Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Davidpt]

Before I get into the Daniel breakdown, can I ask you one thing that I keep getting stuck on?

In Amos 8:2, God says of Israel, "The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more." That reads to me like a final word - the end has come, and He won't pass by them again.

So how do you square all the future Israel and Jewish restoration with that? If God said in Amos 8 that He was done with the people of Israel for good, where does the room come from for everything still to be fulfilled?

The verse you quoted is from Amos 8:2 (KJV). In context, it is part of one of the prophet Amos's visions announcing judgment on the northern kingdom of Israel.

A few points help explain it:

"Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more."

The immediate context

In Amos 8, the prophet sees a basket of ripe summer fruit. In Hebrew, there is a wordplay between qayits ("summer fruit") and qets ("end"). The ripe fruit symbolizes that Israel's time is "ripe---its period of opportunity has reached its conclusion.

The nation had repeatedly ignored warnings about:

exploitation of the poor,
dishonest business practices,
corrupt courts,
empty religious ritual without justice.

Amos presents the coming judgment as the culmination of longstanding unfaithfulness rather than an impulsive decision.

"I will not again pass by them"

This phrase is often understood to mean, "I will no longer spare them" or "I will no longer overlook their sins."

Earlier in Amos (7:1-6), Amos intercedes after two visions of judgment, and God relents. In the third vision (7:7-9), however, God says, "I will not again pass by them anymore," indicating that the time for delaying judgment has ended. Amos 8 repeats that declaration.

So the emphasis is not that God has permanently rejected Israel forever, but that the announced judgment---historically understood as the fall of the northern kingdom to Assyria in 722 BCE---is now unavoidable.

Is this the final word?

Within Amos itself, surprisingly, no. Although much of the book announces judgment, it closes with promises of restoration (Amos 9:11–15). Different religious traditions interpret those promises differently:

Jewish interpretation generally sees them as God's eventual restoration of Israel after judgment.
Many Christian interpretations understand them as finding fulfillment in Christ and/or in God's future restoration of Israel, depending on the theological tradition.
A broader theological observation

The verse illustrates a recurring biblical pattern:

God warns.
People are given opportunities to repent.
Persistent injustice and rebellion eventually bring judgment.
Judgment is not necessarily the end of God's covenant purposes.

So "The end is come" refers to the end of Israel's period of reprieve before national judgment, not necessarily the end of God's relationship with his people in an absolute sense. The closing chapter of Amos itself points beyond judgment to hope and restoration.

 

[IndianaRob]

The verse you quoted is from Amos 8:2 (KJV). In context, it is part of one of the prophet Amos's visions announcing judgment on the northern kingdom of Israel.

A few points help explain it:

"Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more."

The immediate context

In Amos 8, the prophet sees a basket of ripe summer fruit. In Hebrew, there is a wordplay between qayits ("summer fruit") and qets ("end"). The ripe fruit symbolizes that Israel's time is "ripe---its period of opportunity has reached its conclusion.

The nation had repeatedly ignored warnings about:

exploitation of the poor,
dishonest business practices,
corrupt courts,
empty religious ritual without justice.

Amos presents the coming judgment as the culmination of longstanding unfaithfulness rather than an impulsive decision.

"I will not again pass by them"

This phrase is often understood to mean, "I will no longer spare them" or "I will no longer overlook their sins."

Earlier in Amos (7:1-6), Amos intercedes after two visions of judgment, and God relents. In the third vision (7:7-9), however, God says, "I will not again pass by them anymore," indicating that the time for delaying judgment has ended. Amos 8 repeats that declaration.

So the emphasis is not that God has permanently rejected Israel forever, but that the announced judgment---historically understood as the fall of the northern kingdom to Assyria in 722 BCE---is now unavoidable.

Is this the final word?

Within Amos itself, surprisingly, no. Although much of the book announces judgment, it closes with promises of restoration (Amos 9:11–15). Different religious traditions interpret those promises differently:

Jewish interpretation generally sees them as God's eventual restoration of Israel after judgment.
Many Christian interpretations understand them as finding fulfillment in Christ and/or in God's future restoration of Israel, depending on the theological tradition.
A broader theological observation

The verse illustrates a recurring biblical pattern:

God warns.
People are given opportunities to repent.
Persistent injustice and rebellion eventually bring judgment.
Judgment is not necessarily the end of God's covenant purposes.

So "The end is come" refers to the end of Israel's period of reprieve before national judgment, not necessarily the end of God's relationship with his people in an absolute sense. The closing chapter of Amos itself points beyond judgment to hope and restoration.

I'm not sure how someone arrives at that conclusion when Amos 8 is a Messianic prophecy of Christ dying on the cross. If you read further down in Amos 8 and compare it to the crucifixion, it's the same story.

Amos 8:3 — "And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence."
Matthew 27:52-53 — "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Amos 8:9 — "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:"
Matthew 27:45 — "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."

Amos 8:10 — "And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day."
Luke 23:27 — "And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him."

 

[Davidpt]

I'm not sure how someone arrives at that conclusion when Amos 8 is a Messianic prophecy of Christ dying on the cross. If you read further down in Amos 8 and compare it to the crucifixion, it's the same story.

Amos 8:3 — "And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence."
Matthew 27:52-53 — "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Amos 8:9 — "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:"
Matthew 27:45 — "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."

Amos 8:10 — "And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day."
Luke 23:27 — "And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him."

Seriously, does the following---they shall cast them forth with SILENCE----remotely sound like it is describing---And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection?

Also, in Amos 8:3 who should we take the 'they' to be referring to---THEY shall cast them forth with silence?

In Biblical interpretation, it's generally stronger to compare whole scenes and contexts rather than isolated words. The fact that both passages mention "bodies" is much less persuasive when one passage describes the aftermath of judgment and the other describes the triumph of resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2Thessalonians chapter 2 explains when Jesus will return. Certain things will first occur:

1. Israel will be a country again (done).
2. The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt.
3. The rebuilding will be sanctioned by a leader known as "Anti-Christ."
4. Surrounding nations will attack Israel because of his treachery.
5. Jesus and angels will then come from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

2 Thessalonians 2 says absolutely nothing about Israel being a country again nor anything about a rebuilt Jewish temple. It does mention the temple of God, which could not possibly refer to a useless physical temple built by Jews who reject Christ. No such temple would ever be called the temple of God (God's temple) in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

ALL... of those items mentioned in Daniel 9:24 signal Christ's future return. Here's a breakdown...

"to finish the transgression" -- the transgression of desolation of Dan.8, which is about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol at the END of this world, which Jesus quoted from Daniel about 200 years after Antiochus had already been dead.

"and to make an end of sins" -- the orthodox Jews who reject Jesus in Jerusalem still, to this day, in majority there, reject Jesus as Messiah. Thus their sins have still yet to be made an end of. And God did promise to cleanse Jacob of all sin when pointing to Christ's 2nd coming and their gathering back to the lands of promise. As of today, only the Jews of the old "house of Judah" has been returning. The majority of Israelites, the ten lost tribes, are still scattered today, and most of them don't know who they are, but God knows.

"and to make reconciliation for iniquity" -- pretty much the same idea as above. Their unbelief in Jerusalem means they have yet to make reconciliation which only can happen through the Blood of Jesus Christ.

"and to bring in everlasting righteousness" -- not there yet even in today's Jerusalem for this is about The New Covenant being accepted by the unbelieving Jews, for the majority of Jews there, i.e., Daniel's people, still reject Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah.

"and to seal up the vision and prophecy" -- for the unbelieving majority of Jews, all... the previous items must be fulfilled for the whole 70 weeks prophecy to be complete, and the state of those Jew's belief won't change until Jesus returns in our near future.

"and to anoint the most Holy" -- the cleansing of the temple, which is actually after the destruction of the new 3rd stone temple today's unbelieving Jews will build under the coming false-Messiah that will appear first in Jerusalem and claim to be God and The Christ. Lord Jesus Christ, when He returns, will build the future Millennial Temple of Ezekiel 40 through 47.

Allow me to give the correct understanding of all six things listed in Daniel 9:24. Only Jesus could fulfilled the six things listed in Daniel 9:24! It is ludicrous to think that the Israelite people themselves could ever fulfill any of those things.

The New Testament tells us how those six things were fulfilled long ago by Jesus Christ. We don't have to speculate like dispensationalists about how and when it will happen. We can instead allow scripture to interpret scripture for us.

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Put An End To Sin

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation/Atonement for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.

Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week.

What Daniel 9:27 is about is that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week which caused the old covenant animals sacrifices and offerings to become obsolete and that established the new covenant. The remaining confirmation of the new covenant in the 70th week was accomplished by the preaching of the gospel of Christ in Israel before it went out to the Gentiles. The consummation mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is related to the Jews having rejected Christ and having Him crucified and that consummation occurred in 70 AD when the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were destroyed, as prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

 

[Earburner]

Before I get into the Daniel breakdown, can I ask you one thing that I keep getting stuck on?

In Amos 8:2, God says of Israel, "The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more." That reads to me like a final word - the end has come, and He won't pass by them again.

So how do you square all the future Israel and Jewish restoration with that? If God said in Amos 8 that He was done with the people of Israel for good, where does the room come from for everything still to be fulfilled?

It appears that "the final nail in the coffin" came in the words of Jesus:
Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation [of born again saints] bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Earburner]

Allow me to give the correct understanding of all six things listed in Daniel 9:24. Only Jesus could fulfilled the six things listed in Daniel 9:24! It is ludicrous to think that the Israelite people themselves could ever fulfill any of those things.

The New Testament tells us how those six things were fulfilled long ago by Jesus Christ. We don't have to speculate like dispensationalists about how and when it will happen. We can instead allow scripture to interpret scripture for us.

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Put An End To Sin

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation/Atonement for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.

Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week.

What Daniel 9:27 is about is that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week which caused the old covenant animals sacrifices and offerings to become obsolete and that established the new covenant. The remaining confirmation of the new covenant in the 70th week was accomplished by the preaching of the gospel of Christ in Israel before it went out to the Gentiles. The consummation mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is related to the Jews having rejected Christ and having Him crucified and that consummation occurred in 70 AD when the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were destroyed, as prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

AMEN!! Nicely done!!

 

[Earburner]

The verse you quoted is from Amos 8:2 (KJV). In context, it is part of one of the prophet Amos's visions announcing judgment on the northern kingdom of Israel.

A few points help explain it:

"Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more."

The immediate context

In Amos 8, the prophet sees a basket of ripe summer fruit. In Hebrew, there is a wordplay between qayits ("summer fruit") and qets ("end"). The ripe fruit symbolizes that Israel's time is "ripe---its period of opportunity has reached its conclusion.

The nation had repeatedly ignored warnings about:

exploitation of the poor,
dishonest business practices,
corrupt courts,
empty religious ritual without justice.

Amos presents the coming judgment as the culmination of longstanding unfaithfulness rather than an impulsive decision.

"I will not again pass by them"

This phrase is often understood to mean, "I will no longer spare them" or "I will no longer overlook their sins."

Earlier in Amos (7:1-6), Amos intercedes after two visions of judgment, and God relents. In the third vision (7:7-9), however, God says, "I will not again pass by them anymore," indicating that the time for delaying judgment has ended. Amos 8 repeats that declaration.

So the emphasis is not that God has permanently rejected Israel forever, but that the announced judgment---historically understood as the fall of the northern kingdom to Assyria in 722 BCE---is now unavoidable.

Is this the final word?

Within Amos itself, surprisingly, no. Although much of the book announces judgment, it closes with promises of restoration (Amos 9:11–15). Different religious traditions interpret those promises differently:

Jewish interpretation generally sees them as God's eventual restoration of Israel after judgment.
Many Christian interpretations understand them as finding fulfillment in Christ and/or in God's future restoration of Israel, depending on the theological tradition.
A broader theological observation

The verse illustrates a recurring biblical pattern:

God warns.
People are given opportunities to repent.
Persistent injustice and rebellion eventually bring judgment.
Judgment is not necessarily the end of God's covenant purposes.

So "The end is come" refers to the end of Israel's period of reprieve before national judgment, not necessarily the end of God's relationship with his people in an absolute sense. The closing chapter of Amos itself points beyond judgment to hope and restoration.

"The closing chapter of Amos itself points beyond judgment to hope and restoration."

Yes, but each showing through repentance towards God and having faith in Christ NOW, while each have breath of life, and not some futuristic man made mega moment of saving all of literal Israel in spite of themselves, whether they want it or not. No, absolutely not!!.

 

[IndianaRob]

Seriously, does the following---they shall cast them forth with SILENCE----remotely sound like it is describing---And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection?

Also, in Amos 8:3 who should we take the 'they' to be referring to---THEY shall cast them forth with silence?

In Biblical interpretation, it's generally stronger to compare whole scenes and contexts rather than isolated words. The fact that both passages mention "bodies" is much less persuasive when one passage describes the aftermath of judgment and the other describes the triumph of resurrection.

Yeah it sounds like typical Old Testament cryptic language. Just enough to hint as to what it's talking about but not enough to prove it without other scripture to tie it all together.... here a little there a little. As for who are they. I don't know for sure, but I think they are people in Jeremiah 8 that brought the bones of the prophets out of the grave and spread them before the sun.

Do you have any issue with the sun going down at noon in Amos and the darkness that came at the 6th hour (noon) in Matthew being the same thing or is it just a coincidence?

 

[covenantee]

Allow me to give the correct understanding of all six things listed in Daniel 9:24. Only Jesus could fulfilled the six things listed in Daniel 9:24! It is ludicrous to think that the Israelite people themselves could ever fulfill any of those things.

The New Testament tells us how those six things were fulfilled long ago by Jesus Christ. We don't have to speculate like dispensationalists about how and when it will happen. We can instead allow scripture to interpret scripture for us.

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Put An End To Sin

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation/Atonement for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.

Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week.

What Daniel 9:27 is about is that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week which caused the old covenant animals sacrifices and offerings to become obsolete and that established the new covenant. The remaining confirmation of the new covenant in the 70th week was accomplished by the preaching of the gospel of Christ in Israel before it went out to the Gentiles. The consummation mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is related to the Jews having rejected Christ and having Him crucified and that consummation occurred in 70 AD when the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were destroyed, as prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

Amens bro.

 

[Davidpt]

It appears that "the final nail in the coffin" came in the words of Jesus:
Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation [of born again saints] bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Everyone knows that all coins have 2 sides. You cannot argue with only one side of the coin without also considering the other side of this same coin.

So which comes first? A) or B)?


A)--Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation [of born again saints] bringing forth the fruits thereof(Matthew 21:43)

B)--Lord, wilt thou at this time restore AGAIN the kingdom to Israel?
(Acts 1:6)

 

[Davidpt]

Yeah it sounds like typical Old Testament cryptic language. Just enough to hint as to what it's talking about but not enough to prove it without other scripture to tie it all together.... here a little there a little. As for who are they. I don't know for sure, but I think they are people in Jeremiah 8 that brought the bones of the prophets out of the grave and spread them before the sun.

Do you have any issue with the sun going down at noon in Amos and the darkness that came at the 6th hour (noon) in Matthew being the same thing or is it just a coincidence?

Wouldn't the solution be this then? It's not what might fit the crucifixion that counts. It's what can't fit the crucifixion that counts.

 

[IndianaRob]

Wouldn't the solution be this then? It's not what might fit the crucifixion that counts. It's what can't fit the crucifixion that counts.

In Amos 8 God says he’s done with Israel forever. In the gospels Jesus says the kingdom has been taken and given to another nation. God is done using Israel forever.

In Amos 8 the sun goes dark at noon. At the crucifixion the sun goes dark at noon.

In Amos 8 there is mourning as for an only son. At the cross there is mourning for the only begotten son.

In Amos 8 there are many bodies in every places. At the crucifixtion there are many bodies in every place.

How does that not fit? Do we ignore all those matches because we don’t know for sure who “they” are in Amos 8?

 

[IndianaRob]

Everyone knows that all coins have 2 sides. You cannot argue with only one side of the coin without also considering the other side of this same coin.

So which comes first? A) or B)?


A)--Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation [of born again saints] bringing forth the fruits thereof(Matthew 21:43)

B)--Lord, wilt thou at this time restore AGAIN the kingdom to Israel?
(Acts 1:6)

The kingdom was restored to the godly Jews at Pentecost. It was taken from the Pharisees who lorded over the people and given back to the people, as it was in the beginning. Jesus didn't give them a time because they should have already known from what had just happened at the resurrection.

 

[Davy]

Before I get into the Daniel breakdown, can I ask you one thing that I keep getting stuck on?

In Amos 8:2, God says of Israel, "The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more." That reads to me like a final word - the end has come, and He won't pass by them again.

So how do you square all the future Israel and Jewish restoration with that? If God said in Amos 8 that He was done with the people of Israel for good, where does the room come from for everything still to be fulfilled?

You're asking a very Biblically deep question that I'm not sure you want to hear all the detail that it is about. Our Heavenly Father is covering a whole... lot of prophecy in that Amos 2 Chapter over a long period of time. And it involves the ending of the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" linked to its capital city of Samaria, and then also about the "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea which Nebuchadnezzar would later come to destroy. And then it extends all the way to end of this world, even to this day.

Amos 8:2-3
2 And He said, "Amos, what seest thou?" And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, "The end is come upon My people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

That specific "Israel" is about the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" which God had setup under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim as "king of Israel" in the northern capital at Samaria. This is why the later Amos 2:14 verse mentions "the sin of Samaria" which was first instituted by king Jeroboam, two calf idols setup in the northern kingdom at the northern areas of Dan and Bethel. (This is why I admonish brethren in Christ to not be slack in study of their Old Testament Bible histories, otherwise a lot of this Amos 2 Chapter would not make sense because of not realizing that God is pointing to two separate groups of Israelites after He split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in the days of Solomon's son Rehoboam - See 1 Kings 11 forward.)

The prophet Amos lived around 698 B.C. in the era of Jeroboam II. So that split of old Israel and the calf idol worship, the "sin of Samaria", had a long time since been going on when God gave this prophecy through Amos.

3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
KJV

When God scattered the northern "kingdom of Israel" first, the ten northern tribes, the kings of Assyria took the ten tribes out of the land captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. That happened about 130 years prior... to Judah's later captivity and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. When the ten northern tribes were taken captive to Assyria, the "house of Judah" or southern "kingdom of Judah", was still intact at Jerusalem-Judea with Solomon's temple and its service, still serving God. Then the "house of Judah" (Jews) later also fell into false worship like the ten tribes had done. And God had promised in Deuteronomy 4 & 28 that He would scatter the children of Israel among the Gentiles if they forgot Him and turned to idol worship and falseness.

So this verse about the ending of temple services and the dead bodies have to be pointing to the later destruction of the southern "kingdom of Judah" (Jews) by Nebuchadnezzar who destroyed Solomon's temple and Jerusalem, and ended the kings of the house of David at Jerusalem.

It can also point to later 70 A.D. with the Roman's destruction of the second temple and takeover of Jerusalem and scattering of the "house of Judah", because Lord Jesus even said at His 1st coming to the Jews of the "house of Judah" that their house was left desolate, mainly because of rejecting Jesus as The Messiah (Matthew 23:38). Yet I believe Lord Jesus was pointing strongly to this desolation prophecy He gave first through His Old Testament prophets.

Amos 8:7
7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
KJV

After the 1 Kings 11 split of old Israel, when the name "Jacob" is used, God is referring to all twelve tribes of Israel; not just to Jews only but also to the ten lost tribes of Israel who did not call themselves Jews from the southern kingdom of Judah.

Amos 8:14
14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beer-sheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
KJV

The "sin of Samaria" as I said before, was the two calf idols that Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim setup in the north. Jeroboam is who God had made king over the northern ten tribes and called him "king of Israel". Thus after the 1 Kings 11 split, Israel is a name specifically applied to the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel." And this still actually applies to the ten lost tribes in Bible prophecy for today as the "house of Israel." (See Hebrews 8 & 10).

I don't know if you got all that, so in Summary:

1. Amos given the prophecy after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. So Israel in the prophecy refers only to the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" which God ended first, and scattered them out of the land by the kings of Assyria.

2. Then about 120 years later, the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" would also fall away and God would bring Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon upon them, and take them captive to Babylon, destroying Jerusalem and Solomon's temple, with only a small remnant returning to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. These Jews that returned would rebuild Jerusalem and build the second temple.

3. The majority of Israel, the ten northern tribes, remained scattered all throughout the time that the Jews of the "house of Judah" continued in the old covenant and sacrifices with the second temple. Therefore, this does not fit a true restoration of the nation of Israel as it was under David and Solomon, which is the promised future condition God has promised them in final. The 12 scattered tribes must return also, and today only a small group of Jews of the "house of Judah" have been returning to the holy land.

4. In 70 A.D., the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the second temple, thus completing this Amos 2 prophecy that their house would be left desolate. It's important to realize per history that God accomplished that in stages, first in part through Nebuchadnezzar, then through the Romans in 70 A.D., because by Nebuchadnezzar the king line at Jerusalem of the house of David ended with Zedekiah king of Judah. So all that time from Neb's day all the way to 70 A.D., and even to this day, the Jews have had no king of the house of David upon a throne in Jerusalem, which points to an earlier stage of the desolation. The destruction of the second temple in 70 A.D. completed the desolation (except for the 3rd stone temple at the end of this world for the false Messiah to sit in, I believe.)

5. For the end though, when the coming Antichrist-false Messiah arrives, he will build today's Jews 3rd temple to sit in over them as GOD in Jerusalem. It will be false, thus this Amos 2 desolation still will not have ended, and the "abomination of desolation" is represented by that final desolation of Jerusalem and the coming 3rd stone temple at the end of this world for the tribulation. Only when Lord Jesus Christ appears to destroy it and build His Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40 through 47 will the temple be officially cleansed by God.

 

[Davy]

Allow me to give the correct understanding of all six things listed in Daniel 9:24. Only Jesus could fulfilled the six things listed in Daniel 9:24! It is ludicrous to think that the Israelite people themselves could ever fulfill any of those things.

I never said the fulfillment of those Daniel 9:24 items depended only on Daniel's brethren and Jerusalem. Of course they all are fulfilled by Lord Jesus Christ. You're just making up stuff I never said, which is a lie.

When will you Jews here ever get tired of personally attacking one's credibility?

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
"Man of lawlessness" (2Thessalonians 2:3) has several other epithets:
o. antichrist
o. pseudo-Christ
o. son of perdition
o. little horn
o. man of sin
o. beast from the sea
o. the Assyrian
o. seed of the serpent
o. number 666
o. false prophet
o. false witness
o. false priest
o. false king
o. false shepherd
o. false teacher

 

[IndianaRob]

You're asking a very Biblically deep question that I'm not sure you want to hear all the detail that it is about. Our Heavenly Father is covering a whole... lot of prophecy in that Amos 2 Chapter over a long period of time. And it involves the ending of the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" linked to its capital city of Samaria, and then also about the "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea which Nebuchadnezzar would later come to destroy. And then it extends all the way to end of this world, even to this day.

Amos 8:2-3
2 And He said, "Amos, what seest thou?" And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, "The end is come upon My people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

That specific "Israel" is about the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" which God had setup under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim as "king of Israel" in the northern capital at Samaria. This is why the later Amos 2:14 verse mentions "the sin of Samaria" which was first instituted by king Jeroboam, two calf idols setup in the northern kingdom at the northern areas of Dan and Bethel. (This is why I admonish brethren in Christ to not be slack in study of their Old Testament Bible histories, otherwise a lot of this Amos 2 Chapter would not make sense because of not realizing that God is pointing to two separate groups of Israelites after He split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in the days of Solomon's son Rehoboam - See 1 Kings 11 forward.)

The prophet Amos lived around 698 B.C. in the era of Jeroboam II. So that split of old Israel and the calf idol worship, the "sin of Samaria", had a long time since been going on when God gave this prophecy through Amos.

3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
KJV

When God scattered the northern "kingdom of Israel" first, the ten northern tribes, the kings of Assyria took the ten tribes out of the land captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. That happened about 130 years prior... to Judah's later captivity and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. When the ten northern tribes were taken captive to Assyria, the "house of Judah" or southern "kingdom of Judah", was still intact at Jerusalem-Judea with Solomon's temple and its service, still serving God. Then the "house of Judah" (Jews) later also fell into false worship like the ten tribes had done. And God had promised in Deuteronomy 4 & 28 that He would scatter the children of Israel among the Gentiles if they forgot Him and turned to idol worship and falseness.

So this verse about the ending of temple services and the dead bodies have to be pointing to the later destruction of the southern "kingdom of Judah" (Jews) by Nebuchadnezzar who destroyed Solomon's temple and Jerusalem, and ended the kings of the house of David at Jerusalem.

It can also point to later 70 A.D. with the Roman's destruction of the second temple and takeover of Jerusalem and scattering of the "house of Judah", because Lord Jesus even said at His 1st coming to the Jews of the "house of Judah" that their house was left desolate, mainly because of rejecting Jesus as The Messiah (Matthew 23:38). Yet I believe Lord Jesus was pointing strongly to this desolation prophecy He gave first through His Old Testament prophets.

Amos 8:7
7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
KJV

After the 1 Kings 11 split of old Israel, when the name "Jacob" is used, God is referring to all twelve tribes of Israel; not just to Jews only but also to the ten lost tribes of Israel who did not call themselves Jews from the southern kingdom of Judah.

Amos 8:14
14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beer-sheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
KJV

The "sin of Samaria" as I said before, was the two calf idols that Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim setup in the north. Jeroboam is who God had made king over the northern ten tribes and called him "king of Israel". Thus after the 1 Kings 11 split, Israel is a name specifically applied to the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel." And this still actually applies to the ten lost tribes in Bible prophecy for today as the "house of Israel." (See Hebrews 8 & 10).

I don't know if you got all that, so in Summary:

1. Amos given the prophecy after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. So Israel in the prophecy refers only to the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" which God ended first, and scattered them out of the land by the kings of Assyria.

2. Then about 120 years later, the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" would also fall away and God would bring Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon upon them, and take them captive to Babylon, destroying Jerusalem and Solomon's temple, with only a small remnant returning to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. These Jews that returned would rebuild Jerusalem and build the second temple.

3. The majority of Israel, the ten northern tribes, remained scattered all throughout the time that the Jews of the "house of Judah" continued in the old covenant and sacrifices with the second temple. Therefore, this does not fit a true restoration of the nation of Israel as it was under David and Solomon, which is the promised future condition God has promised them in final. The 12 scattered tribes must return also, and today only a small group of Jews of the "house of Judah" have been returning to the holy land.

4. In 70 A.D., the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the second temple, thus completing this Amos 2 prophecy that their house would be left desolate. It's important to realize per history that God accomplished that in stages, first in part through Nebuchadnezzar, then through the Romans in 70 A.D., because by Nebuchadnezzar the king line at Jerusalem of the house of David ended with Zedekiah king of Judah. So all that time from Neb's day all the way to 70 A.D., and even to this day, the Jews have had no king of the house of David upon a throne in Jerusalem, which points to an earlier stage of the desolation. The destruction of the second temple in 70 A.D. completed the desolation (except for the 3rd stone temple at the end of this world for the false Messiah to sit in, I believe.)

5. For the end though, when the coming Antichrist-false Messiah arrives, he will build today's Jews 3rd temple to sit in over them as GOD in Jerusalem. It will be false, thus this Amos 2 desolation still will not have ended, and the "abomination of desolation" is represented by that final desolation of Jerusalem and the coming 3rd stone temple at the end of this world for the tribulation. Only when Lord Jesus Christ appears to destroy it and build His Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40 through 47 will the temple be officially cleansed by God.

Is your view that Judah and Israel are two different peoples, or one people that was politically divided for a few centuries?

 

[Davidpt]

The kingdom was restored to the godly Jews at Pentecost. It was taken from the Pharisees who lorded over the people and given back to the people, as it was in the beginning. Jesus didn't give them a time because they should have already known from what had just happened at the resurrection.

Who then is Israel meaning in Acts 1:6? And why didn't Jesus tell them they were sadly mistaken if they thought the kingdom was going to be restored again to Israel if indeed it wasn't going to be? Jesus was not a rookie. He would not have made a rookie mistake by not telling them they were wrong if He knew they were wrong.

BTW, how much later was Pentecost in relation to when Acts:16 is meaning? Was it not some mere days later? As if it makes sense that Jesus would say to them---It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. As if within a mere few days times and seasons come and go. Except no reasonable person would insist a mere few days, maybe 50 in this case, consists of times and seasons passing by before day 50 arrives. That is profoundly absurd. Therefore, Pentecost couldn't possibly be when the kingdom is restored again to Israel. Plus it is absurd that it was not for them to know if the answer to their question lie merely days away. That makes sense exactly how?

 

[IndianaRob]

Who then is Israel meaning in Acts 1:6? And why didn't Jesus tell them they were sadly mistaken if they thought the kingdom was going to be restored again to Israel if indeed it wasn't going to be? Jesus was not a rookie. He would not have made a rookie mistake by not telling them they were wrong if He knew they were wrong.

Who is Israel in Acts 1:6? The Godly Jews. The ones who loved God and kept His commandments.

Remember there are two Israel’s in the Bible, Godly Israel and the enemies of the gospel. The enemies of the gospel were the ones who hated God, persecuted the people, murdered the prophets and shut up the kingdom of heaven against men and wouldn't let anybody in.

The kingdom was taken from them and restored to the rightful owners - the Godly Jews.