thoughts otherwise. You will notice that zeh-rah has a phonic connection with Sa-rah the mother of Isaac. This is no coincidence, the ancient scribe probably Moses wanted future generations to know that Israel was promised to the living descendants of Isaac and no one else. Not for instance the Arabs and certainly not Ethnic Germans, Russians and Turks.

You seem to be in considerable disagreement with the apostle Paul, and his theses in Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

1 Timothy 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith:

Why do you think Paul sets 'endless genealogies which minister questions', against 'godly edifying which is in faith'?

Why were genealogies important during the era before Christ?
 

Erudite Celt

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Why do you think the Gospels took great pains to list the genealogy of Jesus Christ? A rather fruitless exercise if it meant nothing. Paul was sent unto the gentile to bring them into the body of Christ.

Deuteronomy 14:2 says about the whole Jewish people, "The LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."

Amos 3:2 says, "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth.

Romans 11:28-29, Paul says, "From the standpoint of the gospel they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake [you Gentiles], but from the standpoint of [election, or] God's choice, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Deuteronomy 7:7-8 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers"

HOW MANY OF THE 144,000 ELECT ARE gentile???
 

[email protected]

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Apr 2, 2009
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Israel is spoken of in the scriptures as a historical nation; an allegorical nation; and a symbolic nation. There are members of this forum who promote each of these different versions of Israel.
  1. Semitic Israel is always literal Israel (promises are still given to Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews now in Palestine)
  2. The Church is now the allegorical Israel (promises were passed onto the church)
  3. Israel is now the migrated 10 tribes who are the white nations of Europe (promises were passed onto the white European nations)
  4. Israel is literal, allegorical and symbolic (some promises were passed onto the church and some still apply to Israel)
As the subject of Israel seems to spill out onto many different threads; here is an opportunity for advocates of each version of Israel to explain their views to other members. Please try to avoid the football barracking mentality (yelling and screaming from the sidelines). Give the reasons why you believe your doctrine with as much scriptural support as possible. Try not to SPAM the thread with extremely long chapters from other people’s research. I will not call anyone’s views heresy; even though I have felt this way about some modern dogmas. Some others also feel that my views are heresy.

Steve


#1 Agreed with exception. Many decent Christians today hold to the interpretations of John Nelson Darby of over one hundred fifty years ago regarding his dispensationalist diagrams of history. While a good teaching aid, Darby's notions foster anti-semitism in the modern age. There are many Christians who refuse to acknowledge Israel as an actual nation among the family of nations, that Israel has a singular place in God's work with man, and that Israel (not the United States) is at the center of all Biblical prophecy.

#2 Disagree. The church is not Israel allegorical or otherwise. Paul said that the gentiles were "grafted in" to the vine root - Jesus. This does not imply church autonomy in any way shape or form. The church is clearly a part of the vine, not a new one. There is also a warning against arrogance. If part of Israel can be cut away, so can the church. The root is Jesus Christ and He is the head, not the church and not some church leadership. We are beholden to Jesus for His mercy and should lay aside any false pretentions.

#3 The two house theory, as some Jewish scholars call it, does not imply some sort of divine seal of approval or the aforementioned autonomy originally held by the twelve tribes. While an interesting academic topic to be sure, the two house theory must take its place on the dusty shelves of speculation and controversy. We must deal with what is before us. What is before us is the sovereign nation of Israel populated by Jewish folk. What is before us is the Great Apostacy of the church predicted in the pages of the same Bible. Since May 14, 1948 the fortunes of Israel have increased while the fortunes of the church have declined. Oddly this parallels the ministry of John the Baptizer and Jesus the Christ. One grew greater while the other less. Consider this in your academic discussions about ancient history and current events.

#4 Partial agreement. Nothing was 'passed on' to the church. As a thing grafted into the true vine, the church enjoys the fellowship of God and the ministry of grace, just as Israel always did. The church and Israel are not separate things. Consider the book of Acts and the discovery by the apostles that God was willing to grant salvation to the gentiles "as God did to us". Salvation and the grace of God are not separate things. To separate the church from the true vine and Israel is to invite anti-semitism, partiality, spiritual arrogance and the lie that gentiles are somehow 'better' than those who rejected Jesus. From such attitudes was the holocaust born.

Beware Balaam's curse. Those who curse Israel will be cursed by God and those who bless Israel will God bless.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

veteran

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Doesn't one just love it when some show their Biblical ignorance about the two houses of Israel per God's Word, especially in light of the Ezekiel 37 chapter?
 

dragonfly

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Shalom Retrobyter,

Thanks for that post with all the Greek.

The point of all this is NOT that people who are not of the seed of Isra'el can be called "of Isra'el" but rather that God, though HIS compassion and HIS election chooses who would be the children of promise! The line would not be through any of the other children of Avraham, nor was it to be through `Esav (Esau). He IS, however, saying that not everyone who is from the seed of Isra'el is of Isra'el, i.e., an Isra'elite, because "he makes stubborn whom he will" ... like the P'rushiym (the Pharisees)!

Paul's point here was not the "broadening of God's selection as to who would be considered Isra'el," but the NARROWING of His selection ... at least in this passage.

Did I say something about 'broadening'? If so, I can't find it. (Can you?)

'that the purpose of God might stay according to election, not out of works but out of the caller,'

I think we agree 'the caller' is God, but what makes you say it was God who hardened the Pharisees hearts - rather than laying the responsibility upon them for their unbelief - seeing they were custodians of 'the oracles of God'? There were not a few Pharisees who received Christ, who would have fallen into this other category:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Isn't this what upsets those who don't accept the Messiah and the testimony of His New Testament? Who reject the apostles' interpretation of the (previously) written word; who reject the meaning of the work of Jesus Christ; who reject the testimony of righteousness by faith in Him? All of which may cause a believer to waver between trusting scripture from start to finish, and accepting alternative 'theologies' which Peter, John and Paul would never have recognised.

God has called those who will embrace the fatal 'narrow'ness of the cross of Christ, to inherit His promises.

It's in discussions like these, one sees afresh God's wisdom in keeping Gentiles out of the New Covenant until 'the commonwealth of Israel' had been re-established on its new footing - the blood and resurrection of the Messiah, (His ascension) and the recently poured out Holy Spirit which baptised them with the Father's promise - power.

Hi Erudite Celt,

Why do you think the Gospels took great pains to list the genealogy of Jesus Christ? A rather fruitless exercise if it meant nothing.

I asked you the question first. We know it wasn't fruitless. Do you know why it is there?

Because if you do, the reason Paul urges against discussing genealogies because they militate against faith, is also clear to you.
 

Saint

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Just who are the gentiles in Romans 2 and 9?

Rom 2:12-16 KJV For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The key words that I see here are the ones in bold. "Written in their hearts"!

The Scripture is very clear concerning who has the Law of Yahweh written in their hearts. We have three witnesses. The first is in Jeremiah 31, the second is in Hebrews chapter 8 and the third in Hebrews chapter 10.

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the YHVH: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

and

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."


This is the important key. If you are of the house of Israel you have the law of Yahweh Elohim, written on your heart. If you have the law written on your heart then you have a physical connection to the physical house of Israel. If you don't have the law written on your heart then you are not of the house of Israel. This is New Testament teaching. Yahweh Elohim has a continuing plan for the physical house of Israel. There is no justification for spiritualizing the house of Israel here. In verse 8 the writer of Hebrews quoting from Jeremiah ties this house of Israel to the physical people (and their descendants) who Yeshua brought out of the land of Egypt.

Now for Roman 9


It seems we are provided with a lot of clues regarding the Identity of just who the Gentiles spoken of in these two chapters really are.

[indent=1.125]They are "vessels of mercy". [/indent]
[indent=1.125]They were prepared for "glory". [/indent]
[indent=1.125]They were called "Gentiles". [/indent]
[indent=1.125]They were called "not My people". [/indent]
[indent=1.125]They are called "sons of the living God". [/indent]

Vessels of mercy”…I think Psalms 136 details this pretty well; it is Israel.

“Prepared for glory”…Romans 9:4 says: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory”

“Called gentiles”… There are actually several places where we are told that Israel was to be known as Gentiles or Greeks and be living among them. We are also told that Yahweh would sift them from among the Gentiles, Amos 9:9. One that is very much overlooked and is in the New Testament is found in John 7.

John 7:33 "Then Jesus said to them, "I shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me.
34 "You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come."
35 Then the Judeans[sup]1[/sup] said among themselves, "Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?"


The word "dispersion" is from the Greek word "diaspora". The definition is, "Israelite residents in Gentile countries". This refers to the Assyrian captivity from which most of Israel escaped and dispersed themselves to every corner of the earth. Many Israelites went to Europe, but in John 7 the Judeans were referring to those who moved to Greece.


“Not My people”… Those who are refereed to as "not my people" and later "sons of he living God" are identified in Hosea as the House of Ephraim.
Rom 9:24-26 KJV Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. (26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Hos 1:10 KJV Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


Sons of the living God”Hos 1:10 KJV Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

So who are the gentiles… I think it is obvious; the House of Israel has to be the answer. To read Romans 9:24-25 and suggest the reference taken from Hosea are some otherpeople would be to misread Paul’s intent.

Just a side note: going back to Romans 2 and the statement “written in their hearts”; I think this fits well with John 10:27 when Yeshua declares that “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me”. Yeshua came for the gathering of the Lost House of Israel.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob