Why a man and a woman?

[aspen]

I know there have been discussions like this previously, and believe me, I say this to the best intent, because I have quite alot of friends who don't see what's wrong with homosexual marriage. Let me explain why I believe it is wrong, and why EVERY true Christian should be opposed to homosexual marriage:

Who instituted marriage and why? This question should answer whether homosexual marriage is ok.

God instituted marriage for reproduction and strengthening the bond between a man and his wife. It was never intended for a man and a man, or a woman and a woman: God detests such unions, therefore I think it would be wrong to say homosexual marriage doesn't matter. We all agree that God has explicitly stated in his word that homosexuality is a sin. We also know that the punishment for a homosexual act in the OT was death. Now ask yourself, which is more casual, just the act, or an actual 'marriage'? I think you know the answer. Homosexual actions fly in the face of God. What does homosexual marriage do? And what do Christians accepting homosexual marriage really condone? The moment you as a Christian say it's ok, you have just condoned something God condemned. I would not like to be doing any such thing. We don't need to even risk being on the wrong side of God.

The days we are in are dark. We need to be lights on a hill. When the giants come and demand whether we support their sins, we need to stick our heads out of our shells and say, "No, I don't, because my God condemns it."

I understand that you want to stand up for what is right and encourage others to do the same. The problem is that you are making choices for other people. Now, if you were a homosexual or had homosexual tendencies and chose to be celibate as and example to other people who struggle with the same issues - I would applaud your efforts. You are right, according tot he Bible, homosexuality is a sin and God hates sin, yet He allows people to engage in sin, all the time - He does not stop them from making poor choices. why do you believe we are supposed to?When Peter wanted to stop Jesus from going to the cross - because he loved Him and wanted to stop what he viewed as a great evil, Jesus said 'get behind me Satan!" I think we have to be very careful about how decide to intervene in another person's freewill - particularly when it comes to adult, nonbelievers.

As for me, I would like to be a good example to others in the areas I am tempted by - it makes no sense to me to fight against a sin I am not tempted by, especially a sin that God allows to exist, practiced by nonbelievers.

You don't trouble anyone,once again Aspen.....you're not that important...you are leading people,or as you put it "loving" people to Hell and you will not escape it yourself if you continue.The bible is the whole and inspired word of God and you will not change it,it will either change and command you or you will be condemned by it.

ho-hum

psst...Obama 2012!

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

So it troubles you that I believe homosexuality is a sin and I believe homosexuals should be able to marry?

Do you? I thought you said you find it hard to accept. Saying you think it is a sin and saying you find it hard to accept suggests to me you say one thing but would change your mind if you could. If you believe it is a sin then you should have said you found it hard (Past tense)

Not sure why you are confused,

I am not confused with the word of God but I am confused with what you are saying. There is no such thing as 'homosexual marriage' in scripture, nor 'Christian homosexuality'

aspen2,

So it troubles you that I believe homosexuality is a sin and I believe homosexuals should be able to marry?

Do you? I thought you said you find it hard to accept. Saying you think it is a sin and saying you find it hard to accept suggests to me you say one thing but would change your mind if you could. If you believe it is a sin then you should have said you found it hard (Past tense)

Not sure why you are confused,

I am not confused with the word of God but I am confused with what you are saying. There is no such thing as 'homosexual marriage' in scripture, nor 'Christian homosexuality'

Aspen2,

The problem is that you are making choices for other people.

Ok, so would you allow paedophiles to have sex with children or would you make the choice for them to prevent them? Given the democratic vote?
I suspect you most certainly would make the choice for them as you see paedophilia as unacceptable. So why not homosexuality? I mean you have said you believe it is a sin right?

 

[Strat]

I understand that you want to stand up for what is right and encourage others to do the same. The problem is that you are making choices for other people. Now, if you were a homosexual or had homosexual tendencies and chose to be celibate as and example to other people who struggle with the same issues - I would applaud your efforts. You are right, according tot he Bible, homosexuality is a sin and God hates sin, yet He allows people to engage in sin, all the time - He does not stop them from making poor choices. why do you believe we are supposed to?When Peter wanted to stop Jesus from going to the cross - because he loved Him and wanted to stop what he viewed as a great evil, Jesus said 'get behind me Satan!" I think we have to be very careful about how decide to intervene in another person's freewill - particularly when it comes to adult, nonbelievers.

As for me, I would like to be a good example to others in the areas I am tempted by - it makes no sense to me to fight against a sin I am not tempted by, especially a sin that God allows to exist, practiced by nonbelievers.



ho-hum

psst...Obama 2012!

I actually don't have a problem with Obama in 2012....this country is ripe and richly deserving of judgement and he might just be the man to do it...he's done pretty good so far...people like you will get their due as well....so yeah....Obama in 2012 because there is a point where "God bless America" becomes a request for God to bless sin.

The statement about not fighting a sin you are not tempted by is hypocritical in light of your accusation that Homosexuality is singled out by christians while you single it out.... then you add that it is a sin God allows...God allows all sins but they are all condemned by him...strange that you are all for people's free will to commit sin yet want to protect them from the consequences of their sin which in most cases is the only thing that will turn them away from it and to God....is daily medication of some kind the source for this convoluted logic or do you come by it naturally ?

 

[aspen]

aspen2,
Do you? I thought you said you find it hard to accept. Saying you think it is a sin and saying you find it hard to accept suggests to me you say one thing but would change your mind if you could. If you believe it is a sin then you should have said you found it hard (Past tense)

LOL - my 6th grade English teacher would have loved you. My statement is crystal clear - stop trying to make it sound like I really do not believe homosexuality is a sin. Now you are just trying to be provocative.

I am not confused with the word of God but I am confused with what you are saying. There is no such thing as 'homosexual marriage' in scripture, nor 'Christian homosexuality'

This statement is just an attempt to argue.

Aspen2,
Ok, so would you allow paedophiles to have sex with children or would you make the choice for them to prevent them? Given the democratic vote?
I suspect you most certainly would make the choice for them as you see paedophilia as unacceptable. So why not homosexuality? I mean you have said you believe it is a sin right?

So if I believe that two nonchristian adults have the right to engage in a same sex relationship and call it marriage, I must be an advocate for adults abusing children? What a sick comparison. Since you believe men and women should be able to marry, do you also believe that pedophiles are doing nothing wrong as long as the marry their victims before abusing them? That comparison is about as stupid as yours.

 

[Groundzero]

I understand that you want to stand up for what is right and encourage others to do the same. The problem is that you are making choices for other people. Now, if you were a homosexual or had homosexual tendencies and chose to be celibate as and example to other people who struggle with the same issues - I would applaud your efforts. You are right, according tot he Bible, homosexuality is a sin and God hates sin, yet He allows people to engage in sin, all the time - He does not stop them from making poor choices. why do you believe we are supposed to?When Peter wanted to stop Jesus from going to the cross - because he loved Him and wanted to stop what he viewed as a great evil, Jesus said 'get behind me Satan!" I think we have to be very careful about how decide to intervene in another person's freewill - particularly when it comes to adult, nonbelievers.

As for me, I would like to be a good example to others in the areas I am tempted by - it makes no sense to me to fight against a sin I am not tempted by, especially a sin that God allows to exist, practiced by nonbelievers.

Well, i see where you're coming from, but I defer on these grounds: firstly, the majority of homosexuals are not quiet about their sin. They propagate it violently. Check out one interesting link http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Sodomy/pederasts.htm. Now that wasn't actually the example I wanted to use, but I don't have time. It was a statement made by a prominent homosexual about what their goal was. General theme was: destroy the fabric of family. Aspen, I understand that you want to stay neutral, but when you are faced with something this aggressive, you can't let it come to you. You have to meet it face on. If we don't meet offense with counteroffense, we will lose. A saying in rugby league and bball, is, you can't win a game without the ball. We won't win if we're always on the defense. We need to be on the counteroffensive. Instant in season and out of season.
Secondly, just because it's not a sin I struggle with doesn't mean it's not my problem. I don't struggle with alot of sins, but I still stand against them. And no doubt many of the sins I'm prone to, my friends don't struggle with. Doesn't mean we should sit back on our heels and say, "Doesn't affect me, so I don't care."
God lets all sin exist - FOR A SEASON. I hardly think that changes anything.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

Your statement is not crystal clear, there is a difference between the present and past tense. To say one ‘found’ it hard to accept means one has now accepted it, to say one finds it hard implies one is still in the process of accepting it.

So if I believe that two nonchristian adults

That wasn’t my question. Why do you always refuse to directly answer the question?

have the right to engage in a same sex relationship and call it marriage

What right? Who said it was a right? Even same sex relations alone are not a human right in many countries, and neither the EU nor the UN Declaration says or considers same sex as marriage or a right.
The principle remains, if two things are unacceptable, regardless that one is also horrific, one should be able to make the choice for others on both based on the fact they are wrong. Should one not ? Bear in mind that both are potential barriers to the Kingdom. Otherwise you are actually in effect saying you can decide whether one makes a choice for others on your criteria, but I cant on mine.

 

[xBluxTunicx82]

Marriage in scripture is reserved ONLY for man and woman, as we see in the first account in Genesis with Adam and Eve. Marriage makes us one with one another, and as the head of the Man is Christ, and the head of the woman is Man we see that in marriage, the husband and wife become one in Christ.

Children are a blessing from God, Psalm 127 tells us that a man with a 'quiver full' is blessed. We see numerous examples in scripture to couples trying for children and being unable to concieve, time and time again. Remember Sarah? She was 99 years old when she conceived Isaac, but before she could bear the progenitor of an entire chosen line of people, Abram was given Ishmael through Hagar, and he was blessed by God. So we can see that all things happen with purpose.

You have to let your mind release the modern concept of marriage that is defined by socio-politcal agenda. There is not one single reference in scripture to a ceremony of any sort, nor is there any papers being signed. Men simply took a wife and 'knew' her. But also, virgins were more commonplace as there wasn't rampant promiscuity as there is today. The values and customs of our ancestors are often ridiculed by 'the world'. What does God say about the world, we are commanded to 'come out from among her, and be ye separate.' And Christ taught us that the man that loves the world has no love for the Father in him.

Since marriage isn't defined by God as a paper or a ceremony, and it appears that sex IS the marriage act, should we be more concerned with how many adulterers there may be in this world today? If by death or adultery then divorce is allowed in Gods law, but if a man puts his wife away(in divorce) and she has done no wrong(for instance if they just 'can't get along) then the man forces her to become an adultress.

Does this mean that women that have had sex with numerous men in their lives are married to the first man and have committed sin by every other? We live in a truly perverted society today, and we must remember that God is eternal. There is nothing new under the sun, so what we see today in moral decay has happened before.

Well, i see where you're coming from, but I defer on these grounds: firstly, the majority of homosexuals are not quiet about their sin. They propagate it violently. Check out one interesting link http://www.jesus-is-...y/pederasts.htm. Now that wasn't actually the example I wanted to use, but I don't have time. It was a statement made by a prominent homosexual about what their goal was. General theme was: destroy the fabric of family. Aspen, I understand that you want to stay neutral, but when you are faced with something this aggressive, you can't let it come to you. You have to meet it face on. If we don't meet offense with counteroffense, we will lose. A saying in rugby league and bball, is, you can't win a game without the ball. We won't win if we're always on the defense. We need to be on the counteroffensive. Instant in season and out of season.
Secondly, just because it's not a sin I struggle with doesn't mean it's not my problem. I don't struggle with alot of sins, but I still stand against them. And no doubt many of the sins I'm prone to, my friends don't struggle with. Doesn't mean we should sit back on our heels and say, "Doesn't affect me, so I don't care."
God lets all sin exist - FOR A SEASON. I hardly think that changes anything.

My answer.. "Come out from among her, my people, and be ye separate."

Homos are always going to exist until Christ returns and wipes all things unclean from the face of earth. Sure they have feelings too, but that doesn't give us the right to justify away what God says about it simply because it might hurt someones feelings.

They are supposed to be put to death if they live in the land of the Israelites, (this is not Israel as we know it today, but that is another discussion). The reason for this is to keep that seedline pure and untainted, its why God decrees kind after kind, and man and woman cleaving to one another in marriage. Sodom was destroyed in its sin, just as New Orleans was, and Im certain we will see it again soon. Amos 3:6 [background=transparent](Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?) [/background]

If you trust Gods word for what it says, then we are told that everything done is from God. You walk in righteousness, and He will be a blessing, you walk in darkness, and He will be your stumbling block. God is ALL THINGS, good and evil, light and dark, love and hate, this is the perfection of all that He is. We have free will, so WE make the choices, God just gives us the opportunity to make the right one. Its time Christians start making the right ones. Enough of the falling away

 

[Strat]

Confusion is indeed a welcome refuge for the ambiguous and double minded,they seek it eagerly rather than make the choice God has given them...Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination,the bible says so and there is no legitimate debate for anyone claiming to follow God...Adultery is a sin,fornication is a sin.....there is no liegitimate debate except among the wicked and perverse found in every generation.

 

[xBluxTunicx82]

Confusion is indeed a welcome refuge for the ambiguous and double minded,they seek it eagerly rather than make the choice God has given them...Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination,the bible says so and there is no legitimate debate for anyone claiming to follow God...Adultery is a sin,fornication is a sin.....there is no liegitimate debate except among the wicked and perverse found in every generation.

Interestingly, Babylon = Confusion! Well put, as there is truly simplicity in Christ!

 

[aspen]

Confusion is indeed a welcome refuge for the ambiguous and double minded,they seek it eagerly rather than make the choice God has given them...Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination,the bible says so and there is no legitimate debate for anyone claiming to follow God...Adultery is a sin,fornication is a sin.....there is no liegitimate debate except among the wicked and perverse found in every generation.

So why don't we have a ban on fornication and adultery? The US is a country full of people who are not Christian - we are not living in the Roman Empire 2000 years ago or BC Israel. If the US was a Christian theocracy we would have the right to impose Christian law on everyone - we are not.

If I was claiming that the church should be forced to marry homosexuals, I would understand your concern (although your habit of name calling is on your own head) but I am not.

Aspen2,

Your statement is not crystal clear, there is a difference between the present and past tense. To say one ‘found’ it hard to accept means one has now accepted it, to say one finds it hard implies one is still in the process of accepting it.

I believe homosexuality is a sin. I have repeated it many times. If you choose to ignore my statement you are choosing to misrepresent what I believe, which is a sin. Proceed at your own peril.

That wasn’t my question. Why do you always refuse to directly answer the question?

Your question is asking me to compare apples to rotten oranges. Comparing sex between consenting adults to sexual abuse between a consenting adult and an underage victim is absurd. So here is my direct answer to you question "no". Does that really clear things up for you? My post wasn't obvious enough that I think your comparison is appalling and about as intellectually relevant to gay marriage as chanting "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!"

The principle remains, if two things are unacceptable, regardless that one is also horrific, one should be able to make the choice for others on both based on the fact they are wrong. Should one not ? Bear in mind that both are potential barriers to the Kingdom. Otherwise you are actually in effect saying you can decide whether one makes a choice for others on your criteria, but I cant on mine.

Direct answer: No.

Discussion: Jesus did not try to change the behavior of nonbelievers through the law. He was concerned with the hearts of the lost - only a heart change will stop a person from sinning. Imposing laws on people based on a moral code they do not follow is tyrannical. You would be agreeing with me if we were talking about Muslims trying to impose Sharia Law on American Christians. I also think you would agree with me that the government has no right to force any church to provide birth control to it's employees. The US is not a Theocracy; the government has no right to define marriage.

Marriage in scripture is reserved ONLY for man and woman, as we see in the first account in Genesis with Adam and Eve. Marriage makes us one with one another, and as the head of the Man is Christ, and the head of the woman is Man we see that in marriage, the husband and wife become one in Christ.

Children are a blessing from God, Psalm 127 tells us that a man with a 'quiver full' is blessed. We see numerous examples in scripture to couples trying for children and being unable to concieve, time and time again. Remember Sarah? She was 99 years old when she conceived Isaac, but before she could bear the progenitor of an entire chosen line of people, Abram was given Ishmael through Hagar, and he was blessed by God. So we can see that all things happen with purpose.

You have to let your mind release the modern concept of marriage that is defined by socio-politcal agenda. There is not one single reference in scripture to a ceremony of any sort, nor is there any papers being signed. Men simply took a wife and 'knew' her. But also, virgins were more commonplace as there wasn't rampant promiscuity as there is today. The values and customs of our ancestors are often ridiculed by 'the world'. What does God say about the world, we are commanded to 'come out from among her, and be ye separate.' And Christ taught us that the man that loves the world has no love for the Father in him.

Since marriage isn't defined by God as a paper or a ceremony, and it appears that sex IS the marriage act, should we be more concerned with how many adulterers there may be in this world today? If by death or adultery then divorce is allowed in Gods law, but if a man puts his wife away(in divorce) and she has done no wrong(for instance if they just 'can't get along) then the man forces her to become an adultress.

Does this mean that women that have had sex with numerous men in their lives are married to the first man and have committed sin by every other? We live in a truly perverted society today, and we must remember that God is eternal. There is nothing new under the sun, so what we see today in moral decay has happened before.




My answer.. "Come out from among her, my people, and be ye separate."

Homos are always going to exist until Christ returns and wipes all things unclean from the face of earth. Sure they have feelings too, but that doesn't give us the right to justify away what God says about it simply because it might hurt someones feelings.

They are supposed to be put to death if they live in the land of the Israelites, (this is not Israel as we know it today, but that is another discussion). The reason for this is to keep that seedline pure and untainted, its why God decrees kind after kind, and man and woman cleaving to one another in marriage. Sodom was destroyed in its sin, just as New Orleans was, and Im certain we will see it again soon. Amos 3:6 [background=transparent](Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?) [/background]

If you trust Gods word for what it says, then we are told that everything done is from God. You walk in righteousness, and He will be a blessing, you walk in darkness, and He will be your stumbling block. God is ALL THINGS, good and evil, light and dark, love and hate, this is the perfection of all that He is. We have free will, so WE make the choices, God just gives us the opportunity to make the right one. Its time Christians start making the right ones. Enough of the falling away

Where does it say Adam and Eve were married? Seems to me that the Bible described a lot of different versions of marriage - more than one wife; marriage between a King and his harem; marriage between a man and his property; marriage between a father's property and another man's property - your description of marriage has only been considered since the late middle ages and actually carry out in American during the past century. Before the 20th century, marriages were business agreements arranged by the parents of the couple.

 

[Strat]

So why don't we have a ban on fornication and adultery? The US is a country full of people who are not Christian - we are not living in the Roman Empire 2000 years ago or BC Israel. If the US was a Christian theocracy we would have the right to impose Christian law on everyone - we are not.

If I was claiming that the church should be forced to marry homosexuals, I would understand your concern (although your habit of name calling is on your own head) but I am not.





Where does it say Adam and Eve were married? Seems to me that the Bible described a lot of different versions of marriage - more than one wife; marriage between a King and his harem; marriage between a man and his property; marriage between a father's property and another man's property - your description of marriage has only been considered since the late middle ages and actually carry out in American during the past century. Before the 20th century, marriages were business agreements arranged by the parents of the couple.

Yes i understand,you want nothing to do with imposing christian values and morals by law.....just christian charity...i have no right to impose my morals on anyone but i have the obligation to pay the consequences of people who ignore those values and morals...to you christians are to be society's janitors,butlers and maids to clean up the mess so a new one can be made in the interest of a better society...i understand already.

 

[xBluxTunicx82]

To put it simply, it is because Gods elect have failed time and time again to rid its nation of those seeking to destroy His Word, his law, and His government. There is no such thing as separation of church and state in scripture, for a Christian, there is but one way. Yet the children of Israel have shown time and time again that they require a man king.

There are adulterers and fornicators in the world today because our pastors aren't feeding the sheep. They are giving feel good sermons meant only to create an illusion of 'religion' for people. So it is, instead of a reality, a way of life, we are classified as a religion. Show me in scripture where there is to be found tolerance of the ungodly? Can you provide an example where Gods chosen people didn't cleanse the land of evil and things work out in their favor?

God is very specific about how certain things are to be handled, yet we still determine what WE think is right. So much for free will, huh? Man has tried in vain to rule themselves without God for over 6000 years, now we see the beginnings of the end. Are we to judge His Word? Who on this earth is above the law?

 

[Groundzero]

So why don't we have a ban on fornication and adultery? The US is a country full of people who are not Christian - we are not living in the Roman Empire 2000 years ago or BC Israel. If the US was a Christian theocracy we would have the right to impose Christian law on everyone - we are not.


Where does it say Adam and Eve were married? Seems to me that the Bible described a lot of different versions of marriage - more than one wife; marriage between a King and his harem; marriage between a man and his property; marriage between a father's property and another man's property - your description of marriage has only been considered since the late middle ages and actually carry out in American during the past century. Before the 20th century, marriages were business agreements arranged by the parents of the couple.

I'm not propagating a ban on homosexuality. I'm propagating NO homosexual marriage. There's a big difference.

Marriage, in its honest sense, is an agreement between a man and a woman BEFORE GOD, to commit themselves to each other, whether it be arranged, through dating, or such. We've changed alot of the definitions of marriage and clouded it over with our traditions. God, however, still sees it the same way. Homosexual marriage will never be recognised by him, and if the CREATOR of marriage will NOT recognise their marriage, but opposes their very actions, I think, I, as an ambassador of his kingdom, must stand for the exact same thing.

 

[aspen]

Yes i understand,you want nothing to do with imposing christian values and morals by law.....just christian charity...i have no right to impose my morals on anyone but i have the obligation to pay the consequences of people who ignore those values and morals...to you christians are to be society's janitors,butlers and maids to clean up the mess so a new one can be made in the interest of a better society...i understand already.

Excellent!! Now get out there and love your neighbor through service! Obedience in this area shows your love for Christ! I am glad to hear that you understand what the gospel is all about. And the fig tree produces fruit, after all.......

To put it simply, it is because Gods elect have failed time and time again to rid its nation of those seeking to destroy His Word, his law, and His government. There is no such thing as separation of church and state in scripture, for a Christian, there is but one way. Yet the children of Israel have shown time and time again that they require a man king.

Yiiikess....this nation was never meant to be a theocracy! The founding Fathers were Deists and Freemasons who were tired of the tyranny of European Kings who were using religion to fight each other for political gain.

How would you propose to 'rid this nation' of evil doers? Round them up in concentration camps or forced conversion?

There are adulterers and fornicators in the world today because our pastors aren't feeding the sheep.

Actually, pastors are really not relevant to people who have chosen not to be Christian. What are you going to do with the rest of America?

They are giving feel good sermons meant only to create an illusion of 'religion' for people. So it is, instead of a reality, a way of life, we are classified as a religion. Show me in scripture where there is to be found tolerance of the ungodly? Can you provide an example where Gods chosen people didn't cleanse the land of evil and things work out in their favor?

WOW. You really want to hurt people, don't you? Unbelievable! I've heard of people like you.......does the NT tell Christians to go out and cleanse our neighbors?

God is very specific about how certain things are to be handled, yet we still determine what WE think is right. So much for free will, huh? Man has tried in vain to rule themselves without God for over 6000 years, now we see the beginnings of the end. Are we to judge His Word? Who on this earth is above the law?

Well, by all means, cast the first stone if you are without sin. The scary thing is, you probably think you are without sin and would gladly stone your neighbor in love.......we certainly do live in evil times; even Christians have reverted to the legalism of the Pharisees - except without the humility to know they are sinners like everyone else. For shame.

I'm not propagating a ban on homosexuality. I'm propagating NO homosexual marriage. There's a big difference.

Marriage, in its honest sense, is an agreement between a man and a woman BEFORE GOD, to commit themselves to each other, whether it be arranged, through dating, or such. We've changed alot of the definitions of marriage and clouded it over with our traditions. God, however, still sees it the same way. Homosexual marriage will never be recognised by him, and if the CREATOR of marriage will NOT recognise their marriage, but opposes their very actions, I think, I, as an ambassador of his kingdom, must stand for the exact same thing.

I understand what you are saying and I totally disagree with you.

Where does the Bible say that marriage is between one man and one women? I thought that was just the requirements for a deacon. How do you know which version of marriage is created by God and which is man's tradition?

Finally, where does it say in the Bible that we have the obligation to define marriage for nonbelievers?

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

Where does the Bible say that marriage is between one man and one women?

This is starting to get unaccpetable.
All through the Bible aspen2,
Try this
"His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph" Matthew 1, Joseph a man yes? Mary a woman?
and "But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son."
two men perverting each other cant produce son.
and thats just Matthew 1

Aspen2,

I believe homosexuality is a sin. I have repeated it many times. If you choose to ignore my statement you are choosing to misrepresent what I believe, which is a sin. Proceed at your own peril.

Your statement wasnt crystal clear.

Your question is asking me to compare apples to rotten oranges. Comparing sex between consenting adults to sexual abuse between a consenting adult and an underage victim is absurd.

As I said before that is not what I am asking you about I was asking you about your point, making the decision for others. Why would you make a decision for one group of people but not for others, obviously because you do not think one thing is bad enough. Thus you are making your own rules about what God has said.

The principle remains, if two things are unacceptable, regardless that one is also horrific, one should be able to make the choice for others on both based on the fact they are wrong. Should one not ? Bear in mind that both are potential barriers to the Kingdom. Otherwise you are actually in effect saying you can decide whether one makes a choice for others on your criteria, but I cant on mine.

Direct answer: No.

Wrong answer.

Discussion: Jesus did not try to change the behavior of nonbelievers through the law.

so why would you make the decision for paedophiles then?

 

[aspen]

aspen2,

This is starting to get unaccpetable.
All through the Bible aspen2,
Try this
"His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph" Matthew 1, Joseph a man yes? Mary a woman?
and "But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son."
two men perverting each other cant produce son.
and thats just Matthew 1

Yep, Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph - that is exactly what happen. Now answer my question.

 

[xBluxTunicx82]

To put it simply, it is because Gods elect have failed time and time again to rid its nation of those seeking to destroy His Word, his law, and His government[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]. There is no such thing as separation of church and state in scripture, for a Christian, there is but one way. Yet the children of Israel have shown time and time again that they require a man king. [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Yiiikess....this nation was never meant to be a theocracy! The founding Fathers were Deists and Freemasons who were tired of the tyranny of European Kings who were using religion to fight each other for political gain. [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background]


[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]How would you propose to 'rid this nation' of evil doers? Round them up in concentration camps or forced conversion?[/background]
No it wasn't was it? That is the problem, it was men making decision that they found sound, when God tells us EXACTLY how to do it. Freemasonry is Luciferian, and is strangely similar to Zionism. To rid the land? We can't do that without Gods help, this is why we are commanded to be separate. You know, make a stand for our beliefs a little more, instead of being total pushovers? Christ was no pushover, he was no pacifist that taught 'tolerance to all things'. He stood vehemently in the very face of evil, the Pharisees, and told them the simple truth. And for this, they murdered Him.


[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]There are adulterers and fornicators in the world today because our pastors aren't feeding the sheep. [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Actually, pastors are really not relevant to people who have chosen not to be Christian. What are you going to do with the rest of America?[/background]
The children of Israel are to enforce Christianity in its land. Christianity will come naturally to the people it belongs to, and the rest will easily fall out. This doesn't mean going around slaughtering innocent people either. But more careful control of the borders allowing pagan practices into the land would surely be useful.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]They are giving feel good sermons meant only to create an illusion of 'religion' for people. So it is, instead of a reality, a way of life, we are classified as a religion. Show me in scripture where there is to be found tolerance of the ungodly? Can you provide an example where Gods chosen people didn't cleanse the land of evil and things work out in their favor?[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]WOW. You really want to hurt people, don't you? Unbelievable! I've heard of people like you.......does the NT tell Christians to go out and cleanse our neighbors?[/background]


[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]The NT teaches us to obey Gods commandments, and that to love your kinsman, your people, is the highest love. Its okay for the black community to proclaim their hatred of whites and our culture on CNN, national syndicated radio, and on the internet, right? Even though it is fueled by sheer hate, it is allowed, and for what? If the white community makes a stand, we are instantly branded as racist, even if it were our children getting burned alive in front of our homes, as has happened! Love your brother as yourself. If we are to come out from the world and be separate, then we cannot include ourselves in the mix with heathen practices, pagan ideology, and the perversions of sodomy seen on a regular basis. We keep separate, or at least we should.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]God is very specific about how certain things are to be handled, yet we still determine what WE think is right. So much for free will, huh? Man has tried in vain to rule themselves without God for over 6000 years, now we see the beginnings of the end. Are we to judge His Word? Who on this earth is above the law?[/background]

I am most certainly not without sin! You are merely pointing out the feelings of the world by opening your 'mouth'. This Phariseeism you speak of IS alive and well in todays society. Its up to you to find it though. This is the very message found throughout scripture, so step back and look at it from an unbiased point of view.
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Well, by all means, cast the first stone if you are without sin. The scary thing is, you probably think you are without sin and would gladly stone your neighbor in love.......we certainly do live in evil times; even Christians have reverted to the legalism of the Pharisees - except without the humility to know they are sinners like everyone else. For shame. [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background]

 

[Groundzero]

I understand what you are saying and I totally disagree with you.

Where does the Bible say that marriage is between one man and one women? I thought that was just the requirements for a deacon. How do you know which version of marriage is created by God and which is man's tradition?

Finally, where does it say in the Bible that we have the obligation to define marriage for nonbelievers?

Ok, aspen, define 'marriage' for me, ACCORDING to Scripture. Let me give you the most ancient definition of marriage: Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Tell me, WHO created the institution of marriage? Did man create it? or did God create it? I'll give you some examples of man's tradition: marriage must be organised by the parents, brides can be bought, harems, etc. God's original purpose was for A man and A woman to cleave together and become 'one' flesh.
I'm not saying I have an obligation to define marriage for unbelievers. I am saying I have an obligation to stand up for what MY king stands for. And quickly, I understand that you are NOT opposed to homosexual marriage? Am I correct? Just wanted to verify.

 

[aspen]

To put it simply, it is because Gods elect have failed time and time again to rid its nation of those seeking to destroy His Word, his law, and His government[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]. There is no such thing as separation of church and state in scripture, for a Christian, there is but one way. Yet the children of Israel have shown time and time again that they require a man king. [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Yiiikess....this nation was never meant to be a theocracy! The founding Fathers were Deists and Freemasons who were tired of the tyranny of European Kings who were using religion to fight each other for political gain. [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background]


[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]How would you propose to 'rid this nation' of evil doers? Round them up in concentration camps or forced conversion?[/background]
No it wasn't was it? That is the problem, it was men making decision that they found sound, when God tells us EXACTLY how to do it. Freemasonry is Luciferian, and is strangely similar to Zionism. To rid the land? We can't do that without Gods help, this is why we are commanded to be separate. You know, make a stand for our beliefs a little more, instead of being total pushovers? Christ was no pushover, he was no pacifist that taught 'tolerance to all things'. He stood vehemently in the very face of evil, the Pharisees, and told them the simple truth. And for this, they murdered Him.


[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]There are adulterers and fornicators in the world today because our pastors aren't feeding the sheep. [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Actually, pastors are really not relevant to people who have chosen not to be Christian. What are you going to do with the rest of America?[/background]
The children of Israel are to enforce Christianity in its land. Christianity will come naturally to the people it belongs to, and the rest will easily fall out. This doesn't mean going around slaughtering innocent people either. But more careful control of the borders allowing pagan practices into the land would surely be useful.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]They are giving feel good sermons meant only to create an illusion of 'religion' for people. So it is, instead of a reality, a way of life, we are classified as a religion. Show me in scripture where there is to be found tolerance of the ungodly? Can you provide an example where Gods chosen people didn't cleanse the land of evil and things work out in their favor?[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]WOW. You really want to hurt people, don't you? Unbelievable! I've heard of people like you.......does the NT tell Christians to go out and cleanse our neighbors?[/background]


[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]The NT teaches us to obey Gods commandments, and that to love your kinsman, your people, is the highest love. Its okay for the black community to proclaim their hatred of whites and our culture on CNN, national syndicated radio, and on the internet, right? Even though it is fueled by sheer hate, it is allowed, and for what? If the white community makes a stand, we are instantly branded as racist, even if it were our children getting burned alive in front of our homes, as has happened! Love your brother as yourself. If we are to come out from the world and be separate, then we cannot include ourselves in the mix with heathen practices, pagan ideology, and the perversions of sodomy seen on a regular basis. We keep separate, or at least we should.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]God is very specific about how certain things are to be handled, yet we still determine what WE think is right. So much for free will, huh? Man has tried in vain to rule themselves without God for over 6000 years, now we see the beginnings of the end. Are we to judge His Word? Who on this earth is above the law?[/background]

I am most certainly not without sin! You are merely pointing out the feelings of the world by opening your 'mouth'. This Phariseeism you speak of IS alive and well in todays society. Its up to you to find it though. This is the very message found throughout scripture, so step back and look at it from an unbiased point of view.
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Well, by all means, cast the first stone if you are without sin. The scary thing is, you probably think you are without sin and would gladly stone your neighbor in love.......we certainly do live in evil times; even Christians have reverted to the legalism of the Pharisees - except without the humility to know they are sinners like everyone else. For shame. [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background]

White Separatism and Christianity are incompatible. I believe that no white. black, latino, middle eastern,or asian hatred is acceptable - whether it is towards or against - no matter how much I am threatened with violence or fed scriptures out of context. I am also an American - I pay taxes - I obey the laws of the land - I live in the world, but I am not of the world.

good day.

Ok, aspen, define 'marriage' for me, ACCORDING to Scripture. Let me give you the most ancient definition of marriage: Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Tell me, WHO created the institution of marriage? Did man create it? or did God create it? I'll give you some examples of man's tradition: marriage must be organised by the parents, brides can be bought, harems, etc. God's original purpose was for A man and A woman to cleave together and become 'one' flesh.
I'm not saying I have an obligation to define marriage for unbelievers. I am saying I have an obligation to stand up for what MY king stands for. And quickly, I understand that you are NOT opposed to homosexual marriage? Am I correct? Just wanted to verify.

Marriage is not defined in scripture. I think Gen 2:24 comes close, but it is descriptive, not authoritative.

I am not opposed to homosexual marriage for nonbelievers. Within the church, I am opposed, because it appears to offend God for believers to practice homosexuality.

I am just tired of conservative christian circles trying to own marriage. If you do not believe God likes gay marriage and you want it outlawed for everyone just admit it! Stop drumming up stupid headliners like 'homosexual marriage is an attack on marriage' or 'gay marriage is impossible'. All marriage between consenting adults is possible for nonbelievers and many variations of marriage have even been practiced by believers.

I happen to believe that marriage between one man and one women is the best way to please God, but scripture does not seem to back up my claims. I also recognize the right (based on the fact that God allows it) for people to live outside the Christian understanding of God's law.

 

[Groundzero]

Marriage is not defined in scripture. I think Gen 2:24 comes close, but it is descriptive, not authoritative.

I am not opposed to homosexual marriage for nonbelievers. Within the church, I am opposed, because it appears to offend God for believers to practice homosexuality.

I am just tired of conservative christian circles trying to own marriage. If you do not believe God likes gay marriage and you want it outlawed for everyone just admit it! Stop drumming up stupid headliners like 'homosexual marriage is an attack on marriage' or 'gay marriage is impossible'. All marriage between consenting adults is possible for nonbelievers and many variations of marriage have even been practiced by believers.

I happen to believe that marriage between one man and one women is the best way to please God, but scripture does not seem to back up my claims. I also recognize the right (based on the fact that God allows it) for people to live outside the Christian understanding of God's law.

Well, who created marriage then?

EDIT: I certainly don't think man did it, cause right now, the 'in' thing is to sleep round casually, and if you get married, forget about the vows of 'I do' because we have lawyers who can tear those contracts up anyway. Marriage is just a way of saying you're more committed than someone who is sleeping round! Give it a few more years, marriage will be nothing at all!