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Retrobyter

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Shalom, blessedhope.

blessedhope said:
Retro. where do you get your theology from?. its a wild read but not biblical!
LOL! "Not biblical"? Show me how it's "not biblical," and I'll tell you about "theology."
 

blessedhope

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When Biblical theology seeks to understand a certain passage in the Bible in light of all of the biblical history leading up to it and later biblical references to that passage it is systematic, historical and dogmatic theology.
The Christian theologian asks questions of the text such as:
  • How much does this writer or group know God?
  • To what extent are God's plans revealed, such as sending the Messiah?
  • How has Israel responded to God's interactions with them up to this point?
  • How is a given theme or subject progressively developed throughout redemption history?
Biblical theology seeks to put individual texts in their historical context since what came before them is the foundation on which they are laid and what comes after is what they anticipate. Biblical theology is sometimes called the "history of special revelation" since it deals with the unfolding and expanding nature of revelation as history progresses through the Bible.
Retro whats your Theology?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, blessedhope.

Alright, I'll give you my background "theology." I started with a Fundamental, Independent, Baptist theology that was premillennial, pretribulational rapturist, 3-point Calvinistic, dispensational, trinitarian theology. Then, after a couple of my "heroes of the faith" crushed my beliefs, I threw out ALL of my belief-system except for two things:

First, I believed that there was a God who had a Son, Jesus the Christ, because I had already met Him and accepted Him as my Savior by that point in my life.

Second, I believe that God would want to communicate with human beings and the only book that introduced Him and His Son was the Bible, and I kept the belief that the Bible was inerrant and God's very Word. I believed in the plenary, verbal, inspiration of God's Word.

With this foundation, I began to rebuild ONLY what could be proved from the Scriptures. Anything that was "theological only" was thrown away as worthless. For instance, I used to be told that there was a "perfect Will of God" and a "permissive Will of God." After considerable study, I came to realize that the notion of such a "permissive Will" was fiction and not supportable by the Scriptures. Therefore, that notion was discarded as worthless. I discovered that God's Will, which always was "perfect" or "mature," was something that was DONE, not something to be KNOWN. One didn't have to FIND God's Will for his or her life; one just had to DO God's Will and leave God's PLAN for the history of mankind in God's hands.

One building block of truth at a time was discovered and incorporated into my belief structure. Whatever was SPECIFICALLY spelled out in Scripture I could not ignore. Whatever was built upon speculation or a particular, questionable interpretation of an obscure passage of Scripture was discarded as something not tenable.

As a fundamental truth, I took Paul's words in Romans 3:4:

Romans 3:4
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV


As such, although I read much from various commentaries, I recognized that each and every one of them were works of men's hands and were therefore subject to men's failures and weaknesses. Every man being a liar gave me pause to be careful with EVERYONE who voiced his or her opinions on God's Word. No more "heroes of the faith" for me! I took EVERYTHING he or she said with a "grain of salt" and attempted to look up what he or she said to either confirm or refute his or her claims, as did the Bereans of old.

Acts 17:10-11
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
KJV


As my hobby and my passion, I would study the Scriptures everyday as often as I was able. As a graduate of a Bible college and a voracious student of God's Word, I was still a member of a Baptist church for several years, even after the restructuring of my belief system. As was my custom throughout life, I was "always in church whenever the doors were open."

I used to teach an adult Sunday School class, and we would study the four Gospels together with Davies' Harmony of the Gospels: King James Version by Benjamin Davies, Editor. We went through the book of Revelation together, verse by verse, studying the various things that were said. We studied many books of the Bible together and always looked up the words of a text in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

Later, when I came to realize how much fiction went into the pretribulational rapturistic point of view, I attempted to correct the teachings I heard in writing. Knowing that God was still interested in His Son's natural family, the Jews, I investigated such organizations as Jews For Jesus. Finally, I reached out to other groups of people in Christian settings. I had heard about Messianic Judaism and wanted to know what it was like to attend one of their meetings. Although a bit hesitant and sceptical of their more Pentecostal beliefs, I was greatly influenced by their more lively services.

I should back up and say that, while growing up in a Baptist church who was evangelical and understood the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the cross and the completeness of "salvation," including the "once saved, always saved" conviction, we had some unpleasant confrontations with certain women who came from a Pentecostal MIssionary Alliance church in the same town. That stuck in the back of my mind and came to the surface again when I started to investigate Messianic Judaism.

Through assurances of the rabbi that, although he believed in speaking in tongues and faith healing, it would not be a matter of contention with him if I did not, I started to attend the Messianic Synagogue in my area. While I still have these fundamental differences with them, I find that their understanding of the Jewish roots of Christianity and their willingness to see Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together in their services far outweighed the differences I had with them, and I now consider myself a Messianic Jew. (I really am Jewish because my mother's mother's mother was a Jew, according to my grandmother, but I have no "credentials" stating I am a Jew. I also know that my father's family came from Germany between the World Wars, but again, no one told any accounts as to why when I was growing up.)

Every building block of my belief system has been carefully studied, built upon previous blocks, and verified by Scripture. In fact, if a potential block of belief won't consistently fit into this belief system, then it is discarded. It must not only fit but give phenomenal linkage to previous blocks, fortifying their existence as well as the need for its own. It is AMAZING to me how well these blocks have fit together and make harmonious sense in the Scriptures! I asked the LORD a long time ago to give me wisdom in the study of His Word, and He's not failed me, yet.

So, I study no one single man or organization in my theological belief-system, but I am CONFIDENT that the structure will defend itself, and that it strictly adheres to God's Word in the minute details.

I should also mention that I am an avid student of God's Word in the original languages, Hebrew and Greek.
 
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Retrobyter

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blessedhope said:
And Evangelical bookstores typically feature many writers who hate the doctrine of an imminent Rapture of the saints, in spite of the fact that it is plainly described in Paul’s writings and the early saints were living in expectation of it.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44).

“For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10).

James and Peter and John also taught that the Lord’s coming is at hand.

“Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door” (Jam. 5:9).

“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer” (1 Pet. 4:7).

“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand” (Rev. 1:3).

In contrast, consider the following heretical statements against the imminent return of Christ:

Tony Campolo hates dispensationalism and rejects the doctrine of Christ’s imminent return. He calls it “a weird little form of fundamentalism.” Speaking at the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship’s annual meeting in June 2003, Campolo said: “That whole sense of the rapture, which may occur at any moment, is used as a device to oppose engagement with the principalities, the powers, the political and economic structures of our age” (“Opposition to women preachers evidence of demonic influence,” Baptist Press, June 27, 2003).

Brian McLaren mocks the “fundamentalist expectations” of a literal second coming of Christ with its attendant judgments on the world and assumes that the world will go on like it is for hundreds of thousands of years (A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 305). He calls the literal, imminent return of Christ “pop-Evangelical eschatology” (Generous Orthodoxy, p. 267) and the “eschatology of abandonment” (interview with Planet Preterist, Jan. 30, 2005, http://planetpreterist.com/news-2774.html).McLaren says that the book of Revelation is not a “book about the distant future” but is “a way of talking about the challenges of the immediate present” ( The Secret Message of Jesus, 2007, p. 176).

Mark Driscoll mocks the idea of a Rapture for believers and a one-world government with an Anti-christ who makes people wear a mark to buy, sell or trade (Confessions of a Reformissional, pp. 49-50). He adds that this kind of end-time “mission” is not a message from Jesus but rather one “concocted from a cunning Serpent” (“Mark Driscoll Rejects McLaren but Embraces Contemplative,” Jan. 11, 2008, http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=931&more=1&c=1).Driscoll mocks the imminent Rapture . He claims that the Rapture doctrine is evidence of the sickness of American Christians and mocks those who have the goal of leaving “this trailer park of a planet before God’s tornado touches down on all the sinners” (The Radical Reformission, p. 78). He libelously calls dispensationalists “nutty, Christian, end-times-prophecy Kaczynskis” (p. 165). [Ted Kaczynski was the “Unabomber” terrorist who murdered three people and maimed 23 others in his 18-year-long campaign against modern technology.]

Dan Kimball describes how that he rejected dispensational theology and the doctrine of an imminent Rapture and moved to his current position that “the kingdom of God is here, now” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, pp. 87-90, 102).

Ed Stetzer says it is wrong to worry about whether the Rapture is imminent. “When the disciples had an inordinate interest in the end times, much like we do today in North America among evangelicals, Jesus said, ‘Do not get focused on that’” (Breaking the Missional Code, p. 40). Stetzer is referring to Acts 1:6-8. Jesus was not talking about the timing of the Rapture but about the coming of the kingdom of God. The disciples were expecting the kingdom to be set up immediately, but Jesus told them to focus rather on preaching the gospel and leave the coming of the kingdom to Him. This passage corrects the emerging church doctrine that we are building the kingdom of God in the world today, but it does not support the idea that we shouldn’t be concerned about the imminent return of Christ.

The rejection of the imminent Rapture is not a light matter.
Shalom, blessedhope.

You should know that the Rapture is NOT the "blessed hope." The RESURRECTION is the "blessed hope," which, by the way, means "happy assurance." It's not an "I hope so" kind of hope; it's an "I know so" kind of hope! We ANTICIPATE His return! LOOKING FORWARD to His Coming like a kid on Christmas morning, we LONG for His return! "Blessed" and "blissful" come from the same root word. When we "bless the LORD," we make Him HAPPY!

Scriptures tell us that we do NOT "go to Heaven" when we die. We don't even "go to Heaven" when we are raptured! To the contrary, we go THROUGH the heavens (the skies) when we are resurrected and snatched away to meet the Lord Yeshua` in the air! We meet Him in the skies above the Land of Israel! At that point in time, He shall be on a mission to rescue His people Israel from their enemies who surround them.
 
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mjrhealth

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Rapture Ready on this forum?
Not me, im ready for whatever Christ has got me to do. If I am here so be it, if Im caught up to heaven so be it, So many think they will escape....
 

Ac28

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blessedhope said:
And Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 and we all say Jesus come quickly and He says yes I come Quickly.
I assume you're looking for the so-called rapture in 1 Thess 4 and other books of Paul written during the Acts period. If so, you are confusing 2 different dispensations. This usually occurs when people fail to rightly divide the Word of Truth as in 2 Tim 2:15.

The people during Acts that had a hope of the post-trib rapture in 1 Thess 4:15-17 had a calling, at best, of the New Jerusalem. which is located in the created heavens.

The people to whom Paul's last 7 books (Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2 Tim, Titus, Philemon) are addressed to have a pre-trib hope of appearing in Glory with Christ when He makes His appearance. Glory, in Ps 8:1, is said to be "above the Heavens. The Greek phrase translated "heavenly places" appears only in Ephesians (5 times). It means " in the super-heavenlies". It is said to be "far above all heavens". Unlike the created heavens, where the New Jerusalem is, the heavenly places are he uncreated abode of God where Christ is presently hid in God and where we that see and believe these truths are hid in Christ. You can't drag anything from the Acts period into the present 2000 year period addressed to only in Paul's last 7 books. Heavenly Places is the Holy of Holies, the Holiest of All. The New Jerusalem will be in the Holy Place

Eph 1:3 [SIZE=12pt]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:[/SIZE]

Eph 1:20-21 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Eph 2:6 [SIZE=12pt]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:[/SIZE]

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Can you see these things???


Also, the people in Eph were chosen before the beginning or foundation of the world

Eph 1:4[SIZE=12pt] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:[/SIZE]

Those in Thess were chosen from or since the beginning of the world

[SIZE=12pt]2Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning[/SIZE] chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Think about it and read Ephesians prayerfully. Take your shoes off and leave your baggage (everything you think you know) at the gate before entering the Holy of Holies, the calling in Ephesians.
 

7angels

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2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

who is this restrainer? is it the Holy Spirit? if God's Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved. but doesn't scripture tell us people will be saved during the trib? according to scripture the Father draws all people to Himself then the Holy Sprit convicts them and Jesus saves them. if God's Spirit is removed then there is break in the procedure. God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. so if there is another way to get saved according to scripture please tell me. so tell me who is this restrainer? this i believe is important to know if we are to understand the rapture. some say it is the church.

i have other questions for christians to answer but let us start with the restrainer question.

God bless