Who Really Are The 144,000?

[marks]

The reality of it all is there are symbolically 12,000 taken out of each of the twelve named tribes exactly.
Therefore figuratively, we conclude that it all totals upto 144,000 perfectly

So essentially, because the numbers are nice round even numbers then they cannot be ordinal? And if it read, 12,003 from this tribe, and 11,956 from that tribe, then you'd accept is as literal "this many people"?

That makes no sense to me.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I agree! I will not believe that God would reject people of faith, so that He may have perfect numbers for a perfect total. Therefore, I conclude that the 12000 per the 12 tribes under the OC., for a total of a 144,000 is highly symbolic and figurative, demonstrating that God did not miss a one of whom He "Remembered".
Malachi 3:16 did become Rev. 6:9-11.

Could we stretch the NC to include the OC peoples?
Could we stretch it to include ALL of Earth's inhabitants from ALL time in every tribe, nation and people?

 

[covenantee]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.

 

[Earburner]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.

It is apparent that "church-ianity" has also caused you to be swayed into believing that under the NC., there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles. NT scripture proves otherwise. Rom. 10:12.

In the face of John 7:39, your approach is negating and denying the verifiable reality and witness of Mat. 27:50-54; Malachi 3:16 and Rev. 6:9-11.
Please tell us exactly who the many people were that rose out of their graves upon Jesus' death and resurrection.
In my understanding, they WERE the symbolic 144,000 of OC. Israel.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jews are generally from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin.

View attachment 70362

Jesus called the Jews, Jews.
So did Paul.
No foul.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I agree! I will not believe that God would reject people of faith, so that He may have perfect numbers for a perfect total. Therefore, I conclude that the 12000 per the 12 tribes under the OC., for a total of a 144,000 is highly symbolic and figurative, demonstrating that God did not miss a one of whom He "Remembered".
Malachi 3:16 did become Rev. 6:9-11.

There were 12 actual apostles, even though the number 12 is symbolic.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The reality of it all is there are symbolically 12,000 taken out of each of the twelve named tribes exactly.
Therefore figuratively, we conclude that it all totals upto 144,000 perfectly, which implies the fulness of God's perfection in every living Israelite who lived under the OC by faith. Some of their names were Moses, Abel, Noah, Isaac etc.
And even the thousands whose names we will never know, but....... God DID remember them all (Malachi 3-16), and never forgot a one. Rev. 6:9-11.

Q. So then if we are "a kind of first fruits" as James 1 says, who ARE the actual first fruits?
A. All those who had died in faith of "the promise to come", ever since Adam and Eve, upto the first appearance of Jesus, the Giver of Eternal Life through the permanent indwelling of His Holy Spirit, to everyone who repents towards God and believes in Jesus. John 7:39.

Once "firstfruits" is factored in, all thst spiritualizing of numbers becomes n/a.

The fact that they are firstfruits points to harvest.

Leave out components, and never get to the truth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I am certainly not infallible and you could be right. Normally we have to go with scripture and the context of the book of revelations where symbolism abound in this case.
In Revelation 7 the 144,000 are indeed listed “out of every tribe of the children of Israel,” with twelve thousand named from each tribe (Revelation 7:4–8 NKJV). On the surface, that does sound like they are ethnic Jews. But we must look more carefully.

First, the list of tribes in Revelation 7 is not the same as the Old Testament listings of the twelve tribes. Dan is missing, Ephraim is not named, and Joseph is included — showing that this is not a normal genealogical list but a symbolic one. Scripture often uses Israel language to describe God’s faithful people. For example, Jesus told His disciples that they would “sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28), showing a spiritual meaning, not just bloodline.

Second, Revelation 14 calls the 144,000 “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” (Revelation 14:4). Firstfruits in Scripture always point to those who are set apart as holy, not only ethnic descent.

Finally, Revelation itself says that God’s true Israel is made of those who are sealed, washed, and faithful to the Lamb. Earlier in Revelation, Jesus spoke of those “who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9). This shows that being an ethnic Jew alone does not make someone part of God’s people — what matters is faith and obedience.

So while the text uses the names of the tribes of Israel, it is best understood as a symbolic description of God’s faithful servants, both from Israel and from the nations.

Nope
Once you spiritualize the literal, there will be no true investigation.
Generally when the literal is spiritualized, there is a erroneous motive.
IOW doctrine necessitates a bizarre change needed in God's word.

144k literal ethnic Jews HARMONIZES perfectly with the rest of God's word.
Flows beautifully.

But destroys certain doctrine.
Beautifully destroys it.

Note that in 99% of those spiritualizing the 144k they only respond to the firstfruits dynamic when challenged.

IOW They not only omit that component, but when challenged , reveal they have no clue as to what that means, or how "firstfruits" applies to the church.

It is amazing how that dynamic alone defeats everything they are trying to accomplish in reframing the 144k.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Consider this combo...Revelation 7:4... Then Revelation 7:9...
Firstly specific numbers are given THEN a great multitude no-one could number.
First John HEARS.....then he SEES what he has been hearing. This is the same crowd.

Not even close.
You 100% made that up.

There are several components you guys are TOTALLY swiping off the table.
All investigation will be futile once the omission dynamic is invoked.

 

[LoveYeshua]

not trying to re frame anything, personally I know you are right, it is as scripture says and as you say. we will see this shortly, within this generation.

Blessings.

 

[covenantee]

It is apparent that "church-ianity" has also caused you to be swayed into believing that under the NC., there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles. NT scripture proves otherwise. Rom. 10:12.

In the face of John 7:39, your approach is negating and denying the verifiable reality and witness of Mat. 27:50-54; Malachi 3:16 and Rev. 6:9-11.
Please tell us exactly who the many people were that rose out of their graves upon Jesus' death and resurrection.
In my understanding, they WERE the symbolic 144,000 of OC. Israel.

It is apparent that your imagination is stuck in overdrive.

Every Scripture that I've cited points in some way, indirectly or directly, to the Church in Christ, in which there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.

Regarding your "church-ianity", it is apparent that all of the following are guility of "church-ianity" .

Jesus:
Matthew 16
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Paul:
1 Corinthians 12
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

James:
James 5
14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Peter:
1 Peter 5
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

John:
Revelation 1
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

 

[Deleted member 26788]

We are TOLD who they are.
No question.

and which book was that?

 

[quietthinker]

Not even close.
You 100% made that up.

There are several components you guys are TOTALLY swiping off the table.
All investigation will be futile once the omission dynamic is invoked.

why not look at the text?

 

[marks]

There were 12 actual apostles, even though the number 12 is symbolic.

Unless something is described in Scripture as symbol, and unless Scripture tells us what that symbol means, then anyone who says it's symbol, and who defines the symbol, is only giving us their opinion, without any Scriptural weight of authority.

Certainly there were 12 Apostles, and 8 people were saved on the ark, and Jesus was in the grave 3 days, and there will be 144,000 sealed, all these numbers mean what they say, unless the Bible itself shows otherwise.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You can go to ten different Churches and you may hear ten different interpretations of just who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are. For some reason, those who don't actually know, because they don't heed what is written there in Rev.7 as being literal, come up with all sorts of wild concoctions for who it means. But stick to God's Word as written, and it becomes revealed in simplicity.

This thread sure demostrates the reality of this statement! If you discard the plain and simple, imagination runs wild!

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

Unless something is described in Scripture as symbol, and unless Scripture tells us what that symbol means, then anyone who says it's symbol, and who defines the symbol, is only giving us their opinion, without any Scriptural weight of authority.

Certainly there were 12 Apostles, and 8 people were saved on the ark, and Jesus was in the grave 3 days, and there will be 144,000 sealed, all these numbers mean what they say, unless the Bible itself shows otherwise.

Much love!

Opinion and interpretation are bedfellows of us all. Not to see this is to ones disservice. For example, is Jesus promoting cannibalism when he tells us to drink his blood and eat his flesh? ....and if we literalism is high on the agenda, 3 days in the grave is hardly accurate.

 

[Davy]

Very Good O.P., thank you. About the seal itself, In the book of Revelation, the “seal on the forehead” of the 144,000 is a sign of belonging to God and of His protection.

In Revelation 7:3–4 (NKJV) it says:
“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.”

Later in Revelation 14:1 (NKJV) John adds:
“Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”

So the seal is the name of God the Father written on their foreheads. This does not mean a visible mark like ink, but rather a spiritual sign showing that they truly belong to God, think according to His will, and are under His care.

Jesus also said in John 10:27–28 (NKJV):
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

The seal works in the same way—it shows who are His, and no one can take them away from Him.


The seal on the forehead of the 144,000 is God’s name, showing that they belong fully to Him, are protected by Him, and are marked as His true servants who follow the Lamb.

Blessings.

Also see the Ezekiel 9 Chapter where God tells angels to take an inkhorn and set a 'mark' on the foreheads of the men that sigh because of all the abominations being done. The Hebrew for the word "mark" there is the Hebrew letter Tau, which in paleo-Hebrew characters was made in the shape of a cross.

 

[marks]

Opinion and interpretation are bedfellows of us all.

So if your opinion is that the Bible doesn't mean what it says, what's to be done? I'm not going to try to talk you into it!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

You made an assumption right at the beginning of your OP:



This event could be describing what happened in Ezekiel:



How are you so sure your assumption is correct?

Because the main subject is not actually just the four angels being held back from the four winds blowing, but also about the SEALING of God's servants for the END of this world. That Rev.7 Chapter even points to the time of "great tribulation" which is a reference about the end of this world. And that SEALING is shown in the Rev.9 Chapter which is timed with the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period, which is a time just prior to the "great tribulation", since the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is tribulation timing. How is it that you missed all these signs Lord Jesus gave there?

 

[Exegesis]

Because the main subject is not actually just the four angels being held back from the four winds blowing,

Yes, obviously you did not see the part I highlighted in bold. Go back and read it again.

...but also about the SEALING of God's servants...

Which happened in Ezekiel while the tribes listed in Revelation actually existed.

...for the END of this world.

Again, you made an assumption. How many times must I point this out?

That Rev.7 Chapter even points to the time of "great tribulation"...

Actually it does not. You just made another assumption which you have yet to prove is valid.

Since the Great Tribulation began in 70AD and continues to this day, you are already in false teaching territory.

...which is a reference about the end of this world.

Here we go again. False assumption.

And that SEALING is shown in the Rev.9 Chapter

That is a separate event which I do believe is still future from where we are now.

...which is timed with the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period,...

Irrelevant.

...which is a time just prior to the "great tribulation"

Again, we are in Great Tribulation. It is not something that 'will happen one day'.

How is it that you missed all these signs Lord Jesus gave there?

Ah yes. Your response would not be complete with out your usual pride and hubris on full display.

Just an FYI...

Real scholars and teachers do not make immature comments like that, especially when they are unable to prove they are correct. Arrogance combined with ignorance is never a good combination. I recommend you ease up on the grade school rhetoric if you want folks to take you seriously.