Why can these Bible teachings and commands be ignored while others can not?

[Wormwood]

Aaron,

If you would like to dialogue with me, I would be happy to engage in such a discussion on whatever text or word you would like. I will not, however, spend all day responding to 20 pages of copied and pasted material on dozens of different texts and topics. Lets take one text or concept at a time. If you want to share with my why you feel a particular verse is misunderstood or misrepresented, I would be happy to listen and explore the idea with you.

As well, this is not just 'me' who believes this, but many different entire Christian denominations, consisting of thousands of congregations, and millions of Christians, who agree with what I share with you.

There are also thousands and millions and many denominations that disagree. Millions of people in Germany approved of Hitler's actions, too. Again, let's look at the texts and ideas individually and discuss their merit. Polling is not a valid way to determine truth or where God's approval is to be found.

 

[tommie]

Aaron, Do know that Christians should always love and resect anyone, even and maybe especially, if they don't agree with ones position. God IS love.

The Holy Spirit is the one who will convince someone of the truth of the bible. I will pray that, with the Holy Spirits help, you will accept the truth that homosexuality is a sin and that you will turn to Jesus in obedience for your salvation, if you haven't already. I will pray that you will know that He is the only way and there is no other.

This life on earth is a breath compared to eternity. This life here on earth is to not look to our own desires but to Jesus's desires even it we don't like it. God Bless you, Aaron!!!

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Hi tommie, thank you so much and I love your soul as well. However, my denomination and church discovered upon studying the original Hebrew and Greek words many years ago, that the way God created gay people, and their God-created natural love and affection for their same kind are not a sin in the Bible.. only homosexual acts that are pagan, abusive, or wanton.. the same as heterosexual acts of the same manner are. Monogamous committed homosexual unions are not a sin and are blessed by God, for the unique way He created them. I agree that the love that is Jesus is the way. I also realize this is an issue that each Christian and each congregation have to deal with according to their own conscience, and so require nor expect anyone to 'have' to agree with me on this. Some churches, especially historically, allow no freedom of opinion or thought, and thus unfortunately attempt to force people to agree with whatever the head of their church wants to force them to believe. Even if we have to agree to disagree on this subject, I wish the blessings of Christ upon you and a happy New Year!

 

[tommie]

You too, Aaron!!!!!

 

[Wormwood]

Some churches, especially historically, allow no freedom of opinion or thought, and thus unfortunately attempt to force people to agree with whatever the head of their church wants to force them to believe.

Aaron, with all due respect, I believe that most church leaders genuinely want to do what they believe is taught by the Scriptures. Just because people are convinced that homosexuality is wrong based on what appears to be very clearly language in both the Greek and Hebrew, as has been taught for 2,000 years of church history, does not mean they are "forcing" people to agree...any more than your pastor is "forcing" you to believe that homosexual acts are approved by God. I think it is unfair to paint those who disagree with you as forcing their views which are based on "the head of their church" just as it would be unfair of me to paint you as forcing an agenda which is being driven by "the head of your church." Again, if you want to look at specifics to try to understand the Bible's teaching, I am more than willing to engage in that discussion. I understand if you do not.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Aaron, with all due respect, I believe that most church leaders genuinely want to do what they believe is taught by the Scriptures. Just because people are convinced that homosexuality is wrong based on what appears to be very clearly language in both the Greek and Hebrew, as has been taught for 2,000 years of church history, does not mean they are "forcing" people to agree...any more than your pastor is "forcing" you to believe that homosexual acts are approved by God. I think it is unfair to paint those who disagree with you as forcing their views which are based on "the head of their church" just as it would be unfair of me to paint you as forcing an agenda which is being driven by "the head of your church." Again, if you want to look at specifics to try to understand the Bible's teaching, I am more than willing to engage in that discussion. I understand if you do not.

Hi Wormwood, thank you for understanding. I wish Christ's blessings upon you and a Happy New Year as well.

 

[Dan57]

I list this shameful history, so that we as Christians, never again indulge in such evil and murderous persecution of gay people again, merely over how God created them, and who they love.

Just so that people do not think it is only 'me' who believes this to be the truth, it is not just myself. These are the many entire denominations consisting of thousands of churches, and millions of Christians, who agree with what I share with you concerning this subject.

I think most Christians would agree with the above. Christians aren't suppose to judge others in a condeming fashion, but the fact is, everyone judges. Everytime we make a decision between right and wrong, we're making a judgement.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

I think most Christians would agree with the above. Christians aren't suppose to judge others in a condeming fashion, but the fact is, everyone judges. Everytime we make a decision between right and wrong, we're making a judgement.

Hi Dan, I think that was extremely well-spoken! Happy New Year (a little early) and God bless you!!

 

[michaelvpardo]

There is One who justifies and there is One who condemns. We have His word and reinterpreting it according to our own bent is not an option.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

There is One who justifies and there is One who condemns. We have His word and reinterpreting it according to our own bent is not an option.

Hi Michael, I agree. However, just to be clear, there is no reinterpreting the Gospel according to my congregation and denomination's own bent, but rather, translating the original Hebrew and Greek Scripture ‘honestly’ and ‘accurately’ into English.

The process of researching the Hebrew and Greek, as well as the history of the church and world in regard to sexuality, began for my denomination in 1980, and continues to this day. When translating from Hebrew and Greek to English, we tend to bypass religious resources, which have been known to alter meanings for doctrinal reasons (not just on this topic). We prefer to rely primarily on secular language sources, whose only "agenda" is proper understanding of the language.

For security reasons the translating staff that my denomination depends upon is not identified by name or current location. However, it has been requested before that the qualifications of their lead translator be listed. This individual, Rev. W.H.C., began independent study of koine Greek in 1968, guided by native Greek instructors. Rev. C. began studying the Hebrew language, beginning with modern Hebrew, and then moving to biblical, in 1979, under the tutelage of Israeli instructor B.K. He later taught classes in both languages in a Christian Bible college for a number of years. Further studies in theology, church administration, etc., took place at two NY Bible schools, and studies in research writing and the humanities at the State University of New York. He was the author of the ministerial training curriculum used by two Christian denominations. Rev. C. is an ordained minister, former pastor, and is currently Dean of a Bible school, where he continues to teach. He has authored books on theology, and has done translation work from Hebrew, Greek and Russian. His work has been published in English, Hebrew, Russian, French and Spanish.

For too many years, people whose sexual orientation was other than heterosexual have been marginalized in the churches, made to feel dirty, useless, etc. Sometimes they are subjected to what can only be viewed as spiritual and emotional torture. And when they ultimately cannot change who they are, they are often driven away, and wind up abandoning God, falsely believing that He rejected them.

Others have been deluded into thinking that they can become what they are not, and some have maintained this illusion for years, only to be devastated when it ultimately fails. Such self-delusion usually results in depression, self-loathing, loss of faith in God, and even suicide.

They are not "liberal" theologians. We do not dismiss scripture as irrelevant to this day and age. We believe the Bible, in its original form, was the inerrant word of God. We endeavor to move beyond the mistranslations that exist in English translations of that word, using the most ancient extant Hebrew and Greek texts available.

For those who are interested, the following site is an amazing resource on the oldest New Testament manuscripts available to study. The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (CSNTM) is continuing to grow its online resources. They now have images of 128 papyri manuscripts in their archives, 111 digital papyri manuscripts online, and 80 of these available publicly (the remaining are available for private viewing only due to contractual arrangements). This includes the new high resolution images of the Chester Beatty Papyri. The New Testament papyri at the CBL include the oldest manuscript of Paul’s letters (dated c. AD 200), the oldest manuscript of Mark’s Gospel and portions of the other Gospels and Acts (third century), and the oldest manuscript of Revelation (third century). One or two of the Old Testament papyri are as old as the second century AD. http://www.csntm.org/

 

[Wormwood]

Aaron,

I appreciate your stance on the Bible as being the Word of God and inerrant. However, to suggest that every Koine Greek scholar is not "honest" or has some kind of evil agenda against homosexuals in their teaching and rendering of Greek words is beyond troubling. Again, it seems you have a tendency to demonize those who disagree with you as being untruthful with a grand plot to oppress a sexual orientation. You would not like it if people on this board make the same accusations against those with whom you agree and support. Koine is a dead language. There are not two separate schools of thought on how to understand or interpret the language. I assure you that there has been no conspiracy to redefine words in order to change the meaning of the Bible. Of course, scholars will come across new documents that will sometimes help us understand how various terms and words were used in the first century. Sometimes this can broaden our understanding of word range. Perhaps, some of the scholars you note feel like they have come across something like this. However, to say that words have been intentionally changed by "religious resources" in order to spiritually and emotionally "torture" a group of people is a terrible accusation that is untrue.

I will honor your desire to not discuss the language with you. However, I ask that you be fair to the hundreds of thousands of scholars who have devoted much of their lives to studying and understanding the Koine Greek language who disagree with how Rev. W.H.C. has come to understand things.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Aaron,

I appreciate your stance on the Bible as being the Word of God and inerrant. However, to suggest that every Koine Greek scholar is not "honest" or has some kind of evil agenda against homosexuals in their teaching and rendering of Greek words is beyond troubling. Again, it seems you have a tendency to demonize those who disagree with you as being untruthful with a grand plot to oppress a sexual orientation. You would not like it if people on this board make the same accusations against those with whom you agree and support. Koine is a dead language. There are not two separate schools of thought on how to understand or interpret the language. I assure you that there has been no conspiracy to redefine words in order to change the meaning of the Bible. Of course, scholars will come across new documents that will sometimes help us understand how various terms and words were used in the first century. Sometimes this can broaden our understanding of word range. Perhaps, some of the scholars you note feel like they have come across something like this. However, to say that words have been intentionally changed by "religious resources" in order to spiritually and emotionally "torture" a group of people is a terrible accusation that is untrue.

I will honor your desire to not discuss the language with you. However, I ask that you be fair to the hundreds of thousands of scholars who have devoted much of their lives to studying and understanding the Koine Greek language who disagree with how Rev. W.H.C. has come to understand things.

Thank you wormwood. However, I most definitely am not demonizing anyone, because as I've stated clearly before, no one is required to agree with me, or with the many entire denominations and millions of fellow Christians who believe as I do on this subject. We can respectfully agree to disagree. It's not merely Rev. W.H.C. who teaches this, but hundreds of translators and scholars who are in complete agreement with him, which is why so many entire denominations have changed their mind on this. In addition, no where did I state or imply that Christians were using Scripture 'in order to' do something bad... it said: 'Sometimes' they (gay people) are subjected to what can only be viewed as spiritual and emotional torture. And when they ultimately cannot change who they are, they are often driven away, and wind up abandoning God, falsely believing that He rejected them.

That said, here is a story to reflect upon by a Christian mother who wishes she knew then, what she knows now, regarding this subject:

On the night of November 20, 2001, a conversation held over Instant Messenger changed our lives forever. Our twelve year old son messaged me in my office from the computer in his bedroom.

Ryan says: can i tell u something

Mom says: Yes I am listening

Ryan says: well i don’t know how to say this really but, well……, i can’t keep lying to you about myself. I have been hiding this for too long and i sorta have to tell u now. By now u probably have an idea of what i am about to say.

Ryan says: I am gay

Ryan says: i can’t believe i just told you

Mom says: Are you joking?

Ryan says: no

Ryan says: i thought you would understand because of uncle don

Mom says: of course I would

Mom says: but what makes you think you are?

Ryan says: i know i am

Ryan says: i don’t like hannah

Ryan says: it’s just a cover-up

Mom says: but that doesn’t make you gay…

Ryan says: i know

Ryan says: but u don’t understand

Ryan says: i am gay

Mom says: tell me more

Ryan says: it’s just the way i am and it’s something i know

Ryan says: u r not a lesbian and u know that. it is the same thing

Mom says: what do you mean?

Ryan says: i am just gay

Ryan says: i am that

Mom says: I love you no matter what

Ryan says: i am white not black

Ryan says: i know

Ryan says: i am a boy not a girl

Ryan says: i am attracted to boys not girls

Ryan says: u know that about yourself and i know this

Mom says: what about what God thinks about acting on these desires?

Ryan says: i know

Mom says: thank you for telling me

Ryan says: and i am very confused about that right now

Mom says: I love you more for being honest

Ryan says: i know

Ryan says: thanx

We were completely shocked. Not that we didn’t know and love gay people – my only brother had come out to us several years before, and we adored him. But Ryan? He was unafraid of anything, tough as nails, and ALL boy. We had not seen this coming, and the emotion that overwhelmed us, kept us awake at night and, sadly, influenced all of our reactions over the next six years, was FEAR.

We said all the things that we thought loving Christian parents who believed the Bible – the Word of God – should say:

We love you. We will ALWAYS love you. And this is hard. REALLY hard. But we know what God says about this, and so you are going to have to make some really difficult choices.

We love you. We couldn’t love you more. But there are other men who have faced this same struggle, and God has worked in them to change their desires. We’ll get you their books…you can listen to their testimonies. And we will trust God with this.

We love you. We are so glad you are our son. But you are young, and your sexual orientation is still developing. The feelings you’ve had for other guys don’t make you gay. So please don’t tell anyone that you ARE gay. You don’t know who you are yet. Your identity is not that you are gay – it is that you are a child of God.

We love you. Nothing will change that. But if you are going to follow Jesus, holiness is your only option. You are going to have to choose to follow Jesus, no matter what. And since you know what the Bible says, and since you want to follow God, embracing your sexuality is NOT an option.

We thought we understood the magnitude of the sacrifice that we – and God – were asking for. And this sacrifice, we knew, would lead to the abundant life, perfect peace and eternal rewards. Ryan had always felt intensely drawn to spiritual things; He desired to please God above all else. So, for the first six years, he tried to choose Jesus. Like so many others before him, he pleaded with God to help him be attracted to girls. He memorized Scripture, met with his youth pastor weekly, enthusiastically participated in all the church youth group events and Bible Studies and got baptized. He read all the books that claimed to know where his gay feelings came from, dove into counseling to further discover the “why’s” of his unwanted attraction to other guys, worked through painful conflict resolution with my husband and I, and built strong friendships with other guys – straight guys – just like the reparative therapy experts advised. He even came out to his entire youth group, giving his testimony of how God had rescued him from the traps of the enemy, and sharing – by memory – verse after verse that God had used to draw Ryan to Himself.

But nothing changed. God didn’t answer his prayer – or ours – though we were all believing with faith that the God of the Universe – the God for whom NOTHING is impossible – could easily make Ryan straight. But He did not.

Though our hearts may have been good (we truly thought what we were doing was loving), we did not even give Ryan a chance to wrestle with God, to figure out what HE believed God was telling him through scripture about his sexuality. We had believed firmly in giving each of our four children the space to question Christianity, to decide for themselves if they wanted to follow Jesus, to truly OWN their own faith. But we were too afraid to give Ryan that room when it came to his sexuality, for fear that he’d make the wrong choice.

Basically, we told our son that he had to choose between Jesus and his sexuality. We forced him to make a choice between God and being a sexual person. Choosing God, practically, meant living a lifetime condemned to being alone. He would never have the chance to fall in love, have his first kiss, hold hands, share intimacy and companionship or experience romance.

And so, just before his 18th birthday, Ryan, depressed, suicidal, disillusioned and convinced that he would never be able to be loved by God, made a new choice. He decided to throw out his Bible and his faith at the same time, and to try searching for what he desperately wanted – peace – another way. And the way he chose to try first was drugs.

We had – unintentionally – taught Ryan to hate his sexuality. And since sexuality cannot be separated from the self, we had taught Ryan to hate himself. So as he began to use drugs, he did so with a recklessness and a lack of caution for his own safety that was alarming to everyone who knew him.

Suddenly our fear of Ryan someday having a boyfriend (a possibility that honestly terrified me) seemed trivial in contrast to our fear of Ryan’s death, especially in light of his recent rejection of Christianity, and his mounting anger at God.

Ryan started with weed and beer…but in six short months was using cocaine, crack and heroin. He was hooked from the beginning, and his self-loathing and rage at God only fueled his addiction. Shortly after, we lost contact with him. For the next year and a half we didn’t know where he was, or even if he was dead or alive. And during that horrific time, God had our full attention. We stopped praying for Ryan to become straight. We started praying for him to know that God loved him. We stopped praying for him never to have a boyfriend. We started praying that someday we might actually get to know his boyfriend. We even stopped praying for him to come home to us; we only wanted him to come home to God.

By the time our son called us, after 18 long months of silence, God had completely changed our perspective. Because Ryan had done some pretty terrible things while using drugs, the first thing he asked me was this:

Do you think you can ever forgive me? (I told him of course, he was already forgiven. He had ALWAYS been forgiven.)

Do you think you could ever love me again? (I told him that we had never stopped loving him, not for one second. We loved him then more than we had ever loved him.)

Do you think you could ever love me with a boyfriend? (Crying, I told him that we could love him with fifteen boyfriends. We just wanted him back in our lives. We just wanted to have a relationship with him again…AND with his boyfriend.)

And a new journey was begun. One of healing, restoration, open communication and grace. LOTS of grace. And God was present every step of the way, leading and guiding us, gently reminding us simply to love our son, and leave the rest up to Him.

Over the next ten months, we learned to truly love our son. Period. No buts. No conditions. Just because he breathes. We learned to love whoever our son loved. And it was easy. What I had been so afraid of became a blessing. The journey wasn’t without mistakes, but we had grace for each other, and the language of apology and forgiveness became a natural part of our relationship. As our son pursued recovery from drug and alcohol addiction, we pursued him. God taught us how to love him, to rejoice over him, to be proud of the man he was becoming. We were all healing…and most importantly, Ryan began to think that if WE could forgive him and love him, then maybe God could, too.

And then Ryan made the classic mistake of a recovering addict…he got back together with his old friends…his using friends. And one evening that was supposed to simply be a night at the movies turned out to be the first time he had shot up in ten months…and the last time. We got a phone call from a social worker at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle asking us to come identify our son – that he had arrived there in a coma, in critical condition. We spent 17 days at Harborview, during which time our whole family was able to surround and love on Ryan. We experienced miracle after miracle during that time, things that no doctor had any medical explanation for. God’s presence was TANGIBLE in Ryan’s room. But that is a long, sacred story that I’ll have to tell another time.

Though Ryan had suffered such severe brain damage that he had almost complete paralysis, the doctors told us that he could very well outlive us. But, unexpectedly, Ryan died on July 16, 2009. And we lost the ability to love our gay son…because we no longer had a gay son. What we had wished for…prayed for…hoped for…that we would NOT have a gay son, came true. But not at all in the way we used to envision.

Now, when I think back on the fear that governed all my reactions during those first six years after Ryan told us he was gay, I cringe as I realize how foolish I was. I was afraid of all the wrong things. And I grieve, not only for my oldest son, who I will miss every day for the rest of my life, but for the mistakes I made. I grieve for what could have been, had we been walking by FAITH instead of by FEAR. Now, whenever Rob and I join our gay friends for an evening, I think about how much I would love to be visiting with Ryan and his partner over dinner. But instead, we visit Ryan’s gravestone.

We celebrate anniversaries: the would-have-been birthdays and the unforgettable day of his death. We wear orange – his color. We hoard memories: pictures, clothing he wore, handwritten notes, lists of things he loved, tokens of his passions, recollections of the funny songs he invented, his Curious George and baseball blankey, anything, really, that reminds us of our beautiful boy…for that is all we have left, and there will be no new memories. We rejoice in our adult children, and in our growing family as they marry…but ache for the one of our “gang of four” who is missing. We mark life by the days BC (before coma) and AD (after death), because we are different people now; our life was irrevocably changed – in a million ways – by his death. We treasure friendships with others who “get it”…because they, too, have lost a child.

We weep. We seek Heaven for grace and mercy and redemption as we try – not to get better but to be better. And we pray that God can somehow use our story to help other parents learn to truly love their children. Just because they breathe.

Source: http://justbecausehebreathes.com/

 

[michaelvpardo]

For too many years, people whose sexual orientation was other than heterosexual have been marginalized in the churches, made to feel dirty, useless, etc. Sometimes they are subjected to what can only be viewed as spiritual and emotional torture. And when they ultimately cannot change who they are, they are often driven away, and wind up abandoning God, falsely believing that He rejected them.

Others have been deluded into thinking that they can become what they are not, and some have maintained this illusion for years, only to be devastated when it ultimately fails. Such self-delusion usually results in depression, self-loathing, loss of faith in

Hello Aaron,
You read as quite sincere and I don't doubt that sincerity, however, I reject the notion that a single "unbiased" scholar (or even a small group of them) came up with a truer alternative translation than that provided by multiple translators of different faiths or secular scholars with no religious agenda (as in translations commonly used for courses that study the Bible as literature.)
Romans chapter 1 seems clear in describing the unnatural use of the body (rather than simpler more vulgar terms) as a sign of God's wrath upon a mankind that rejects Him. In response to such a passage, those who promote the "gay life style" agenda have attempted to prove that this type of sin is not unnatural but common to animals (by misinterpreting observed social dominance behavior and abnormal behavior of animals in captivity.) Even if such a thing were true for animals, God clearly created us to be more than mere beasts, having given us the ability to understand what He has called sin and the power to make choices.
In your complaints with regard to the demonization of non heterosexuals within the context of the church, I think that you've mistaken what is a common sociological phenomenon that remains as carnality within the church for a manifestation of church doctrine. Recorded hate crimes against homosexuals are by no means limited to "religious" individuals and I've seen no evidence to indicate that those within the churches that I have attended would ever commit such crimes. That being said, the word of God does specifically call for believers to avoid fellowship with other professing believers that live sinful lifestyles in open rebellion to God, not for the purposes of punishment, but rather to apply social pressure toward repentance and restoration.
The nature of our society at large (which social engineers are attempting to change through early educational indoctrination) tends to make certain types of sin more acceptable and others less so, but this isn't the case with God. From what you've stated, you seem to have missed a very significant point of understanding about the Christian life. The bible teaches us that when we receive our Lord Jesus Christ as our Lord by faith, we are changed, renewed in spirit, a new creation, but the scripture also teaches us that we retain something of our old nature within our minds and in the nature of our carnality (as creatures of fleshly and worldly desire). Our old nature strives against our new nature and for this reason we are called to live according to the Spirit rather than according to the dictates of our flesh. This is a simple thing to say, but certainly not so simple or easy to do.
You've said that people can't change who they are and in this you are correct. The bible also makes as much clear to us, however God can and does change us when we submit to His will and follow His plan for the church.
As an example I'll mention that I've heard a very popular Pastor from the Calvary Chapel "movement" speak openly about having been saved while having same sex attraction as a youth, and now lives a "normal" lifestyle as a happily married man content with his wife and the responsibilities that God has given him over a very large congregation. This Pastor has been actively preaching and teaching not only in his own congregation but over the radio for at least two decades and I've never heard a single evil word spoken of him. I'm sure that this man is not unique as I've met others who were saved in similar circumstances and after many years are still living happy and content lives by the grace of God. Does this mean that they have no struggles with sin? I sincerely doubt it.
I'll share a personal confession (not just with you but with everyone who cares to investigate these public discourses). When I was young and lived for many years in a "single" lifestyle, I had a real problem with pornography and kept company with people of an immoral bent, though at that time I never considered this to be a problem (though I had enough of a sense of sin that I kept these things largely private.) The real problem with this bent toward sexual immorality only became obvious to me after I'd believed the gospel and submitted my soul and my future to my Lord and Savior. I'd like to say that I've never fallen in these areas, but that would just be adding lies to what is already gross sin. The fact that we struggle with evil bents in our nature does not condemn us in the eyes of God, nor does failing in the struggle against our own sin, however, it does disqualify us from office in the church when we are incapable of living above reproach. A biblical church will always restore fellowship with those who sin but seek repentance and separation from their sin. If this weren't the case, there would be no church and the only attendees would be liars and hypocrites. The acceptance of repentant sinners within the church is always going to be a matter of the spiritual maturity of any given congregation, but the proper practice of church discipline is also a sign of such maturity, the lack of the former being evidence of the lack of the latter.
Does this mean that you have to go through life feeling uncomfortable with yourself and your own desires? The truth of the matter is that we should never be comfortable with sin and that we will struggle with sin until that day when we are perfected in His presence. When you are young and it seems that all your life is before you, this might seem in some way unreasonable, but consider Israel after the Exodus and under the leadership of Joshua. They moved into a land filled with enemies as conquerors. Their successes were God's successes, but their failures were their own. They failed to completely dispossess the Canaanites and God allowed this so that they might be tested and learn about warfare in the process: Victory always came through obedience and submission, failure came through rebellion and self will. The fact that we are not "under law" does not mean that we are free to be lawless, but God has called us to lives of obedience and He has promised us victory and joy in the process.
Does this seem unfair or somehow unjust? How can you possibly compare a lifetime of 70 or maybe 80 years of struggle to an eternity of peace, joy, and pleasure in the presence of our God? If all we have to look forward to is this life and what we experience in it, we are the most miserable of creatures.
I hope and pray that you can receive these things with understanding. Christianity was never intended to be a lifestyle, but rather the gospel is a means of deliverance from destruction and Jesus is the way of restoration and reconciliation first to God the Father and then to each other. We aren't called to be Christians for a lifetime, but to be reconciled to God for all eternity by grace and through faith, which requires our willful participation and submission to His will. This amounts to a covenant of sacrifice on our parts, giving up this base life in exchange for the promise of glory as an act of faith. If you believe God's promises, its really a small thing to live for Him rather than for yourself.
Jesus taught His disciples this:
"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.'' His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.'' But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: "For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.'' Matthew 19:9-12
For men, Jesus' sayings didn't get much harder than this, but little effort brings little reward, and while all that we may do for our Lord is by His grace, our efforts are made to His glory and to the honor of our King. Were those lives wasted that were cut short in martyrdom? And did those who spent their lives living in foreign lands, attempting to bring the gospel to strange peoples with little reward to themselves, live their lives in vain?
You may not ever know victory over your own peculiar bents, but I know this for certain: Drawing near to God brings death to "self." The old man (our base nature) can only retreat from the presence of God, so drawing near to Him purifies us, and we do this by prayer and confession and fellowship with one another. Don't buy the lie. For men, change is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Don't allow your understanding to be conformed to this world, but "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" and walk with God by faith. May the Lord strengthen you according to His purposes in Christ Jesus. Amen.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Hi Michael, thank you, but I've already gone into great detail earlier on the chapter of Romans, so we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on that.

That said, here is an article that is well worth reading on this subject if you think that persecution of gay people is only a historical thing.. it most definitely is not:

Op-Ed- 'How anti-gay Christians evangelize hate abroad', by Kapya Kaoma. Rev. Kaoma is an Anglican priest and the senior religion and sexuality researcher at Political Research Associates in Boston. He wrote the reports "Colonizing African Values" and "Globalizing the Culture Wars."

If you live in the United States, it's easy to be lulled into thinking that the battle for broader civil rights for gay people is nearly over. The last few years have brought important victories in courts, legislatures and at the ballot box, and momentum is firmly on the side of increased equality.

That's not true, however, in other parts of the world. The hateful vitriol that has fueled U.S. culture wars for so long is now being exported, and some of our most ardent culture warriors are finding a far more receptive audience abroad.

The people of Uganda, Nigeria, Russia and elsewhere are leading their own struggles for human rights. Their fight is difficult enough without campaigns of vilification designed by American preachers who distort the meaning of the Gospels to justify the criminalization , and even murder, of innocents.

In nations such as these, an insidious homophobia engineered in America is taking root. I have seen this hate being spread with my own eyes. People who are gay, or suspected of being gay are being rounded up, beaten, murdered, and even burned to death by ‘Christian’ mobs who have learned such hatred from preachers and pastors in the U.S., who have exported such teachings abroad.

In March 2009, while in Kampala, Uganda, researching reports of U.S. right-wing evangelical involvement in attacks on LGBTQ equality and reproductive justice, I was invited to a three-day conference on homosexuality hosted by the Family Life Network, which is based in New York. The keynote speaker was Scott Lively from Springfield, Mass., who introduced himself as a leading expert on the "international homosexual agenda." I filmed Lively over the course of two days as he instructed religious and political leaders about how gays were coming to Uganda from the West to "recruit children into homosexuality."

Some of his assertions would have been laughable had he not been so deadly serious. He claimed that a gay clique that included Adolf Hitler was behind the Holocaust, and he insinuated that gay people fueled the Rwandan genocide.

In the United States, Lively is widely dismissed as an anti-gay firebrand and Holocaust revisionist. But in Uganda, he was presented — and accepted — as a leading international authority. The public persecution of LGBTQ people escalated after Lively's conference, with one local newspaper publishing the pictures and addresses of activists under the headline, "Hang Them."

Lively was also invited to private briefings with political and religious leaders, and to address the Ugandan parliament during his 2009 visit. The next month, Ugandan lawmaker David Bahati unveiled his Anti-Homosexuality Bill, which in its original form called for the death penalty as punishment for a new crime of "aggravated homosexuality."

In recent years, millions of dollars have been funneled from anti-LGBTQ evangelical conservatives to Uganda, funding local pastors and training them to adopt and mirror the culture-war language of the U.S. Christian right. Bahati and a notorious anti-gay pastor, Martin Ssempa, were personally mentored by U.S. conservatives. And powerful Christian right organizations such as the Family Research Council lobbied Congress to change a resolution denouncing the Uganda legislation.

Other prominent right-wing evangelicals have also made Uganda appearances, including California's Rick Warren and Lou Engle, who founded TheCall ministry. They met with politicians, hosted rallies and public meetings, and used their influence and credibility to contribute to a culture war in Uganda much more intense and explosive than anything seen in the United States; Lively himself described the work as a "nuclear bomb" in Uganda.

In December, the Ugandan parliament finally passed the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, and last month President Yoweri Museveni signed it into law. The death penalty provision was removed, but the law includes life sentences for homosexual "repeat offenders" and criminalizes advocacy on behalf of LGBTQ Ugandans.

Uganda has deservedly received widespread attention, but it's not the only country with a culture war that carries the fingerprints of U.S. campaigners. Nigeria has passed a bill almost identical to Uganda's, and Cameroon and Zambia are enthusiastically imprisoning LGBTQ people.

And let's not forget Russia. In 2007, Lively traveled throughout Russia to, as he put it, bring a warning about the "homosexual political movement." He urged Russians, among other things, "to criminalize the public advocacy of homosexuality." Last year, President Vladimir Putin signed a bill into law that criminalizes distribution of "gay propaganda" to minors, including any material that "equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations." In Russia, because of this law, gay people are being beaten and even murdered now, with no response from the authorities.

Later this year, the World Congress of Families — an Illinois-based conservative umbrella organization — will convene in Russia. As the group's leader, Larry Jenkins, put it: "We're convinced that Russia does and should play a very significant role in defense of the family and moral values worldwide. Russia has become a leader of promoting these values in the international arena." U.S. religious culture warriors have strategically focused on countries already suspicious of America, often ones with authoritarian leaders eager to turn public attention away from issues of corruption or economic inequality.

 

[Jun2u]

I have never believed in the terms, “agree to disagree” or “it is your opinion and not mine,” at least not in the things of God.

I don’t really think you understood Romans 1:26-27. There, the term “God gave them over,” literally means God ‘gave up’ on them to do those things which were not convenient! To prove this, you should have continued reading through to the next verse 28. There, the term “reprobate mind” is a term meaning “unsaved.”

You can try to justify your desires but it will not wash with the Bible. In fact Jeremiah 17:9 have declared “the heart is desperately wicked,” and, likewise with Matthew 5:28.

So from everything we read in the Bible about homosexuality it is an abomination and the story of Ryan is a classic contrast and example to Luke 14:26

About “judging others” you should read 1 Corinthians 5:1-13.

I say this kindly, but I know a lot of gay people in my culture and they are wonderful and good people, but good and wonderful gay people will NOT inherit the kingdom of God unless they repent [turn about and go the other way], and to repent is not a guarantee either but is a start.

In answer to the OP it is because people have different understanding or interpretation of Scripture!

In Christ

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

I have never believed in the terms, “agree to disagree” or “it is your opinion and not mine,” at least not in the things of God.

I don’t really think you understood Romans 1:26-27. There, the term “God gave them over,” literally means God ‘gave up’ on them to do those things which were not convenient! To prove this, you should have continued reading through to the next verse 28. There, the term “reprobate mind” is a term meaning “unsaved.”

You can try to justify your desires but it will not wash with the Bible. In fact Jeremiah 17:9 have declared “the heart is desperately wicked,” and, likewise with Matthew 5:28.

So from everything we read in the Bible about homosexuality it is an abomination and the story of Ryan is a classic contrast and example to Luke 14:26

About “judging others” you should read 1 Corinthians 5:1-13.

I say this kindly, but I know a lot of gay people in my culture and they are wonderful and good people, but good and wonderful gay people will NOT inherit the kingdom of God unless they repent [turn about and go the other way], and to repent is not a guarantee either but is a start.

In answer to the OP it is because people have different understanding or interpretation of Scripture!

In Christ

Hi Jun2u, the reason there are many different denominations within Christianity and that there have been religious wars within Christianity and divisions within the Church since the earliest of times, is precisely because there are different understandings or interpretation of Scripture. This is nothing new, or unique to what I share with you. This is a 'debate' forum that explicitly says it is created for: " A Christian forum for intra-faith debate of the open-handed and controversial issues within the faith (Proverbs 27:17)"

So, unless I am required or forced to agree with one particular person's denomination or belief within the faith, which would negate the entire reason for this debate forum, please respect my views as I respect yours. Thank you and God bless you.

I and many millions of other Christians are sharing what I and they believe within the faith, on a Christian site devoted to the discussion of, controversial issues within the faith, and so am not required to have to subscribe, or agree with, only 'one' definition of interpretation or belief of Scripture. That is why when encountering another person within the faith who do not, or will not agree with you on a certain subject, the universally polite and civilized way to end the discussion so that there is not useless or non-Christian argument merely for argument's sake, is to say "Thank you but we will have to agree to disagree."

That said, on the subject of 'eunuchs' as brought up before, the following Scripture is quite enlightening:

Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth and his first letter to Timothy both include lists; 1 Corinthians include a list of actions that will keep someone from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and 1 Timothy includes a listing of unrighteous people. Neither of these lists claims to be all-inclusive.

On the other hand, Jesus made a list that does appear comprehensive:

Matthew 15:18-20

KJV: (King James Version, 1611): "…those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man…"

Darby Translation (DARBY): "... but the things which go forth out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile man. For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies;these are the things which defile man; but the eating with unwashen hands does not defile man."

Obviously, Jesus did not consider homosexuality important enough to specify in what looks like an all-inclusive list.

Matthew 19 has a more significant message.

In Matthew 19:3-12 Jesus answers questions posed by Pharisees about divorce, leading to a question whether it is not perhaps better not to marry. He responds to it with a short discussion in Matthew 19:12 that the King James Version (1611) translates this way:

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb; and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men; and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Castrated males are not the only people included in the term 'eunuch'. There can hardly be a question that gays fall into the eunuch definition given by Christ, and Isaiah 56:4-5 offers a particularly hopeful prospect for those who keep the covenant with God.

Using common sense, rationality and basic logic from what we know about gay people now, it is honest to interpret the third type of eunuch that Jesus mentions as "those who choose to refrain from marriage with women because doing so would be contrary to their God-created nature and therefore dishonest."

In the ancient world, eunuchs were widely associated with homosexuality. Here a self-avowed eunuch is welcomed in to the early church without any concerns about his sexual orientation. He was welcomed on the same basis as other people – his faith in Jesus Christ.

Once people who have prejudice against gays find out someone is gay, it is as if that person has a neon sign on his or her forehead, flashing, "Gay! Gay! Gay!" But God sees people differently, looking past incidental labels and seeing into the core of each being. As the Apostle Peter says, "God shows no partiality." (Acts 10:30)

The grace of God is available to gay people on the same basis as all other humans.

That is what the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch is all about.

The author of Acts sought to write a well-researched history of the acts of the apostles following the resurrection of Jesus and his ascension into heaven. In chapter eight of that book, we find Philip heading a great evangelistic campaign in Samaria. The story tells us that along with "proclaiming the Messiah," (8:4) Philip was healing people and casting out demons. His efforts were going so well, and so many were coming to faith, "there was great joy in that city." (8:8) However, in the midst of this great revival, the Holy Spirit told Philip to "get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (8:26) This road was in the wilderness.

This seems like a strange command: Leave the great revival among the Samaritans, and go out into the wilderness. But Philip did what God asked. Then the story gets even stranger. Out in the wilderness, Philip finds a lone Ethiopian eunuch traveling south from Jerusalem. The author tells us the man was sitting in his chariot, reading from Isaiah. Having just been to Jerusalem to worship, he was now headed home.

It is this nameless man who makes the story so important to gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians, and the acceptance of them. So, let us look more closely at the identity of the Ethiopian eunuch. At the time of the writing of Acts, the term Ethiopian was used to describe people from Nubia, south of Egypt. So, we know from this description that he was probably a black African. But that still leaves us with the question, "What is a eunuch?"

The Greek word used in Acts is 'eunouchos', which means literally "guardian or keeper of the couch."The term refers to those who were placed in positions of highest trust in royal palaces and wealthy households. Eunuchs served and guarded the women in these households. Because of their intimate access to the royal courts, eunuchs often rose to senior government positions. In this story, the Ethiopian eunuch was Treasurer to the Queen of Ethiopia. (8:27)

Not just anyone was permitted to serve as a eunuch. Given their intimate access to the women of the household, they had to be men who could be trusted not to have affairs with (or force themselves upon) the women — because to do so would cloud the line of succession to the throne and confuse inheritance rights. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the ideal candidate for the position of eunuch would be someone known for his disinterest in women. Although the ancients did not have the same clear concept of heterosexual and homosexual that we do today, people were put together in the same way then as now. There were men then (as now) who had a reputation for being disinterested in women as objects of sexual attraction. They would make the ideal eunuch.

Of course, it was not always possible to find someone like this. In those situations, or in situations where the master wanted to be extra cautious, eunuchs were often castrated, i.e., their testicles were removed so they would be incapable of fathering children. But it would be historically inaccurate to picture eunuchs as a bunch of straight men who were castrated. Ancient literature indicates that various types of eunuchs were recognized. There were "man-made eunuchs," meaning those who had been castrated. But there are also references to so-called "natural" or "born" eunuchs. This category also included males who from childhood seemed incapable of or disinterested in intercourse with women.

It is clear from the ancient literature that eunuchs as a class had a reputation for being attracted sexually to men, rather than women. For example, an ancient Summarian myth about the creation of eunuchs says they "do not satisfy the lap of women." They were specifically created, the myth says, because they can resist the wiles of women. - Inanna's Descent into the Nether World, (Journal of Cuneiform Studies, Vol. 4, # 4, 1950), page 200.

The book of Sirach, found in the Old Testament of the Catholic Bible, says that embracing a girl makes a eunuch groan. (Sirach 30:30) The Roman playwright Juvenal (who lived near the time of Christ) stated, "When a soft eunuch takes to matrimony. . . it is hard not to write a satire."

Lucian, a Greek satirist who lived about one hundred years after Christ, compares a eunuch with a concubine to a deaf man with a flute, a bald man with a comb, and a blind man with a mirror. In other words, a eunuch has as much need for a woman as a fish has for a bicycle.

With this historical background, we can now return to the story in Acts 8 about the Ethiopian eunuch. The point we have been leading up to is this: When the Ethiopian introduced himself to Philip as a eunuch, Philip would have immediately known he was dealing with a man who was part of a class commonly associated with homosexual desire.

Acts 8:32-33 tells us the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah 53:7-8. This passage was seen by early Christians as a prophecy about Jesus. The whole chapter tells about the suffering of God's anointed one. Verse 3 says, "He was despised and rejected by others." Verse 7 says, "He was oppressed and he was afflicted."

So, in Jerusalem, the Ethiopian eunuch would have been assured by the people of God that he could not become one of them. He would have been despised and rejected, cut off from God's grace by the religious leaders.

Perhaps someone among his friends had furtively told him about Isaiah 56:3-5, which promises eunuchs who keep God's commandments that someday they will receive a house, a monument, and a name within God's walls.Perhaps, like gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians today, he had gone to his religious leaders pointing to the Scriptures which affirmed him, hoping he might somehow be accepted with kindness and love. But instead, he had been clobbered once again with Deuteronomy 23:1. A eunuch "may not enter the assembly of God's people!" And so he had taken his precious scroll of Isaiah and begun his journey home, reading about another of God's children who had been despised, rejected, and cut off.

It was at this point Philip, guided by the Holy Spirit, happened along and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" The Ethiopian eunuch, still seeking a religious authority figure, answered "How can I unless someone guides me?" (8:31)

So, Philip started with this Scripture and "proclaimed to him the good news of Jesus." (8:35) Then they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is some water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?" Philip's answer should be astonishing to anyone who still holds a prejudice against gay, lesbian, and bisexual believers.

Philip responded, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."

Philip did not say, "Let's talk about Deuteronomy 23:1." He also did not say, "I realize since you're a eunuch that you may desire men; can you promise me you'll never have a sexual relationship with a man?" Instead, operating under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." We have no way of knowing whether the Ethiopian eunuch was in fact gay. But we do know he was part of a class of people commonly associated with homosexuality and that this fact was completely irrelevant to whether he could become a Christian.

The implications of this story are profound for gay, lesbian, and bisexual people, and for the acceptance of them by the church.

This story illustrates that what matters is how we relate to Jesus — a point made over and over again in the New Testament, but which many modern Christians refuse to apply consistently.Scripture is not what keeps them from accepting their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters; only prejudice does.For if there were some authentic scriptural basis for excluding the Ethiopian eunuch because of the real possibility he was homosexual, we can be sure that Philip, a man who followed God even when God led him into the wilderness, would have been quick to pursue it.

 

[Wormwood]

Thank you wormwood. However, I most definitely am not demonizing anyone, because as I've stated clearly before, no one is required to agree with me, or with the many entire denominations and millions of fellow Christians who believe as I do on this subject. We can respectfully agree to disagree. It's not merely Rev. W.H.C. who teaches this, but hundreds of translators and scholars who are in complete agreement with him, which is why so many entire denominations have changed their mind on this. In addition, no where did I state or imply that Christians were using Scripture 'in order to' do something bad... it said: 'Sometimes' they (gay people) are subjected to what can only be viewed as spiritual and emotional torture. And when they ultimately cannot change who they are, they are often driven away, and wind up abandoning God, falsely believing that He rejected them.

Thanks for responding Aaron. The implication from your message was that theological institutions had intentionally changed the meaning of Koine Greek words in order to advance an agenda on human sexuality. You said these other scholars sought to "honestly" and "accurately" translate the Koine Greek by implying that the theologians have had an "agenda" other than properly understanding the Greek language.

That is essentially implying that those who disagree with these translators are either not "honest" or are deceived about the meaning of the Greek. As I have said, this is certainly NOT the case. Most of the denominations that have come to accept homosexuality do not do so based on the language of the Koine Greek. There are a host of reasons, and I assure you that most of them have nothing to do with linguistics. Some denominations believe the Bible is not inerrant but that it contains inspired truths that are meant to be reassessed by spiritual people of different cultures or eras. Some denominations feel this issue is a cultural one and thus dismiss the texts for that reason. Many think that these rules simply do not apply. Many say that the prohibition to homosexuality is no different than God's prohibition for eating shellfish in the Old Covenant. Those who do try to make linguistic arguments generally do so claiming that the "type" of homosexuality is the issue...not homosexuality in general. They would claim that the Greek and Hebrew do condemn homosexuality, but claim its only the kind that was associated with paganism and idol worship that is being addressed in the Bible.

So, there are scores of reasons why various denominations embrace homosexuality. I have found that most of them do not accept the Bible as inerrant. I am glad that yours does, but I think the claims about the Greek language and what the words mean are in the overwhelming minority. Again, Koine Greek is a dead language. It is well preserved and scholars have been studying it for thousands of years. There has been no conspiracy to change word meanings. Most of the new "findings" are related to trying to see potential ways in other documents that words could be taken in a different light. There are efforts to expand the meaning of the words we currently understand. So, yes, it seems very clear that you were implying that other scholars have not been "honest" and that there was an "agenda" driving current word definitions which may be what you have been told...but its simply not true.

I understand your position and how you feel that gay people are being mistreated...although I think torture is a bit overstated. I hope all homosexual people know that God loves them and Christ died for them. However, homosexual activity is a behavior and not the same as race. Perhaps the desire is innate. I do not think it is beyond the realm of possibility. This is still much different than having a skin or hair color. No matter our desires, we can still control our behaviors. The disciples felt it was unbearable to be married to one and only one person for life...they said, "If this is the case it is better not to marry!" Jesus said essentially, "That's fine, some are eunuchs for the kingdom of God. But those who can accept it, should accept it." Essentially, Jesus is saying, "This is God's design. If you cant embrace the design, then its okay for you to live as a single person your whole life." I mean, I am not Catholic, but priests and nuns embrace celibacy in order to focus their life on serving Christ. I don't think this is the same as "torture" because they cannot be married or engage in sexual activity. It is a choice they make in their effort to serve Christ. Anyway, my point is this: not embracing in sexual acts is possible...even if the lusts and desires are there. People do it all the time...in fact, Jesus encouraged his disciples to do it if they couldn't embrace the once for all mentality of marriage. Paul encouraged it so that people could be more devoted to serving Christ! Jesus nor Paul was not being cruel or mean spirited. They were being honest about God's plan for marriage and that sexuality is not something that HAS to be expressed! Again, this is far different than saying that someone's skin color is an abomination. There is a HUGE difference between sexual conduct and skin color and ethnicity. We can debate the meaning of the Scriptures, but lets not paint those who feel (with good reason) that the Bible prohibits any kind of homosexuality and that it is an act that demands repentance, are therefore being dishonest, agenda -driven bigots that ultimately emotionally and spiritually torture others.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Hi wormwood. Thank you and you're welcome. That said, I haven't 'painted' anyone any differently than anyone here has 'painted' me. The words above are your own, and are not mine.

I have been extremely polite, loving, and made it very clear that I'm totally okay with people not agreeing with me, but it seems that other people aren't okay with me disagreeing with them.

I find it extremely disconcerting that after being provided many examples of people being arrested, imprisoned, beaten, tortured, murdered, and even being burned alive over how God created them, and who they naturally love, or feeling that they have to commit suicide over the treatment they have received from people who call themselves Christians... that no one seems to find that upsetting in the slightest, or want to discuss the matter of all those brutal deaths, but instead, seem to want to focus on 'me' personally, even though there are millions upon millions of other Christians who share my view on this matter... why is that, or am I mistaken in feeling that way?

 

[Wormwood]

Thanks for responding Aaron. Well, I apologize if I am misinterpreting your writing. It just came across as though you were saying that these teachers you follow were the only ones being honest in their approach to the Greek language and that others were deceived by a theological agenda. Maybe I misunderstood.

I am okay with you disagreeing with me. I am only hoping that the discussion would revolve around our different understandings and why we arrived at them...not painting those who disagree with us as dishonest or intentionally trying to change word meanings in order to advance an unbiblical agenda. If you want to deal with the facts, word meanings, how we arrive at them and various literature on the subject..that's fine...but I also understand if you don't want to...as you expressed before. I have only injected myself from time to time when I feel like your points are not accurate about how we have come to our understanding of the Greek text.

I do feel it is horrible about how supposed Christians through the ages have treated people. However, the mistreatment of a people group does not make that people group right in their understanding. For instance, Christians have treated Jews horribly in various periods of Christian history. However, the actions of those who claimed the name of Christ does not, by default, make those they mistreated correct in their view. Jewish people, like all people, should be loved and respected. Just because they were mistreated, does not mean that Judaism is true and Christianity is false. The same could be said of how those who claimed to be Christians treated Muslims, and other religious groups. Homosexuals should never be beaten, tortured, burned, or murdered....no one should. I think every sound-minded Christian on here would agree with that. I just think you are taking leaps here that because we disagree on God's view on what constitutes appropriate sexual behavior, that I condone the mistreatment homosexuals. I assure you this is certainly not the case. I have never implied such a thing and so I don't know how you would come to that conclusion. I apologize if I led you to believe otherwise.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Thank you and I wish Christ's blessings upon you Wormwood.