Who Wrote the Books of Moses?

[marks]

There have always been issues between Genesis chapters one and two.
And even serious questions about chapter one, in terms of the order of events and the measure of days.
Case in point. We have a sunset and sunrise on day one. (before the sun and moon were placed on the fourth day)

I don't have any issues myself with anything.

Yes, there was light before the sun was created.

I don't see why the entire natural order would have to be defined in the same moment. Even as I think about it, it seems to me that activities outside of what we normally think of as the natural order are a display of God's divine power. So we have evening but no sunset, morning but no sunrise.

For all I know, God had divided light from darkness, the light was to one side of the earth, leaving the other side in darkness, even though God had not yet gathered that light into an orb, and many orbs.

I find it easy to have a little flexibility of the mind that I don't have a problem with these things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

From the same source.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Below you will find a short timeline of the ancient cultural texts that historically predated the bible; most of which were used to create the bible.

Ancient Cultural & Spiritual Texts​

• The Emerald Tablets of Tehuti, (36,000 B.C.)
  The oldest known writing in human history, written by the ancient Egyptian philosopher and scribe, Tehuti, known today as Thoth or Hermes. This book is known by scholars and thought leaders as the foundation of ancient wisdom; and many biblical themes come from this text.
• The Pyramid Texts, (3000 B.C.)
  A collection of ancient Egyptian spiritual texts from the walls and tombs in the pyramids of ancient Egypt, that formed the basis for many of the bible-based religions around the world today.
• The Sumerian Texts, (2500 B.C.)
  A collection of thousands of ancient Sumerian writings on stone tablets; depicting their culture and creation story of humanity and being ruled by the fallen Gods of Heaven. Their oldest known writings are the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh Temple Hymn; which both have themes that show up in biblical books such as Enoch and Daniel.
• The Coffin Texts, (2400 B.C.)
  A collection of ancient Egyptian spiritual texts found in the coffins of ancient Egypt; consisting of incantations and spiritual formulas to help the decease navigate through the afterlife; and to prepare for the judgement day of the dead. This is where the biblical concept of end-time judgement derives from.
• The Ebla Tablets, (2300 BC.)
  A collection of over 18,000 tablets of from the ancient city of Ebla, Syria. Written in Sumerian script, these tablets include the first know reference of the ancient Canaanites and their deity, Yah.
• The Hammurabi Code, (2250 BC)
  An 8-foot stone tablet featuring the a set of over 200 written laws for human conduct among the citizens of Ancient Babylon. Many of these laws run parallel to the laws for the Israelites in the torah.
• The Babylonian Ark Tablet, (2000 B.C.)
  A stone tablet from ancient Babylon, detailing a Great Flood that hit the earth, and a man on an ark who survived it. This is said to be oldest known story of the flood.
• The Sumerian tablets of Nippur, (1700. B.C.)
  A stone tablet from the ancient Sumerian city of Nippur, featuring the creation of humanity and their culture’s flood story.
• The Atra-Hasis, (1650 B.C.)
  An ancient account of Akadian/Babylonian culture, written in Akandian language on clay tablets; which includes a story about a Great Flood and a man who survives it on a coracle boat. According to an old Zondervan Study Bible book, the Atra-hasis was used as the basis for creating Genesis, chapters 1-9.
• The Book of Coming Forth By Day, (1500 B.C.)
  A collection of ancient Egyptian writings that guides the dead into the light for the next life, and includes previous Egyptian writings such as The Pyramid texts and the Coffin texts. This text also includes the 42 laws of Ma’at, which is where the biblical commandments derived from.
• The Amarna Letters, (1350 B.C.)
  A collection of hundreds of clay tablets written primarily by Canaanite scribes detailing the politics and social relations with the Egyptian rulers of Ancient Canaan. These writings mention the African Haburu people (the modern day Kiyuku tribe of Kenya) conquering the land of Canaan and provides the foundation for what became the book of Joshua.
• The Nubian Tablets of Kush, (1300 B.C.)
  A collection of Nubian tablets from the ancient Kingdom of Kush, that feature funerary writings similar to the ancient Egyptians; including the honor of the Goddess Ma’at.
• The Wisdom of Amenemope, (1075 B.C.)
  A series of wisdom texts from the Egyptian sage Amenemope that reveal the wisdom of Ancient Egypt and used as the basis for the book of Proverbs and the Wisdom of Solomon.
• The Babylonian Theodicy, (1000 BC)
  A poem written in Ancient Babylon on clay tablets, which is a from a collection of other Babylonian writings, and was allegedly reworked and used to create the book of Job.
• The Dead Sea Scrolls, (250 B.C.)
  A collection of over 800 Hebrew scrolls about the life, culture, and scriptures of the Essene Priesthood, which features the Old Testament scriptures and lost books such as Enoch.
• The Septuagint Old Testament, (132 B.C.)
  The first ever published collection of the Old Testament, occurring in Alexandria Egypt when both Egypt and the Hebrews were under the rule of the Greeks.
• The Gospel of The Nazarenes, (100 A.D.)
  An account of the testimony of Jesus from the Nazarene priesthood, and is the source from which the biblical gospels derived from. This gospel has a few different versions; but the original copies have been destroyed or hidden.
• The Gospel of The Egyptians, (150 A.D.)
  An account of the testimony of Jesus from the Hellenized Egyptian perspective, and one of the first known gospels to be mentioned by church writers during the 2nd century. This gospel no longer exists.
• The Nag Hammadi Scriptures, (200 A.D.)
  A collection of early christian writings found in Egypt that were circulating during the 2nd and 3rd centuries prior to the invention of Christianity. This collection is also known as the Gnosis Gospels.
• The Jerusalem Talmud, (300 A.D.)
  A collection of Jewish commentary and wisdom concerning the oral history and laws of the biblical Jews. This the first Talmud ever published and it’s the foundation for the religion of Judaism.
• The Codex Vaticanus, (367 A.D.)
  The first ever canonization of biblical manuscripts. It was written in Egypt using the Greek language and is the foundation for all subsequent translations, such as the Latin Vulgate.
• The Birmingham Quran, (645 A.D.)
  A collection of Muslim writings from the Arabian prophet Muhammad, detailing the oral history and culture of the Hebrews from an Arab perspective. This book is now called the Koran and the foundation of the Islam religion.
• The Wycliffe Bible, (1384 A.D.)
  The first complete bible to ever be published and made available to be read by the public. This bible was originally handwritten in Old English by John Wycliffe and had 80 books in it; and is the foundation of all modern bibles.

A Historical List of Ancient Texts That Predate The Bible

It is widely believed by people of faith that the bible is the authentic word of God and that it’s the oldest book in the world. As a former believer, I myself used to share this perspective …

moreesemadu.com

Be specific. Your post seems to be wildly inaccurate. The Nag Hammadi? Seriously?

Which of the Books of Moses can you prove are from another text? Quote the passages, show to facts. Otherwise I'll report this for being off topic to be removed. This thread is about the authorship of the first 5 books, not to declare the Bible in general to be a collection of plagerized pagan and quasi-Christian texts.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
If Moses didn't write it, it was credited to him. Just a way to refer to something.
We do the same with the gospel accounts. Some believe that Matthew, Mark, and Luke did not write those books.
But we happily refer to the gospel according to Matthew, and so on.

Right.
What about Matthew, Mark, and Luke?
Have you heard of Gospel Q?

The idea of a gospel Q is that the synoptic gospels came from a single source
(or written oral tradition) with a few modifications for each of the three. (Matthew, Mark, and Luke)
The writings dates are nearly 30 years after Jesus' death and resurrection.

Imagine not reading any news about the 9/11 Twin Towers collapse until 30 years after the events.
We would have to wait another seven yeas from 2023.

 

[Wick Stick]

• The Emerald Tablets of Tehuti, (36,000 B.C.)
  The oldest known writing in human history, written by the ancient Egyptian philosopher and scribe, Tehuti, known today as Thoth or Hermes. This book is known by scholars and thought leaders as the foundation of ancient wisdom; and many biblical themes come from this text.

It's a forgery. 8th century AD at earliest. Kind of undermines the rest of the post, which is otherwise pretty good.

 

[St. SteVen]

Which of the Books of Moses can you prove are from another text? Quote the passages, show to facts. Otherwise I'll report this for being off topic to be removed. This thread is about the authorship of the first 5 books, not to declare the Bible in general to be a collection of plagerized pagan and quasi-Christian texts.

Seriously?
You would report it either way.
Obviously you are angry and want revenge. I'll bow out. I knew this would happen.

@Wick Stick

 

[marks]

Back to topic, 5 books of Moses, use facts.

Thank you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Seriously?
You would report it either way.
Obviously you are angry and want revenge. I'll bow out. I knew this would happen.

@Wick Stick

No, if you do as I've asked, I would do as I've said. No need to ascribe emotionalism, or some need for vengeance. But this is a way you can deflect from you to me.

As I said, this thread is about 5 books of Moses, and I'm not offering it up to you to copy/paste websites that are bashing the whole Bible, and that without specific facts.

Like I said, if you think there are passages that Moses, or someone in his name, lifted from other sources, feel free, but post the facts, not just vague mentions.

If you are bowing out I'll consider the matter closed. It's up to you.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

Which of the Books of Moses can you prove are from another text?

Well... Exodus and Deuteronomy duplicate a bunch of material. One of them was copied from the other... or they both were copied from a common text that pre-dates them both.

Scholars used to think Exodus was earlier and Deuteronomy was the "2nd Law." Recently most have reversed course on that and now believe Deuteronomy to be the earlier text.

 

[marks]

Well... Exodus and Deuteronomy duplicate a bunch of material. One of them was copied from the other... or they both were copied from a common text that pre-dates them both.

Scholars used to think Exodus was earlier and Deuteronomy was the "2nd Law." Recently most have reversed course on that and now believe Deuteronomy to be the earlier text.

I think some of them consider Deuteronomy to be a record of Moses' teaching to the Israelites in the final weeks before he died, and they would cross the Jordan. That this was a retelling, Moses' last chance to give them something, as he reminded them of many things. This would be 40 years after Exodus, and to a new generation. All this means I'm not surprised to see duplication between the two,

Doesn't "Deuteronomy" itself translate as Second Law?

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

Which of the Books of Moses can you prove are from another text?

Oh, another one...

Part of the story of Noah and the Flood (Gen 6-9) appears to have a common source with the Rig Veda. Noah has a different name there, but his 3 sons have similar names, and there's a great flood. Having trouble finding a reference.. not used to looking up Hindu texts

Anyhow, many of the ancient people of India appear to have migrated there from the Caucusus - the same region as Mt Ararat. The civilization of that place and time is known as Urartu to modern archaeologists.

-Jarrod

 

[Wick Stick]

Doesn't "Deuteronomy" itself translate as Second Law?

Yep. But that name was given to it by the folks who translated it into Greek about a thousand years after it was written, so we shouldn't read too much into the name.

I think some of them consider Deuteronomy to be a record of Moses' teaching to the Israelites in the final weeks before he died, and they would cross the Jordan. That this was a retelling, Moses' last chance to give them something, as he reminded them of many things. This would be 40 years after Exodus, and to a new generation. All this means I'm not surprised to see duplication between the two,

Deuteronomy gives us its setting. The Israelites are camped in "Shittim" - the Acacia forest to the east of the Jordan and a little north of the Dead Sea. Chronologically it is prior to the crossing of Jordan and invasion of the Promised Land.

However, only the first 5 chapters recap earlier events. Starting at 6:4 the book launches into original material, with Moses prophesying and giving a series of blessing and curses. The Israelites are made to recite the blessings and curses from 2 mountains, with the understanding that if they obey the Law they will receive the blessings, and if not then they get the curses.

The duplication of material is not surprising. What is strange is that some of the material in Deuteronomy that purports to be originally given right then - on that day - by Moses... somehow finds its way back into Exodus, word-for-word.

It appears to me that Deuteronomy is the original narrative composition of Moses. Well... the book says that it is. Exodus by contrast looks to be constructed as a chronological history at a later date, and it so it borrows material.

So Exodus is a book about Moses, using information and direct quotes from Moses. So I reckon it's a "book of Moses," even if someone else put all that together well after Moses' death.

-Jarrod

 

[marks]

Yep. But that name was given to it by the folks who translated it into Greek about a thousand years after it was written, so we shouldn't read too much into the name.

Deuteronomy gives us its setting. The Israelites are camped in "Shittim" - the Acacia forest to the east of the Jordan and a little north of the Dead Sea. Chronologically it is prior to the crossing of Jordan and invasion of the Promised Land.

However, only the first 5 chapters recap earlier events. Starting at 6:4 the book launches into original material, with Moses prophesying and giving a series of blessing and curses. The Israelites are made to recite the blessings and curses from 2 mountains, with the understanding that if they obey the Law they will receive the blessings, and if not then they get the curses.

The duplication of material is not surprising. What is strange is that some of the material in Deuteronomy that purports to be originally given right then - on that day - by Moses... somehow finds its way back into Exodus, word-for-word.

It appears to me that Deuteronomy is the original narrative composition of Moses. Well... the book says that it is. Exodus by contrast looks to be constructed as a chronological history at a later date, and it so it borrows material.

So Exodus is a book about Moses, using information and direct quotes from Moses. So I reckon it's a "book of Moses," even if someone else put all that together well after Moses' death.

-Jarrod

OK, I understand. It's a fair debate, asking whether the very same thing were given word for word 40 years earlier, or was it compiled for completeness later, I think is your idea on this?

I know there's a particular passage that argues strongly that someone other than Moses was involved in his books,

Deuteronomy 34:5-7 KJV
5) So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6) And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7) And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

And of course it goes on for the remainder of the chapter. It seems to me this was written by someone who was at least in this small degree, to write the ending, an editor of Moses' writing. I wouldn't have an issue had someone done more to organize and edit as well. Proverbs 25 was apparently added later from previously uncollected proverbs.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Oh, another one...

Part of the story of Noah and the Flood (Gen 6-9) appears to have a common source with the Rig Veda. Noah has a different name there, but his 3 sons have similar names, and there's a great flood. Having trouble finding a reference.. not used to looking up Hindu texts

Anyhow, many of the ancient people of India appear to have migrated there from the Caucusus - the same region as Mt Ararat. The civilization of that place and time is known as Urartu to modern archaeologists.

-Jarrod

I think every major culture of that time evidences a flood story.

Has anyone read "Ages in Chaos"? Immanuel Velikovsky? He wrote a couple of others, Earth In Upheaval, and, Worlds in Collision. Worlds in Collision catalogues the cosmological evidence, Earth in Upheaval catalogues the geological evidence, and Ages in Chaos catalogues the historical evidence of the earth's cataclysmic past.

He covers this extensively. Also the events of the exodus (they heard the trumpeting of God's Voice in China, for instance). Joshua's long day was matched with a long night in the Americas. Things like that.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

I think every major culture of that time evidences a flood story.

Everyone has a flood story, but this one is very close to the Biblical account. In the story the sons' names are Shem, Sham, and Jiputnu - very close to the Shem, Ham, and Japheth in Genesis.

 

[St. SteVen]

Great links, and I shall save these also. (Dand, that cloud is gonna fall on my head soon from weight) but you need to amend your prior post of

"It is widely believed by people of faith that the bible is the authentic word of God and that it’s the oldest book in the world. As a former believer, I myself used to share this perspective as well. But when I began to step away from my religious bias and to seek out the facts for myself, I discovered this not to be true." Source below

It is not clear you are referring to being a former believe that the bible is what you are referncing.

You need to modify this for clarity.

Also, are you saying it is not the authentic word of God? Or does that just apply to modern translations such as King Jimmy's

Well...
The quote in my post is in quotations (quote marks) with the source IMMEDIATELY following the quote.
So, I'm should be covered, but... ??? Those are not my words.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic, but...

New topic to check out. Are you in exile?

In exile from the church - disconnected from what?

Whether by personal decision, or being forced out, some (or many?) are exiled from the institution of the church. I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church. Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...)...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Nancy]

Wow.
Those are some great points.
BTW: This discussion seems to be going pretty well.


Yes.
Begs the question: What is inspiration needed for in scripture writing.
Not every word needs to be inspired.

All Scripture is God-Breathed

10 "But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
2 Timothy 3:10-17

Seems very clear to me that The Lord's words are what is written throughout, new and old Testaments. I doubt He is wringing His hands in worry that His scripture is being changed. Men do wrest scripture out of context ALL THE TIME, and come up with all sorts of silliness and imaginations.
The Lord knows how to preserve His words, that go on forever, and since "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God" , we need not to add outside sources to His words. Historical reasons for outside info yes, it comes in handy for sure but it is not inspired of God, not the true one any how.
JM2C

 

[Nancy]

Or, someone could make a new thread?

 

[Wick Stick]

What is inspiration needed for in scripture writing?

Most of Orthodox Christianity uses this as a vouch-safe. "Inspired" is commonly held to mean "error-free." I know I was taught that.

However, I find a couple problems with that equivalence.

First, do we even have the original text? The manuscripts of Scripture that we have contain many small differences, and there's evidence that some bits were added later (e.g. the ending of Mark).

Second, inspiration doesn't guarantee that we're going to correctly understand/interpret/translate the text. That's a big one.

-Jarrod

 

[Rockerduck]

I don't think that's what happened. I think most of the older material came to Moses from his father-in-law:

1) Moses married the daughter of Jethro, the High Priest in Midian. (Exo 3:1)
2) Jethro's descendants were a clan of scribes. (1Chr 2:55)
3) Jethro was a descendant of Esau. (Jud 1:16 + a bunch of genealogies in Gen and 1Kings)

So I'm guessing that Jethro - the head of a clan of scribes and himself a high priest - had a bunch of scrolls recording recording his own tribe's history... which turns out to be the same as the Israelites' history down to the point of Jacob & Esau, since they are distant cousins.

edit: This isn't my idea. This is a summation of a scholarly theory known as the Kenite Hypothesis. I should give credit, but I don't have a citation since I just wrote from the top of my head.


Yes, but I don't think we're going to agree on this point. I don't think everything in the Bible is inspired. I think the parts written by the prophets are inspired, along with the words attributed directly to God. The histories written by the priests... not so much.

-Jarrod

Moses went to the land of Midian. Jethro was a Midianite Priest. As you can see. Midianites descended from Abraham. It was no accident that Moses went to the land of Midian. By the way, Ishmaelites came from Abraham too.

Genesis 25:1-2 - Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah. 2 And she bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.

 

[ChristisGod]

ChristisGod said:
except Jesus and the Apostles directly said Moses wrote them.

They are literally referred to as the Books of Moses in the NT.

and Moses is the one who wrote them according to Jesus and the Apostles.