Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[CTK]

Daniel 8
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The little horn comes out of the Grecian empire.

The reason I jumped to Revelation is because of the ten horns and 7 heads which we see described in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

We can see this final world empire described in Revelation.

Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The Beast of the Sea is the king of Babylon and the Assyrian described in Isaiah 14

First, there is absolutely NO book in the bible that is more difficult and almost impossible to interpret and unpack than Daniel. And I say that at this time because one MUST focus on what Daniel is telling us, NOT what Daniel might be telling us by looking into Revelation. It doesn't work that way. Daniel was first written for His people before He would arrive on the first day of the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Daniel and Revelation will never contradict each other but it is ONLY Daniel that will allow us to properly interpret Revelation.


So, you began to identify the little horn by jumping to Daniel 8.... however, the little horn is first introduced to us in chapter 7 and there, God does not skimp on identifying his actions, the timing of his coming, and his nasty characteristics. And because he is such an evil one, God will continue to speak about this little horn in chapter 8 - making sure no one can miss him - although EVERYONE HAS! But that too has been prophecized in Revelation.

So, if you do not mind, let's go back to chapter 7 and discuss the introduction of the little horn (and please understand, there is ONLY ONE little horn).

7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.

1) So, who is this fourth beast?
2) Do you agree that God has purposefully identified the 4 and ONLY 4 beast kingdoms that will come out of the sea? In chapter 2, do you agree the 4 kingdoms are Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and Rome?
3) Do you agree the little horn comes out of the 4th beast?
4) Do you agree the little horn will have eyes of a man and a mouth speaking pompous words?

Well, this should be a nice start..... look forward to your response... and as you can see, the answers are not to be found in Revelation - only in Daniel will we find the answers to these questions.

 

[The Light]

1) So, who is this fourth beast?

The 4th beast is a 10 horn world government.

2) Do you agree that God has purposefully identified the 4 and ONLY 4 beast kingdoms that will come out of the sea? In chapter 2, do you agree the 4 kingdoms are Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and Rome?

Yes but the 4th kingdom will be a world government that will come out of the United Nations but with roots in the EU.

3) Do you agree the little horn comes out of the 4th beast?

No. The Little horn comes out of the Grecian empire.

4) Do you agree the little horn will have eyes of a man and a mouth speaking pompous words?

Yes.

Well, this should be a nice start..... look forward to your response... and as you can see, the answers are not to be found in Revelation - only in Daniel will we find the answers to these questions.

I don't agree totally with this. I already showed how the 10 horns of Daniel 7 with 3 that are rooted up can be found in Revelation 13. This also helps us identify who the little horn is who suffered the deadly wound of the sword and did live.

 

[CTK]

The 4th beast is a 10 horn world government.

I believe God establishes 4 and only 4 metal kingdoms in chapter 2 - that is His blueprint... there are only 4 metal types and only 4 kingdoms. Where does Daniel tell us or even imply the 10 represent a world government?

Yes but the 4th kingdom will be a world government that will come out of the United Nations but with roots in the EU.

What kingdom comes after Greece? There is only one - Rome. What kingdom was in power when the Messiah arrived? What kingdom was in power the final week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy took place? What kingdom crucified the Messiah? How long did the 4th kingdom reign? When do we see its demise (7:11)?

What could possibly tell you there is a 5th kingdom? Just because you identified the 10 horns does that mean it is another kingdom?

Once again, doesn't these verses specifically tell us the little horn will COME OUT of the 4th kingdom and this little horn will only come out AFTER THE 10 HORNS COME OUT OF THE 4TH KINGDOM?

Doesn't 7:6 identify the 3rd kingdom of Greece and then in 7:7 Daniel tells us ... then, ... behold, I see a 4th kingdom?

Doesn't these verses tell us the 4th kingdom HAD 10 horns and then another little horn came out of it? Does that not tell you they (10 horns) are not another kingdom but 10 powers that come out of the 4th kingdom?

Where does the Daniel tell us or even imply the United Nations is mentioned? Isn't Daniel written for His people - before the coming of their Messiah?

No. The Little horn comes out of the Grecian empire.

Yes.

I don't agree totally with this. I already showed how the 10 horns of Daniel 7 with 3 that are rooted up can be found in Revelation 13. This also helps us identify who the little horn is who suffered the deadly wound of the sword and did live.

You have not shown anything.... who are the 10 horns, who are the 3 horns? Why are the 3 uprooted? What does that even mean? How does this speak to the deadly wound - again, you jump to Revelation to try and support the identity of the 3 horns.... you need to stay in Daniel - Daniel is not an end time prophetic book. Almost 90 % of it speaks to the period from 606 BC to the cross. The remaining 10% is chapter 11 that speaks to those events that take place as a direct result of the cross.......ONLY after the cross (except for 11:1-4).


I would ask that you will re-read verses 7:6 -8. Verse 7:6 ends with Greece, verse 7:7 begins and specifically calls out the 4th and final kingdom. And within these two verses 7:7-8, Daniel tells us some things that will come about WITHIN THIS 4TH KINGDOM.

 

[The Light]

Where does Daniel tell us or even imply the 10 represent a world government?

The 10 kings will devour the whole earth.

Daniel 7
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Why do you want to limit the discussion to Daniel without including Revelation? We find the same 10 horns in Revelation? Additionally, we can look in Isaiah 14 and identify who the little horn is. There is much, much more in the rest of the Word of God that helps paint the picture.

What kingdom comes after Greece? There is only one - Rome. What kingdom was in power when the Messiah arrived? What kingdom was in power the final week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy took place? What kingdom crucified the Messiah? How long did the 4th kingdom reign? When do we see its demise (7:11)?

What could possibly tell you there is a 5th kingdom? Just because you identified the 10 horns does that mean it is another kingdom?

It will be a world government, but the woman, the Church of Rome will be riding this beast.

Revelation 17
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Once again, doesn't these verses specifically tell us the little horn will COME OUT of the 4th kingdom and this little horn will only come out AFTER THE 10 HORNS COME OUT OF THE 4TH KINGDOM?

The little horn comes out of the kingdom of Greece.

Daniel 8
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Doesn't 7:6 identify the 3rd kingdom of Greece and then in 7:7 Daniel tells us ... then, ... behold, I see a 4th kingdom?

Yes

Doesn't these verses tell us the 4th kingdom HAD 10 horns and then another little horn came out of it? Does that not tell you they (10 horns) are not another kingdom but 10 powers that come out of the 4th kingdom?

Yes. The woman, who is the Church of Rome, will ride on the kingdom.

Where does the Daniel tell us or even imply the United Nations is mentioned? Isn't Daniel written for His people - before the coming of their Messiah?

There is much about these 10 kings beyond just Daniel.

You have not shown anything.... who are the 10 horns, who are the 3 horns? Why are the 3 uprooted? What does that even mean? How does this speak to the deadly wound - again, you jump to Revelation to try and support the identity of the 3 horns.... you need to stay in Daniel - Daniel is not an end time prophetic book. Almost 90 % of it speaks to the period from 606 BC to the cross. The remaining 10% is chapter 11 that speaks to those events that take place as a direct result of the cross.......ONLY after the cross (except for 11:1-4).

Daniel is a great book for end times study. So is the book of Revelation............and other books of the Bible.

I would ask that you will re-read verses 7:6 -8. Verse 7:6 ends with Greece, verse 7:7 begins and specifically calls out the 4th and final kingdom. And within these two verses 7:7-8, Daniel tells us some things that will come about WITHIN THIS 4TH KINGDOM.

There is a 4th beast and the woman, the Church of Rome, is riding it. However, the little horn who is the man of sin and son of perdition is from Greece. He was and is not and yet is.

Revelation 17
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[CTK]

The 10 kings will devour the whole earth.

Daniel 7
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Why do you want to limit the discussion to Daniel without including Revelation? We find the same 10 horns in Revelation? Additionally, we can look in Isaiah 14 and identify who the little horn is. There is much, much more in the rest of the Word of God that helps paint the picture.

It will be a world government, but the woman, the Church of Rome will be riding this beast.

Revelation 17
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

The little horn comes out of the kingdom of Greece.

Daniel 8
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Yes

Yes. The woman, who is the Church of Rome, will ride on the kingdom.

There is much about these 10 kings beyond just Daniel.



Daniel is a great book for end times study. So is the book of Revelation............and other books of the Bible.

There is a 4th beast and the woman, the Church of Rome, is riding it. However, the little horn who is the man of sin and son of perdition is from Greece. He was and is not and yet is.

Revelation 17
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet

I have absolutely no desire to make fun of or make light of your comments. But I will say that you refuse to use the actual words within these verses to try and develop an interpretation.

Verses 7:6-8 are not the complicated verses in Daniel 7. In fact, these are the most easily understood verses. They set the framework for the rest of the chapter, but you will not honor them.

If there is anyone that is interested in unpacking Daniel 7 or 8 or any chapter in the 12, I would welcome the opportunity to discuss these verses with you.

 

[The Light]

I have absolutely no desire to make fun of or make light of your comments. But I will say that you refuse to use the actual words within these verses to try and develop an interpretation.

Verses 7:6-8 are not the complicated verses in Daniel 7. In fact, these are the most easily understood verses. They set the framework for the rest of the chapter, but you will not honor them.

If there is anyone that is interested in unpacking Daniel 7 or 8 or any chapter in the 12, I would welcome the opportunity to discuss these verses with you.

Hey that's cool. I'll be waiting for your explanation as to who the man of sin is.

He comes from the area of the Grecian empire just like it says in the book of Daniel. I'm not sure why you are unable to realize that.

 

[covenantee]

I am not unsure about the man of sin. He is not in the Church.

Paul is consistent in his identification of and distinction between the different temples.

Paul's "naos" temples refer exclusively to NT believers; collectively, the NT Church.

In which the man of sin takes up residence and arrogates what belongs to the Son and the Father exclusively.

E.g.

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

Paul's temples:

"naos" spiritual:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

Ephesians 2:21-22
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

"eidóleion" physical:

1 Corinthians 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

"hieros/hieron" physical:

1 Corinthians 9:13
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

 

[CTK]

Hey that's cool. I'll be waiting for your explanation as to who the man of sin is.

He comes from the area of the Grecian empire just like it says in the book of Daniel. I'm not sure why you are unable to realize that.

Last chance to walk through Daniel… yes, just Daniel because that is the book where we are given God’s words / prophecies.

Focus on 7:6 ONLY - do you agree it speaks to the 3rd kingdom of Greece?

Focus on the words in 7:7 ONLY - “AFTER THIS…. And behold, A 4TH KINGDOM. …

Can thus 4th kingdom also be Greece?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Last chance to walk through Daniel… yes, just Daniel because that is the book where we are given God’s words / prophecies.

Focus on 7:6 ONLY - do you agree it speaks to the 3rd kingdom of Greece?

Focus on the words in 7:7 ONLY - “AFTER THIS…. And behold, A 4TH KINGDOM. …

Can thus 4th kingdom also be Greece?

Hey CTK, Daniel is fascinating and relevant and will again apply when this current MYSTERY AGE ends.
PROPHECY is currently on hold and you can prove that to yourself simply by finding anywhere in Prophecy where Apostle Paul is mentioned.
If you can do that, I will bow to you :)

 

[CTK]

Hey CTK, Daniel is fascinating and relevant and will again apply when this current MYSTERY AGE ends.
PROPHECY is currently on hold and you can prove that to yourself simply by finding anywhere in Prophecy where Apostle Paul is mentioned.
If you can do that, I will bow to you :)

Thank you but can you please elaborate?

 

[The Light]

Last chance to walk through Daniel… yes, just Daniel because that is the book where we are given God’s words / prophecies.

Focus on 7:6 ONLY - do you agree it speaks to the 3rd kingdom of Greece?

Yes

Focus on the words in 7:7 ONLY - “AFTER THIS…. And behold, A 4TH KINGDOM. …

Can thus 4th kingdom also be Greece?

No.

Since Daniel 8 is part of Daniel, and has information about the little horn, it falls into your perimeters of what scriptures are allowed.

Daniel 8
1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Do you agree that the ram with two horns is the second empire............the Medo Persian empire?

Do you agree that the one horned goat is the Greek empire of Alexander the Great?

Do you agree that four horns come out of the Greek empire?

Do you agree that the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek empire?

 

[CTK]

Yes

No.

Since Daniel 8 is part of Daniel, and has information about the little horn, it falls into your perimeters of what scriptures are allowed.

Daniel 8
1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Above in Daniel 7 you agreed that the 3rd kingdom was Greece (7:6). Then you agreed that 7:7-8 speaks to a 4th kingdom- WHICH CANNOT BE GREECE.

Further, you agree that 7:8 reveals the 10 horns AND THE LITTLE HORN COME OUT OF THE 4th kingdom.

The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome - the little horn comes out during the time pagan Rome is in power.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE AND THIS ESTABLISHES WHEN THE LITTLE HORN ARRIVES ON THE SCENE. Chapter 7 thus provides us with the timing of the little horn AND THIS CANNOT BE CHANGED OR INTERPRETED DIFFERENTLY IN ANY SUBSEQUENT VERSES!

And it is here (chapter 8) where YOUR INTERPRETATION of the little horn will change from the 4th kingdom (chapter 7) to the 3rd kingdom of Greece.

Before we continue, do you find this to be a problem? Should you ignore the very CLEAR statement in chapter 7 the little horn comes out of pagan Rome?

I certainly understand you believe the chapter 8 language tells you the little horn comes out of the 4 horns of Greece but perhaps this should stop you from accepting this interpretation because chapter 7 has already identified Rome as the kingdom where the little horn will come out of?

You certainly have noticed this before.. and you determined that chapter 8 language prevails over the CLEAR language of chapter 7.

Can you possibly see that chapter 7 clearly defines the kingdom and therefore the interpretation that Greece is the kingdom the little horn (chapter 8 language) comes out of is incorrect?

It cannot be both and chapter 7 DEFINES where the little horn comes out of. And can you also ignore that verses 7:19-20 reinforce the little horn will come out of the 4th kingdom?

I will wait for your response.

Do you agree that the ram with two horns is the second empire............the Medo Persian empire?

Do you agree that the one horned goat is the Greek empire of Alexander the Great?

Do you agree that four horns come out of the Greek empire?

Do you agree that the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek empire?

 

[The Light]

Above in Daniel 7 you agreed that the 3rd kingdom was Greece (7:6). Then you agreed that 7:7-8 speaks to a 4th kingdom- WHICH CANNOT BE GREECE.

Further, you agree that 7:8 reveals the 10 horns AND THE LITTLE HORN COME OUT OF THE 4th kingdom.

Negative. I have already posted the verses that 100% PROVE that the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek mpire.

I know that you cannot accept this Biblical truth because it goes against what you THINK that you have figured out. If you are looking for someone that can be the little horn, it is a Biblical FACT that they must come out of one of the horns of the Greek empire.

The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome - the little horn comes out during the time pagan Rome is in power.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE AND THIS ESTABLISHES WHEN THE LITTLE HORN ARRIVES ON THE SCENE. Chapter 7 thus provides us with the timing of the little horn AND THIS CANNOT BE CHANGED OR INTERPRETED DIFFERENTLY IN ANY SUBSEQUENT VERSES!

The Word of God clearly states that the little horn comes out of one of the horns of the Greek empire which you should realize was the division of Alexander the Greats Greek empire.

Revelation 8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This is Biblical fact. If you want to understand the Word of God you cannot reject Biblical FACT. I know that it does not agree with what you THINK, however, that does not matter.

And it is here (chapter 8) where YOUR INTERPRETATION of the little horn will change from the 4th kingdom (chapter 7) to the 3rd kingdom of Greece.

Before we continue, do you find this to be a problem? Should you ignore the very CLEAR statement in chapter 7 the little horn comes out of pagan Rome?

I'm more interested in TRUTH than playing word games that deny truth. I'm sorry that the Word of God does not agree with what you think. However, the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek empire.

the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn

I certainly understand you believe the chapter 8 language tells you the little horn comes out of the 4 horns of Greece but perhaps this should stop you from accepting this interpretation because chapter 7 has already identified Rome as the kingdom where the little horn will come out of?

I have no problem with the 4th empire being the Roman empire. However, it is CLEAR that the little horn does not come out of the Roman empire.

You certainly have noticed this before.. and you determined that chapter 8 language prevails over the CLEAR language of chapter 7.

Can you possibly see that chapter 7 clearly defines the kingdom and therefore the interpretation that Greece is the kingdom the little horn (chapter 8 language) comes out of is incorrect?

It cannot be both and chapter 7 DEFINES where the little horn comes out of. And can you also ignore that verses 7:19-20 reinforce the little horn will come out of the 4th kingdom?

I will wait for your response.

I notice that you did not respond to my questions. If you want to unpack Daniel 7 and 8 why don't you answer these simple questions.

Do you agree that the ram with two horns is the second empire............the Medo Persian empire?

Do you agree that the one horned goat is the Greek empire of Alexander the Great?

Do you agree that four horns come out of the Greek empire?

Do you agree that the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek empire?

I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding who you think the man of sin is. As I said, I'm guessing it will be the Pope.

 

[CTK]

Negative. I have already posted the verses that 100% PROVE that the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek mpire.

I know that you cannot accept this Biblical truth because it goes against what you THINK that you have figured out. If you are looking for someone that can be the little horn, it is a Biblical FACT that they must come out of one of the horns of the Greek empire.

The Word of God clearly states that the little horn comes out of one of the horns of the Greek empire which you should realize was the division of Alexander the Greats Greek empire.

Revelation 8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This is Biblical fact. If you want to understand the Word of God you cannot reject Biblical FACT. I know that it does not agree with what you THINK, however, that does not matter.

I'm more interested in TRUTH than playing word games that deny truth. I'm sorry that the Word of God does not agree with what you think. However, the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek empire.

the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn


I have no problem with the 4th empire being the Roman empire. However, it is CLEAR that the little horn does not come out of the Roman empire.



I notice that you did not respond to my questions. If you want to unpack Daniel 7 and 8 why don't you answer these simple questions.

Do you agree that the ram with two horns is the second empire............the Medo Persian empire?

Do you agree that the one horned goat is the Greek empire of Alexander the Great?

Do you agree that four horns come out of the Greek empire?

Do you agree that the little horn comes out of one of the four horns of the Greek empire?

I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding who you think the man of sin is. As I said, I'm guessing it will be the Pope.

You claim I am ignoring the literal words in scripture but I am not.

Please tell me what 7:7-8 tells you —- leave chapter 8 alone for now please.

 

[The Light]

Further, you agree that 7:8 reveals the 10 horns AND THE LITTLE HORN COME OUT OF THE 4th kingdom.

The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome - the little horn comes out during the time pagan Rome is in power.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE AND THIS ESTABLISHES WHEN THE LITTLE HORN ARRIVES ON THE SCENE. Chapter 7 thus provides us with the timing of the little horn AND THIS CANNOT BE CHANGED OR INTERPRETED DIFFERENTLY IN ANY SUBSEQUENT VERSES!

This 4th kingdom with 10 horns will be a world empire. That is how the little horn comes out of this 4th kingdom. The 10 kings will arise and after that the little horn will arrive. But the fact remains that the little horn comes out of the area of one of the four horns of the Grecian empire. That is one identifier of him.

But let's pretend that the little horn comes out of Rome. Carry on. Let's see what you got.

 

[The Light]

You claim I am ignoring the literal words in scripture but I am not.

Please tell me what 7:7-8 tells you —- leave chapter 8 alone for now please.

Ok. Carry on.

 

[CTK]

Ok. Carry on.

No, I am sorry. You will not address what 7:7-8, and 7:19-20 CLEARLY tells us and you will only accept YOUR INTERPRETATION of certain verses in chapter 8- because you have to … you refuse to accept or consider chapter 7’s clear language concerning the identity or timing of the little horn.

I am sorry but I have to move on from this interaction. Best wishes.

 

[The Light]

No, I am sorry. You will not address what 7:7-8, and 7:19-20 CLEARLY tells us and you will only accept YOUR INTERPRETATION of certain verses in chapter 8- because you have to … you refuse to accept or consider chapter 7’s clear language concerning the identity or timing of the little horn.

I am sorry but I have to move on from this interaction. Best wishes.

No worries. If your theory will not stand up to the Word of God, it is wrong.

Why the fear? I'd rather be proven wrong with scripture so I can learn the truth instead of believing something that is wrong.

To each his own.

 

[CTK]

No worries. If your theory will not stand up to the Word of God, it is wrong.

Why the fear? I'd rather be proven wrong with scripture so I can learn the truth instead of believing something that is wrong.

To each his own.

No, you are completely unable to be wrong which is why you cannot possibly address the chapter 6 verses that identify the timing of the little horn.

Take care.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You ignored the man of sin.

No, I didn't. I have explained my understanding of the man of sin many times.

A manifestation of Satan's little season.

What do you mean? Be more specific. What exactly is your understanding of Satan's binding and his little season? Do you think his little season has been going on for a long time already?

2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,8-10

Why did you ignore it?

I'm not ignoring anything. Have you not seen where I have used verses 8-10 to show what was being restrained? Stop being a child and just discuss what was written instead of making false accusations.