Why belief in a god is an unfalsifiable claim that serves no purpose

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Romanov2488

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One of the worst arguments for God is that whenever something isn’t understood or doesn’t make sense, believers will say, “God works in mysterious ways. Unless you have the mind of God, you cannot understand since you’re a limited human.” By that same token, saying things such as God is good or loving is also inaccurate because according to believers, we are limited humans. It’s a convenient copout because it involves an unfalsifiable claim i.e. ad hoc reasoning. It’s like saying there’s a dragon in my garage even though you can’t see it. I can’t prove it, but you can’t disprove it either.

The word “god” can literally be replaced with any other word or entity such as a winged rabbit and believers would respond the same way an atheist would. However, that same reasoning is absent when referring to God specifically. A winged rabbit and God are both “things” that can’t be proven. Why would a believer feel otherwise about God? My guess is because to the believer, their God is superior to any other concept that’s similar in nature such as a winged rabbit. Believers and atheists are similar in that they both would not believe in the winged rabbit, but they are different because an atheist would also not believe in a god. The same logic believers apply to the existence of a winged rabbit seems to escape them when it comes to their god. And it is perfectly fine for a believer to admit that they would not believe in a winged rabbit but that they would believe in a god instead. What’s not fine is claiming that their belief is founded in sound logic and reason, which further obfuscates the difference between what’s rational and irrational.

So what is the point of claim which cannot be falsified? There’s none. It’s completely open ended because it can’t be proven nor disproven. This is why science and religion are actually diametrically opposed. God can’t be put under a microscope or test tube. The idea of a god is useless in science given the scientific method. It is also fallacious to infer that God exists by observing “his creation”. What could the creation ever know about the creator given that creation is limited? It’s a contradiction that just doesn’t get admitted to.
 
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Triumph1300

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TheOneHeLoves

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My question is how can you explain the universe coming into existence without a creator? How does science work? If you don't believe in a creator then you believe all this happened by chance?? That takes more faith to believe that nothing created everything than to know that One ultimate being created a perfectly crafted universe and all the details of each individual creation. How the body works, life is created, how the plants spin and rotate around a sun, how animals have the instinct that they have, how gravity is just right to hold us down and not crush us, I could go on and on but you have a choice to believe until He comes again and then we will all know.

I don't just believe God is real, I know and I see Him and feel Him. How great God is and when you experience His love, nothing can change that. So I hope that you will come to know Him.
 

dhh712

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I used to believe basically what you do until I met Jesus.

If you get a chance to read the Westminster Confessions of faith, you'll see that belief in God is logical.
 
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Wrangler

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So what is the point of claim which cannot be falsified?

Sadly, the thesis of your OP is not well constructed. I suspect the lack of clarity is deliberate to help blur the false conclusion you are striving to reach and support.

This is why science and religion are actually diametrically opposed. God can’t be put under a microscope or test tube. The idea of a god is useless in science given the scientific method.

Interestingly, from today's devotional reading @ 1 Thes 5:21, we find the God given command, Test everything. Read The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West 2nd Edition by Toby E. Huff. In short, the author explains why science flourished in the Christian West but not other parts of the God forsaken world. It flourished because of such Christian principles as gleaned from today's devotional reading.

God is indispensable in science and God gave us the scientific method (or at least the command, which lead to its development).

It is also fallacious to infer that God exists by observing “his creation”.

Hmmm. To prove you wrong, I offer the sum of all matter, energy and knowledge. The entirety of the universe. You deny all that exists is a valid arena to investigate, which begs the question of your rejection criteria. What evidence will you accept for God's existence? Evidence To Be Seen

What could the creation ever know about the creator given that creation is limited? It’s a contradiction that just doesn’t get admitted to.
Everything that exists is limited. Even God will run out of patience for those who deny him and his design.

You must be obtuse to not see the symmetry in the pattern of a solar system matches atoms or the blossoming of a rose matches the spiral of galaxies. God wrote life in 4D code using molecules as his instrument of recording. We humans are only capable of writing in 2D. Educate yourself. Start by reading the Bible and praying.
 

Romanov2488

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Wrong.
Check the website "Reasons to Believe" by Hugh Ross
Can be found on the internet. Today's New Reason to Believe Archives
(I am not going to copy and paste from that site, check it yourself)
Btw, I assume you mean Christianity in your quote.
I have just looked through his reasons and they are logically flawed. There’s a lot of “god of the gaps” involved as the basis of his reasoning which are all arguments from ignorance.

Also, reasons to believe, is not the same as evidence to believe.
 

atpollard

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So what is the point of claim which cannot be falsified?
I am not as smart as some. I cannot "prove" gravity exists (I can only affirm its effects). I would not even know how to BEGIN to prove that my mass and the mass of the Earth exert an invisible force of attraction on one another if I HAD to prove it.

Yet I have no doubt in the reality of "gravity" because the evidence of its effect are too irrefutable (anyone that ever fell off the top bunk or out of a tree will affirm the reality of the effect). I also cannot "quantify" God, but I have no doubt of His reality because of the irrefutable evidence of the EFFECT that God has. The effects of faith are even quantifiable (the correlation between attitude and healing is documented). Of course, I need no Harvard Medical Study to prove to me that God exists any more than I need a science experiment to prove that Gravity exists. The TREE convinced me of Gravity and LIFE has convinced me of God ... independent of any need for repeatable independent experimental verification.

Personally, it is none of my business if you want to deny the existence of either gravity or God. Based on my experience, neither GRAVITY nor GOD will be dissuaded by your unbelief. So good luck with that plan.
 
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Romanov2488

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Sadly, the thesis of your OP is not well constructed. I suspect the lack of clarity is deliberate to help blur the false conclusion you are striving to reach and support.



Interestingly, from today's devotional reading @ 1 Thes 5:21, we find the God given command, Test everything. Read The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West 2nd Edition by Toby E. Huff. In short, the author explains why science flourished in the Christian West but not other parts of the God forsaken world. It flourished because of such Christian principles as gleaned from today's devotional reading.

God is indispensable in science and God gave us the scientific method (or at least the command, which lead to its development).



Hmmm. To prove you wrong, I offer the sum of all matter, energy and knowledge. The entirety of the universe. You deny all that exists is a valid arena to investigate, which begs the question of your rejection criteria. What evidence will you accept for God's existence? Evidence To Be Seen


Everything that exists is limited. Even God will run out of patience for those who deny him and his design.

You must be obtuse to not see the symmetry in the pattern of a solar system matches atoms or the blossoming of a rose matches the spiral of galaxies. God wrote life in 4D code using molecules as his instrument of recording. We humans are only capable of writing in 2D. Educate yourself. Start by reading the Bible and praying.

“The symmetry in the pattern of the solar system” as a basis for God’s existence is an argument from ignorance which leads to “god of the gaps”. There are also many chaotic events without any rhyme or reason which completely blows the “intelligent design” argument apart.

God himself cannot be tested in the same way a substance can under a microscope. Faith is the exact opposite of evidence.

If by the “Christian West”, you’re referring to colonialism involving the exploitation of people, then sure. But Christianity itself is not the sole driving force behind science. There are religious scientists and there are also atheistic scientists. A lot can also be said about how the church persecuted people making scientific claims such as Galileo.
 

atpollard

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If by the “Christian West”, you’re referring to colonialism involving the exploitation of people, then sure. But Christianity itself is not the sole driving force behind science. There are religious scientists and there are also atheistic scientists. A lot can also be said about how the church persecuted people making scientific claims such as Galileo.
You actually ignored his point rather than refuted it.

Why DID the Scientific Revolution begin in CHRISTIAN Europe rather than Buddhist or Confucist or Hindu Asia (which had a MUCH larger population and, by Darwinism, a greater opportunity for producing exceptional 'Scientific Thinkers')?
 

Romanov2488

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I used to believe basically what you do until I met Jesus.

If you get a chance to read the Westminster Confessions of faith, you'll see that belief in God is logical.
I don’t believe though. I don’t believe that there is no God because I can’t prove it anymore than you can.

I am simply lacking of belief.

Belief in God is never logical, it’s really the opposite: it’s irrational. The evidence is simply not there. At best you can say that belief in God is understandable given certain circumstances such as upbringing and man-kind’s ignorance.
 

Romanov2488

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You actually ignored his point rather than refuted it.

Why DID the Scientific Revolution begin in CHRISTIAN Europe rather than Buddhist or Confucist or Hindu Asia (which had a MUCH larger population and, by Darwinism, a greater opportunity for producing exceptional 'Scientific Thinkers')?
Due to the freedom to pursue other ideas which would go against the Church. Don’t forget that the Age of Enlightenment also began in Europe because people got tired of religious conflict. It should be noted that the Christian church at times has opposed and sought to prevent scientific developments that threatened religious dogma, particularly Christian literalist views of creation and the earth being the center of the universe (based on literal interpretations of the Bible). Some Christian sects today and beliefs among the more literalist views serve as retrograde forces with respect to science
 

atpollard

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Due to the freedom to pursue other ideas which would go against the Church. Don’t forget that the Age of Enlightenment also began in Europe because people got tired of religious conflict.
... and this freedom existed nowhere in more populous Asia at this or any earlier time?
 
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Wrangler

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“The symmetry in the pattern of the solar system” as a basis for God’s existence is an argument from ignorance which leads to “god of the gaps”.

You are obtuse, blocking even the on ramp to consider evidence. Worse, you did not answer the question of your rejection criteria. What evidence will you accept for God's existence?

God himself cannot be tested in the same way a substance can under a microscope.

As @atpollard pointed out, it is the same with gravity. Yet, you aren't denying gravity, are you?

Faith is the exact opposite of evidence.

No sir. Atheism is the exact opposite of evidence. Faith is lived experience.

And that is your basic problem on this website. Atheists have an argument. Christians have lived experience. It's like you telling us that the coelacanth fish went extinct with the dinosaurs 66 may but we all came back from a fishing trip were we caught it. Don't think for a second your argument is going to prevail over the evidence of our own eyes and experience.

If by the “Christian West”, you’re referring to colonialism involving the exploitation of people, then sure. But Christianity itself is not the sole driving force behind science. There are religious scientists and there are also atheistic scientists. A lot can also be said about how the church persecuted people making scientific claims such as Galileo.
I see. You only credit the Christian West with bad.

This shows you are not evidence based but morally judgmental AGAINST God's Children.

Enjoy your hate filled life.
 

Wrangler

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It should be noted that the Christian church at times has opposed and sought to prevent scientific developments
Again, so much for your evidence based approach to life.

Do you condemn a cure because - at times - people do not recover from the disease? Or do you let the exception be the exception and the 99.9% of the time be the rule? It should be noted that before the modern era, the Christian church was the strongest advocate of education in human history. That's what should be noted.
 

Romanov2488

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You are obtuse, blocking even the on ramp to consider evidence. Worse, you did not answer the question of your rejection criteria. What evidence will you accept for God's existence?



As @atpollard pointed out, it is the same with gravity. Yet, you aren't denying gravity, are you?



No sir. Atheism is the exact opposite of evidence. Faith is lived experience.

And that is your basic problem on this website. Atheists have an argument. Christians have lived experience. It's like you telling us that the coelacanth fish went extinct with the dinosaurs 66 may but we all came back from a fishing trip were we caught it. Don't think for a second your argument is going to prevail over the evidence of our own eyes and experience.


I see. You only credit the Christian West with bad.

This shows you are not evidence based but morally judgmental AGAINST God's Children.

Enjoy your hate filled life.
Evidence that I will accept for God’s existence is obviously the existence of God as any other object.

Atheism actually values evidence, that’s all an atheist asks for. Lived experiences are very individual and private. You can have a mystical experience due to drugs, hallucinations, hypnosis, mental illness. The experiential argument is flawed because of that.

And morally judgemental against “God’s children”? Well, I think anyone or any crowd going around beating their chests with pride over how they are “God’s children” whilst looking down out of pity on nonbelievers is more a matter of holding those accountable. Tell me you’re against accountability without telling me you’re against accountability? I provided an actual example such as colonialism which was a very real thing that took place and you completely chose to deflect from it with projecting onto me that I am filled with hate. Religion is exclusive, not inclusive. It’s always those who are against inclusiveness that end up playing the victim card when they are called out on their bigotry.
 

Romanov2488

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Again, so much for your evidence based approach to life.

Do you condemn a cure because - at times - people do not recover from the disease? Or do you let the exception be the exception and the 99.9% of the time be the rule? It should be noted that before the modern era, the Christian church was the strongest advocate of education in human history. That's what should be noted.
Education should not be confused with indoctrination. The Catholic Church was the strongest advocate of their version of education.
 

Wrangler

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Evidence that I will accept for God’s existence is obviously the existence of God as any other object ...
is an argument from ignorance which leads to “god of the gaps”.
Your own standard defies your acceptance criteria. Said differently, your acceptance criteria has either already been met or you are not accepting the proper application of your own acceptance criteria.

Atheism actually values evidence, that’s all an atheist asks for. Lived experiences are very individual and private.
Those most enslaved are those who falsely believe they are free. This Goethe quote applies to you! This is a public forum. Billions of Christians have been publicly talking about the evidence of their lived experience for millennia. You are drowning in evidence.
 
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Romanov2488

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... and this freedom existed nowhere in more populous Asia at this or any earlier time?
There is a flaw in your initial premise. Europe was not more technologically advanced than the rest of the world. It had military technological advancements that the Mesoamericas did not have. However, they were more advanced than Europeans in many areas such as astronomy, math, and agriculture specifically irrigation.

Technology doesn't move like a tech tree in video games. A civilization leader doesn't say, "wouldn't it be great if we had bronze?". It moves more haphazardly. Cultures & nations will excel in some areas but not in others. Sometimes it is due to culture but more often than not it is due to other factors such as geography, environment, available resources, or even population size. A lot of technological advancements are due to a long trial and error process involving a lot of chance and luck.

However, when compared to the Africans and the Mesoamericans, the Europeans had superior military technologies. Why? The likeliest reason for this is that the peoples of these continents were more isolated from one another than the Europeans. By the late fifteenth century how many wars had been fought between the between the Inca and the Aztecs? Compare that to the number of wars fought between the French and the English? Or between Catholic European powers and Islamic powers? The close proximity of all of these kingdoms lead to a lot of warfare, which led to more improvements in military technology. The Chinese invented gunpowder as an example. For a long time, it was China was at the center of civilization.

The belief that the Christian West was simply ahead of everyone else and more sophisticated is nothing but a belief rooted in colonialism and imperialism.
 

Wrangler

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Religion is exclusive, not inclusive.
That's right. Christianity is an exclusive religion.

called out on their bigotry.
You have your moral poles reversed. It is hate that wants to equate the path of destruction with the path of life.

It's your choice and your consequence. We don't hate your for your choice. We pity you.

Education should not be confused with indoctrination.
Agreed and besides the point.

The Catholic Church was the strongest advocate of their version of education.
LOL. The version of education that led the world in every measurable way - in business, scientific, technical advancement, invention and discovery.
  • Do you know who went to the moon? Christians.
  • Do you know who put men on the moon? Christians.
  • Do you know who invented the machines, methods and techniques to put men on the moon? Christians.
  • Do you know who financed the project to put men on the moon? Christians.
Honestly, the deck is so fully stacked against your indoctrinated, fact-free, evidece-free, hate-filled, world view it makes this exchange laughable.
 

Romanov2488

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Your own standard defies your acceptance criteria. Said differently, your acceptance criteria has either already been met or you are not accepting the proper application of your own acceptance criteria.


Those most enslaved are those who falsely believe they are free. This Goethe quote applies to you! This is a public forum. Billions of Christians have been publicly talking about the evidence of their lived experience for millennia. You are drowning in evidence.
There’s also billions of Muslims who have publicly talking about the evidence of their lived experience. Saying what you’ve experienced is evidence is like me saying that my desert mirage is evidence-it’s not.
 
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