Why can these Bible teachings and commands be ignored while others can not?

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7angels

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aaron
if your view is correct then as i said above the whole bible will agree. so please explain to me your views on these scriptures.

Lev 18:22 You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act.
Lev 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.
Jude 1:7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

​i could go on but let us stop here and we can go further later ok

God bless
 

Aaron Lindahl

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7angels said:
aaron
if your view is correct then as i said above the whole bible will agree. so please explain to me your views on these scriptures.

Lev 18:22 You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act.
Lev 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.
Jude 1:7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

​i could go on but let us stop here and we can go further later ok

God bless
Hi 7angels, thank you and God bless you too! I just went into great detail on Leviticus 20:13 in the post previous to yours above (post #120) and Leviticus 18:22 translates basically the same way which I also went into great detail on post #20..

[SIZE=10.5pt]Ezekiel 16:49 says quite clearly - [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]One of the more common arguments against homosexuality used to be the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. We say "used to be," because many biblical scholars and teachers today realize that there is insufficient scriptural backing for that argument. Let us together take a clear, honest look at these cities, and let us determine who the inhabitants were, and why God destroyed them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The first thing to realize is that it wasn't just two cities involved. Today, we only remember the names of two, but in truth, God was about to destroy all the cities of the plain. In addition to Sodom and Gomorrah, the cities of Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar were also about to be destroyed.[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt](Gen. 14:2; Deut. 29:23) Zoar was spared so that Lot and his daughters could flee there, but Admah and Zeboiim met the same fate as Sodom and Gomorrah. Another interesting point is that, at least in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, the Bible doesn't tell us their real names. [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Consider:[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] The Hebrew word for Sodom is [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]סדם [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]S'dom [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]and means "burnt[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]."[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] The Hebrew word for Gomorrah is [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]עמורה[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]'Amorah, [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]and means "a ruined heap[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]."[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] There can be no question that these names were given to the cities after they were destroyed, and were not their original names.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The inhabitants of these cities, like all the Canaanites, were worshippers of false gods. These included the god Molech, arguably the most horrible of all the idols of Canaan. Molech was a huge statue with his arms held out in front of him. A fire would be kindled between his arms, and then newborn children would be placed in his arms and burned alive. This was known as "passing your children through the fire to Molech."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Other practices engaged in by the Canaanites included adult human sacrifice, cannibalism, and temple prostitution. (Having sexual relations with temple prostitutes as a form of worship in fertility cults.) Is it any wonder that God was determined to destroy these cities? From a spiritual perspective, people who worship idols and engage in the above-mentioned practices are extremely likely to become demon-possessed, and it is quite probable that many, if not most, of the inhabitants of the cities of the plain were possessed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Lot, Abraham's nephew, moved to the city of Sodom with his wife and two daughters. God sent two angels to Sodom in the evening, ostensibly to investigate the rumors of the sinfulness of the city. The real purpose of their visit, though, (since God already knew what was going on) was to rescue Lot and his family from the impending destruction. The account of their visit to the city is found in Genesis 19. Lot was sitting in the gate. This is significant. The person who sat in the gate, that is, the gatekeeper, was entrusted by the rulers of the city to monitor all traffic in and out of the city, and not to admit anyone who could endanger the city in any way. This was a serious responsibility, and the fact that it was given to Lot, who was not a native of the city, but a relative newcomer, was unusual.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]A word about the angels: Forget, for a moment, the traditional stereotypes of angels, that is, women with flowing blond hair and huge feathered wings. In scripture, angels usually appeared in the form of men. Frequently, there was nothing unusual about their appearance that would suggest they were anything other than human beings.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Lot greeted the two visitors, as was his responsibility as gatekeeper. (He bowed to the ground, which was not an uncommon form of greeting from an inferior to a superior, in this case, from a public servant to strangers whose social status was unknown.) He then evidently inquired about their business in the city and specific destination, again, as part of his job. Upon learning that they intended to spend the night in the street, Lot insisted that they stay at his house. Some have argued that this was because he knew they would not be safe in the streets. The obvious aside, that there has probably never been a city where it is safe to sleep in the streets at night, the reason for Lot's insistence was actually quite different. It was simply the law of hospitality. This law was unwritten at the time, but was universal throughout the area. It simply stated that if a stranger came to your home or city, you were to treat them as if they were part of your family. You were responsible to lodge, feed and protect them, even at the cost of your own life. Examples of Abraham treating strangers in this way can be found both in scripture and other Jewish writings. This law was later included in the Law of Moses.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]After much urging from Lot, the two visitors went to Lot's house and he made dinner for them. Later that night, a mob formed outside of Lot's house, demanding he bring out the guests. Traditionalists would have us believe that the mob was made up of homosexual men, wanting to have sex with the angels. But a careful reading of the verses shows clearly that this was not the case. Gen. 19:4 tells us "But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter." At first glance, it does appear to be a crowd of men.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]But let's look deeper. The phrase "the men of the city, even the men of Sodom"[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]is misleading. In Hebrew, [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]אנשי[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]העיר[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]אנשי[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]סדם[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]"anshei ha'ir, anshei S'dom,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]can also be translated as "the people of the city, the people of Sodom."[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]But is that a more correct translation? The rest of the verse will answer that for us: "...both old and young,[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]all the people[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]from every quarter." There is no question, then, that the entire population of Sodom gathered outside Lot's house, men, women and children. This alone tells us that the traditionalists were wrong about the intent of this mob: If you are planning a homosexual orgy, you don't invite the wife and kids![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Of course, this begs the question, how did this mob come to form, and what did they want? The Bible doesn't tell us, so we have to read between the lines and in so doing, backtrack from the mob scene outside Lot's house to where the crowd first gathered. First, the fact that the entire population of the city was involved tells us that this was, to them, a matter of vital civic importance. They evidently felt that the visit of these two strangers was something that could affect every person in the city in some way. So logic suggests that the gathering would have begun at whatever public place Sodom used for such things, such as a City Hall or public square. Here was the situation as they would have seen it: Lot, a stranger who moved here and was given a position of some responsibility, has invited two strangers of unknown origin into the city and into his home. Sodom had only recently come out of war (Gen. 14:1-2), and for all they knew, these men could have been spies. It was essential for the safety and peace of mind of all the citizens, that they determine the identity of these men. They knew, of course, of the law of hospitality, but the safety and security of the city overrode that. So a plan was devised: They would peacefully go to Lot's house and ask to meet the strangers and know who they were. They even had their words chosen: "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out and let us know them." It should be noted that this was phrased as a request, using a polite form of the verb "to know," and was not phrased in a hostile, demanding way. And so the crowd began to move toward Lot's house.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Between their starting point and Lot's house, something happened to this crowd of concerned citizens that turned them into a mob. When they reached Lot's house, they delivered their prepared request, but even though the grammar was still very polite, the character of the people was now that of an ugly lynch mob. What could have happened?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]If the people of Sodom were possessed, as they most likely were, this would explain what happened. Even though the people did not know the visitors were angels, the evil spirits inside of them did. When you put a devil in the presence of someone holy, there will almost always be a reaction from the devil. (See Mark 5:1-7) The closer this crowd got to the angels at Lot's house, the more riled up the demons got, and the more out of control the people got. This seems the only plausible explanation. The polite grammar of the crowd shows clearly that they could not have started out as a mob.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]There are those who claim that when the crowd said[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]"let us know them,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]they meant[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]"have sex."[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]There are even translations of the Bible that say[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]"let us have sex with them,"[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]or "let us know them carnally."[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]Let us state categorically, that the Hebrew text will NOT support such "translations."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Some say that Hebrew has more than one verb for "know" and that the one used here means "have sex." Let's set the record straight on this. The root of the Hebrew verb for "know" is ידע[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]yada.[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]A form of yadais used here and hundreds of other times in scripture. Only about ten of those times refer to sex, and in each case, the sexual meaning is clear by the context. (Example: Adam knew his wife and she conceived.) To try to make this word mean sex everywhere will get us in a lot of trouble, because the scripture tells us that God knew David, and uses a form of this word. We don't think anyone would be foolish enough to try to attach a sexual meaning to that. When the crowd outside Lot's house said they wanted to know the visitors, they meant exactly that: To know who they were. Or at least, that was what they meant when they started out.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]It doesn't take a genius to recognize a lynch mob. And a tiny family like Lot's couldn't hope to fight off such a mob. The only hope in such cases is to try to talk them out of it, or, failing in that, to try to distract them in some way. Lot tried both. He went out to them and asked them not to behave so wickedly. The hostile intent of the mob was clear to him, despite the polite words they used. It was also clear immediately that talking was not going to work. They were in what could only be termed a bloodlust. Lot, in desperation to protect his guests, did what the law of hospitality required. He was willing to sacrifice the lives of his daughters to protect the guests. A word about the two daughters: These girls were engaged to two men from Sodom. An engagement was much more binding in those days than it is today. Lot offered his two daughters, still virgins, to the crowd in place of the strangers. If he could distract the men of the crowd, then they, as the leaders of the city, could have disbanded the mob, and the guests would be safe.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Consider this: If the men of Sodom were homosexual, there is no way Lot would not have known. He would have known it would be pointless to offer women to homosexual men. He could, and would, have offered them something they would be more likely to accept.[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] (Had the crowd outside Lot's house really been interested in raping the men inside, it hardly seems plausible that they would politely ask permission to do so, using a mild euphemism for sex. Hebrew has a number of verbs to describe sexual intercourse, and at least one of these, [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]עגב[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] agav, is considered somewhat vulgar. A rape gang would be far more likely to use a crude verb such as this.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Lot's offer was refused, and they seized him, and said they were going to do worse to him than they were planning to do to his guests. Did they attempt any type of sexual contact with Lot? No! Instead, they tried to kill him. There was no sexual situation here at all. But, just for the sake of argument, if the intent of the crowd had been to force the angels to have sex, the crime would have been rape, not homosexuality.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Ezekiel recorded the sins of Sodom: Ezek. 16:49-50 - pride, fullness of bread, abundance of idleness, they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy, they were haughty and committed abomination, or actually 'taboo'. A note about this unspecified abomination: In the Law of Moses, many things are called abomination, including such things as eating pork and shellfish, having sex with a woman during her period, etc. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]But Sodom and the other cities were destroyed before the Law was written, so we need to look outside the Law for the definition of this word. Outside the Law, the word abomination almost always refers to the practices associated with idol worship, some of which were enumerated earlier. It should also be noted that ancient Jewish commentaries on Sodom (in the Mishnah) all agree that Sodom and the other cities were destroyed because of their cruelty to strangers and their failure to help the poor. None of them suggests anything in regard to homosexual activity.[/SIZE]
 

7angels

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Aaron Lindahl said:
Hi rockytopva, I'm sorry but we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree, along with my entire denomination, and many other entire denominations on the above statement.

Leviticus 20:13

The translations of this verse found in most English Bibles cannot be supported by the Hebrew text.

Incorrect translation:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (KJV)

Correct translation:

"And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman's bed, both of them have made a taboo. Dying they will be put to death; their blood is on them."

Below is a direct word by word translation of this verse from Hebrew into English:

ואיש אשר ישכב את זכר משכבי אשה תועבה עשו שניהם מות יומתו דמיהם בם

V’ish asher yishkav et-zachar mishk’vei ishah to’evah asu shneihem mot yumatu d’meihem bam.

(Transliterated using modern Israeli Sephardic pronunciation.)

V’ish - This is two words. First, V’, which means and. This word cannot exist by itself, and therefore is attached to the word that comes after it, that is, ish. This word means man. Hebrew has no indefinite article (a, an), so when the definite article (the) is not used, as in this case, an indefinite article is understood. Therefore, this word translates as a man. So the first two words of this verse are And a man.

asher - This word means who, which or that, depending on context. Since it is used with a man, it would mean who. And a man who.

yishkav - This is a verb. Unlike English verbs, everything we need to know about tense and person is contained in this one word. No additional pronouns or tense markers are needed. The root of the verb is the last three letters: sh-k-v, and it meanslie down. The first letter of the word, y, is not part of the root, but indicates person and tense and even gender. To translateyishkav into English will require four words. The word translates as he will lie down. If a subject is already present in the sentence, as in this case, then the pronoun of the verb (he) is omitted in translation. And a man who will lie down.

et - This word means with. And a man who will lie down with.

zachar - This word means male. The verse so far reads "And a man who will lie down with a male"

mishk’vei - This is a noun. The base form of the noun is mishkav, and it can be seen that the last three letters of the base, sh-k-v, are also the three letters of the verb root above, meaning lie down. This noun means bed. Hebrew nouns have more than one form. In addition to having singular and plural forms, many nouns also have absolute and construct forms. An absolute noun stands alone, with its own meaning. A construct noun is grammatically tied to the noun that follows it. In English it often translates by placing the English word ‘of’ between the two nouns. A good example is the Hebrew Beit Lechem(Bethlehem), which in English translates as House of Bread. This is because the first word, Beit, is in the construct state.Mishk’vei is in the plural construct state, meaning beds of. It would be a good idea here to explain a bit about Hebrew prepositions: Hebrew has prepositions that correspond to ours, but doesn't always use them the same way. For example, when people leave us, in English we say that we miss them. But in Hebrew, the verb to miss is used with a preposition, and we say that we miss to them. The same works in reverse, that is, sometimes English requires a preposition when Hebrew doesn't. If a preposition can be derived from context, Hebrew will sometimes leave it out. In English, we need it. Therefore, we need to insert the English word in before the words beds of in order for the sentence to make sense in English. The verse so far reads And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of.

ishah - This is the Hebrew word for woman. Since there is no definite article (the), it is understood to mean a woman. "And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman." Since this sounds awkward in English, we have to rephrase it as “in a woman’s bed.” And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed.

(Note: The word mishk'vei only appears three times in scripture: Gen. 49:7; Lev. 18:22; Lev. 20:13. In Genesis, it is paired with the word avicha, which means "thy father," and the phrase is correctly translated in most versions as "to thy father's bed." As in Lev. 18:22, the preposition is derived from context.)

to’evah - This is a noun. It has been traditionally translated as abomination, although this is not correct since there are many forms of a to'evah. A more correct word would be 'taboo'. Without a definite article, it has been translated as 'an abomination', but the correct translation would be 'a taboo'. Hebrew word order often varies from ours, and this is one case where this is true. In English, this word will come later in the sentence, so we will hold off on adding it to the translation until we have finished with the next two words.

asu - This is a verb. It means make or do. This form is past tense, and translates as they have made or they have done. A subject for the verb is following in the sentence, so the word they can be left out of the translation. In English, word order is usually subject-verb-object, so in order for our translation to make sense, the next word, which is the subject, will need to come before this word and the previous word.

shneihem - This word is made of two particles combined. First is shnei, which is the construct form of the number two. Because it is construct, we add the English word ofto the translation: Two of. The second particle is hem, which is called a pronominal ending. Depending on context, it translates as they, them or their (all masculine). Put together, this word means two of them, or less awkwardly, both of them. And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo;

mot - This is a gerund form of the verb to die. It corresponds to our word dying. And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo; dying.

yumatu - This is a future form of the same verb. It translates as they will be put to death. The phrase dying they will be put to death expresses the certainty of the sentence, and is rendered in some English versions as they will surely die, which is an acceptable translation. And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo; dying they will be put to death,

d’meihem - This word is made of two particles combined. The first is d’mei, a construct form of the word for blood. Because it is construct, we could insert of after it, but we will see further on that adding of in this case will make the translation awkward. The second particle is the pronominal ending hem, as seen above in shneihem. Put together, this word means blood of them. Since this is awkward, we would translate the word as their blood. "And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo; dying they will be put to death, their blood..."

Our next point of grammar involves the present tense forms of the verb to be. In English these forms are am, art, isand are. Hebrew has such forms, but almost never uses them, except in reference to God, or when absolutely necessary for context. The reason for this may be that the forms are too close to God's name in Hebrew. While this may seem awkward to us, there are many other languages that don't use the present tense of the verb to be. Russian, for example, has become so used to ignoring the forms, that some of them are completely obsolete. The Russian equivalent of am can't even be found in a dictionary or grammar book any more. They get along fine without it, and so does Hebrew. But English can't, so we have to insert the appropriate forms when translating: "And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo; dying they will be put to death, their blood is.."

bam - This word is a contraction. Unlike English contractions, no apostrophe is needed. It is formed by taking the preposition b, which means in, and which cannot exist as a separate word, and attaching it to the final letter of the pronominal ending hem. The resulting word means in them. As mentioned earlier, Hebrew doesn’t always use prepositions the way we do, and this is one case where English would use a different preposition to express the same concept. We would use on, so we will translate the word as on them: "And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo; dying they will be put to death, their blood is on them."

This is the correct translation of Leviticus 20:13. It can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply forbids two males to lie down in a woman’s bed, for any reason.

If anyone finds that hard to believe, God also forbid anyone to eat any type of shellfish, octopus or squid, or to wear clothing made of 2 different mixed fibers (such as wool and linen, or polyester and cotton today), and listed such things as 'abominations' as well, although the true Hebrew word is ‘Toevah’ which the closest word in English would be ‘taboo’.

I've already gone into great detail on that in comment #108 above.
now let me define the verse you deciphered.
And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo; dying they will be put to death, their blood is on them."
A taboo is a vehement prohibition of an action based on the belief that such behavior is either too sacred or too accursed for ordinary individuals to undertake, under threat of supernatural punishment. The term was translated to him as "consecrated, inviolable, forbidden, unclean or cursed.

abomination means worthy of or causing disgust or hatred.

so what we have so far is telling us that if a man lays down with a man the both of them are in violation of a sacred behavior deserving of divine punishment. if you ask me taboo sounds even more intimidating then abomination.

dying they will be put to death

now this part has me stumped on the actual meaning. but it sounds like what is being stated is the punishment for breaking the taboo is death.

their blood is on them

the following verse shows us that the blood represents atonement for your soul. so in other words you are taking your own life in your hands and according to scripture we can do nothing upon ourselves. so we are in sin.
Leviticus 17:11 [Full Chapter]
For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].

if you have a different meaning i would like to hear it.

God bless
 

Aaron Lindahl

Veritatis Amans
Dec 8, 2014
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7angels said:
now let me define the verse you deciphered.
And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made a taboo; dying they will be put to death, their blood is on them."
A taboo is a vehement prohibition of an action based on the belief that such behavior is either too sacred or too accursed for ordinary individuals to undertake, under threat of supernatural punishment. The term was translated to him as "consecrated, inviolable, forbidden, unclean or cursed.

abomination means worthy of or causing disgust or hatred.

so what we have so far is telling us that if a man lays down with a man the both of them are in violation of a sacred behavior deserving of divine punishment. if you ask me taboo sounds even more intimidating then abomination.

dying they will be put to death

now this part has me stumped on the actual meaning. but it sounds like what is being stated is the punishment for breaking the taboo is death.

their blood is on them

the following verse shows us that the blood represents atonement for your soul. so in other words you are taking your own life in your hands and according to scripture we can do nothing upon ourselves. so we are in sin.
Leviticus 17:11 [Full Chapter]
For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].

if you have a different meaning i would like to hear it.

God bless
Hi 7angels, does that mean we should feel disgust or hatred for people who eat shellfish or octopus since God lists those as 'abominations' as well?

I'm sorry but we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on your statement above since it only says that 2 men cannot lie down together at the same time in a bed that belongs to a female, which is a much different meaning than what you want to ascribe to it, and I told you in my previous comment above that I'd already addressed the word 'abomination' or 'taboo' in great detail in post #108, but possibly you missed that part, so here it is again for you, thank you:

The word “abomination” is found, of course, in the King James translation of Leviticus 18:22, a translation which reads, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.” Yet this is a thoroughly misleading rendition of the Hebrew word 'toevah', which definitely does not mean “abomination", besides the fact that it actually says 2 males shall not lay together in a woman's bed.” An “abomination” conjures up images of things which should not exist on the face of the earth: three-legged babies, oceans choked with oil, or Cheez-Whiz. And indeed, this is how many religious people regard gays and lesbians.

Yet a close reading of the term toevah shows an entirely different meaning: something permitted to one group, and forbidden to another.Though there is (probably) no etymological relationship, toevah means taboo.

The term toevah (and its plural, toevot) occurs 103 times in the Hebrew Bible, and almost always has the connotation of a non-Israelite cultic practice. In the Torah, the primary toevah is avodah zara, foreign forms of worship, and most other toevot flow from it. The Israelites are instructed not to commit toevah because other nations do so. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 makes this quite clear:

"When you come into the land that YHVH your God gives you, do not learn to do the toevot of those nations. Do not find among you one who passes his son or daughter through the fire; or a magician; or a fortune teller, charmer, or witch… because all who do these things are toevah to YHVH and because of these toevot YHVH your God is driving them out before you."

Elsewhere, Deuteronomy 7:25-26 commands:

You shall burn the statues of their gods in fire. Do not desire the silver and gold on them and take it onto yourself, else you be snared by it, for it is a toevah to YHVH your God. And you shall not bring toevah to your home

[SIZE=10pt]Deut. 12:31, 13:14, 17:4, 27:15, and 32:16 further identify idolatry, child sacrifice, witchcraft, and other “foreign” practices as toevah, and Deut. 20:18 says that avoiding toevah justifies the genocide of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanaites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. [/SIZE]So, toevah is serious, but it is serious as a particular class of cultic offense: a transgression of national boundary. It is certainly not “abomination.”

[SIZE=10pt]Toevah is used four times in Leviticus 18—once to refer to specific male, but not 'general', homosexual acts, and then three times as an umbrella term. As in Deuteronomy, the signal feature of toevot is that the other nations of the Land of Israel do them: “You shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit these toevot… because the people who were in the land before you did these toevot and made the land impure (tameh)” (Lev. 18:26-27; see also Lev. 18:29). The term is repeated with reference to specific homosexual activity in Lev. 20:13.

Similarly, the Books of Kings and Chronicles use toevah nine times to refer to acts that other nations did in the Land of Israel:[/SIZE]

1 Kings 14:24 (general);
2 Kings 16:3 (child sacrifice);
2 Kings 21:2 and 2 Kings 21:11 (idolatry);
2 Chron. 28:3 (child sacrifice);
2 Chron. 33:2 (idolatry);
2 Chron. 34:33, 36:8, and 36:14 (general). (Ezra 9:1, 9:11, and 9:14 use the word in exactly the same way.)

In all these cases, toevah refers to a foreign cultic behavior wrongly practiced by Israelites and Israelite kings.

[SIZE=10pt]And likewise, the prophet Ezekiel uses the term toevah a record-setting 39 times to refer to idolatry (Ez. 5:11, 6:9, 6:11, 7:20,14:6, 20:7-8, 22:2, 44:6-7, 44:13), usury (Ez. 18:13), haughtiness and pride (Ez. 16:47-50; the “Sin of Sodom”—more on that in a future article), heterosexual adultery (Ez. 22:11, 33:26), and violence (Ez. 33:26), as well as a general term for foreign acts (Ez. 16:51) or transgression, often in a cultic context (Ez. 5:9, 7:3-4, 7:8-9, 9:4, 11:18, 11:21, 12:16, 16:2, 16:43, 18:24, 20:4, 33:29,36:31).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]In one extended passage (Ez. 8:1-18), Ezekiel is taken on a visionary tour of toevot, all of which have to do with idolatry and each, Ezekiel says, is worse than the previous one, beginning with an image on the door of the gate of Jerusalem, to idols and imagery in a house of worship, to women weeping for the god Tammuz,* to men worshipping the sun within the Temple itself. This extended passage, with six mentions of toevah, links the term in every instance with avodah zara, or idolatry.[/SIZE]

In five instances, Ezekiel mentions toevah together with both idolatry and zimah or znut, “whoredom” (Ez. 16:22, 16:36, 16:58,23:26, 43:8), strongly showing that the nature of sexual toevah is not mere lewdness, and certainly not loving intimate expression, but sexuality in a pagan cultic context.

[SIZE=10pt]Now, so far, it is unclear whether a toevah is detestable because it is foreign, or foreign because it is detestable. This question is resolved elsewhere in the Bible, because Israelites are not the only ones with toevot. There are several examples of things which are toevah for Egyptians but perfectly acceptable for Israelites.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Genesis 43:32 states that eating with Israelites is toevah for Egyptians. Gen. 43:34 states that shepherds are toevah to Egyptians—the sons of Israel are themselves shepherds. In Exodus 8:22, Moses describes Israelite sacrifices as being toevat mitzrayim (toevah of Egypt), although obviously Israelite ritual is not an objective “abomination.” If toevah means abomination, then eating with shepherds, eating with Israelites, and Israelite sacrifices themselves must be abominable! Since this clearly is not the case, toevah cannot mean “abomination” in any ontological sense—[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]it must be a relative quality.[/SIZE]

Toevah can also mean other things. It can refer to ritual imperfection: Deut. 17:1 uses it to refer to the sacrifice of a blemished animal, and Deut. 19:19 bans as toevah sacrifices bought through prostitution or “the price of a dog.” Deut. 22:5 calls crossdressing a toevah (incidentally, in Orthodox Jewish law, this includes women wearing pants). Remarriage (i.e. of the same two parties) is toevah according to Deut. 24:4. The sole ethical use of the term in the Torah is in Deut. 25:16, in which the use of unequal weights and measures is called toevah.

In the Book of Proverbs (which comes late in the Bible but which scholars believe to have been composed prior to the Deuteronomic and Levitical material), toevah is used twenty-one times to refer to various ethical failings, including the ways, thoughts, prayers and sacrifices of the wicked (Prov. 3:32, 15:8-9, 15:26, 16:12, 21:27, 28:9), pride (Prov. 6:16, 16:5), evil speech (Prov. 8:7), false weights (Prov. 11:1, 20:10, 20:23), devious heartedness (Prov. 11:20), lying (Prov. 12:22, 26:25), scoffing (Prov. 24:9), justifying the wicked and defaming the righteous (Prov. 17:15). Interestingly, Proverbs 13:19 says that “to turn from evil is toevah to fools,” again suggesting that toevah is something relative in nature. Similarly, Prov. 29:27 says poetically: “An unjust man is toevah to the righteous, and the straightforward man is toevah to the wicked.”

Finally, other books of the Bible adapt the meaning of toevah in accord with their overall literary agendas. Isaiah uses it to refer to the sacrifices of hypocrites (1:13, 44:19), as a taunt against earthly power (41:14), and idolatry (66:3). Jeremiah associates toevah with idolatry (Jer. 2:7, 7:10, 32:35) and unspecified transgression (Jer. 6:15, 8:12, 44:22). Malachi (2:11) uses it to refer to the Israelites’ having “married the daughter of a foreign god.” And Psalm 88:9 poetically uses the term to refer to being alienated from one’s friend: “You have taken me far from my acquaintance; made me a toevah to him, put away, and I cannot come out.”

Even these variant uses, in most cases, point to the nature of toevah as something foreign or, more generally, something which is or ought to be far away from oneself. Proverbs’ use of toevah is the exception, rather than the rule; in the overwhelming majority of cases, toevah has nothing to do with ethics, and everything to do with cultic behavior, idolatry, and foreign ritual. However we may understand this type of transgression, it is certainly not “abomination” in the modern sense.

Indeed, “abomination” itself is an inexact and extremely poor translation, used by the King James and other biblical translations for multiple terms. The KJV uses the word twenty-six times to refer to sheketz, an analogous term to toevah which refers usually to idolatry and occasionally to other taboos such as forbidden animals (Lev. 11:10-13). Likewise, Leviticus 7:18 describes leftover sacrificial meat as pigul—but King James again says “abomination.” And 1 Samuel 13:4, speaking of King Saul and the Philistines, uses the term nivash, yet again rendered as “abomination.” And so on, including 1 Kings 11:5-7, 2 Kings 23:13, Isaiah 66:17, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11(sheketz), and many more.

The KJV even uses “abomination” six times in translation of New Testament texts (Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 16:15, and Revelation 17:4-5, 21:27). All these biblical terms refer to different violations, yet the umbrella term “abomination” eludes any distinction between them. As a result, the KJV lists exactly 150 occurrences of the term “abomination,” though only 103 of them translate toevah.

Now, if by “abomination,” the King James means a cultural prohibition—something which a particular culture abhors but another culture enjoys—then the term makes sense. But in common parlance, the term has come to mean much more than that. Today, it connotes something horrible, something contrary to the order of nature itself, or God’s plan, or the institution of the family, or whatever. It is this malleability of meaning, and its close association with disgust, that makes “abomination” a particularly abominable word to use. The term implies that homosexuality has no place under the sun (despite its presence in over 1,500 animal species), and that it is an abomination against the Divine order itself.

Christians who want to be true to the original spoken Word must stop using the word “abomination” to refer to toevah. The word plays into the hands of fundamentalists on the one hand, and anti-religious zealots on the other, both of whom want to depict the Bible as virulently and centrally concerned with the “unnatural” acts of gays and lesbians. In fact, toevah is mostly about idolatry, and male homosexual behavior is only as abominable as remarriage or not keeping kosher, and only within specific situations. Whenever we use the word “abomination” we are perpetuating the misunderstanding of biblical text and the religious persecution of LGBT people.
 

jerseygirl

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@Aaron, I'm sorry that you were disrespected on this forum. I don't believe it is appropriate even in the case of someone else "believing" that you are not a Christian brother. We, as Christians, are not privy to judge the soul of another.. that is for God Himself to do. If you claim Jesus as your Lord and Savior than that is between you and God. However, we are called to be watchful of our brothers and sisters lest they fall into the pit. IN LOVE.

The Apostle Paul said in Galatians 6:1, “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.” James 5:19-20 says,
“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”
That being said, it is biblical to care about the sins of our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Let me first say I consider the Word all Truth and without error. The bible does speak on the issue of homosexuality, that it is a sin. Every sin separates us from God. But, as far as I know, there is only one unforgivable sin...

Mark
28 For sure, I tell you, all sins will be forgiven people, and bad things they speak against God. 29 But if anyone speaks bad things against the Holy Spirit, he will never be forgiven. He is guilty of a sin that lasts forever.”

Some bible commentaries include the refusal to repent of sin as grieving the Holy Spirit. It is obviously very serious that you consider whether or not homosexuality is sinful and if so, what is the consequence of an unrepentant heart? It seems that you, at some level, acknowledge that the act is a sin (i could be wrong but thats what I thought you were saying) but believe that it will be forgiven along with all other sin. I cannot argue with you regarding the divorce rates of Christians and also the sins of the heart & mind.

I am convicted each and every day of my own sin, which I cannot escape even though I love the Lord. When I ponder the beatitudes… how can I not find myself convicted. I am, as Paul also admitted to, doing the things I hate and hating the things I do. I am repentant but yet I continue to sin. I put myself at the feet of Jesus. I am a sinner and my only hope is in the Grace of God. I believe that each of us is sinful in ourselves (human nature) but considered forgiven if Jesus is our Lord & Savior and we are truly repentant of our sins.

We, as Christians are to be the salt and the light to the world through our actions and attitudes. We should be loving toward our neighbor but many have become hateful. As I've read the bible, I saw Jesus only truly angry when His Fathers House was being disrespected. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I've read Jesus speaking of the prideful pharisees as hopeless but I saw Him show compassion and hope to the rejected, sick and the lost. There are examples in the bible of our Lord forgiving and healing people who, at the time, were considered without worth and whom the pharisees and jews reviled! God, through his Son, spoke to prostitutes and thieves, tax collectors and the demon possessed… and gave them hope. He forgave people because of their Faith in Him as He Himself says:

Luke 7
44 He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house and you gave Me no water to wash My feet. She washed My feet with her tears and dried them with the hairs of her head. 45 You gave me no kiss, but this woman has kissed my feet from the time I came in. 46 You did not put even oil on My head but this woman has put special perfume on My feet. 47 I tell you, her many sins are forgiven because she loves much. But the one who has been forgiven little, loves little. 48 Then He said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Those who were eating with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this Man Who even forgives sins?” 50 He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you from the punishment of sin. Go in peace.”

The Faith of the Syrophoenician Woman
Mark 7…28But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs." 29And He said to her, "Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter."30And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

Other passages stating Jesus healed because of the persons FAITH:
Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that moment.
Matthew 9: 22Jesus turned around, and when he saw her he said, “Daughter, be encouraged! Your faith has made you well.” And the woman was healed at that moment.

I believe the scripture tells us that Jesus forgave and healed those who had faith in Him. These people were unworthy, including unclean women and gentiles. None of the above were forgiven because of their great works, but their absolute faith in Him!


Luke 6: 27 “I say to you who hear Me, love those who work against you. Do good to those who hate you. 28 Respect and give thanks for those who try to bring bad to you. Pray for those who make it very hard for you.

I believe the best thing we can do, as a Christian community, is to show the truth (how we know it) in Love.

God be with you...

@KingJ
"Kind of like when we meet a wife we have strength from our love for her to stop fornication." ?? That comment suggests that one stops fornicating when it becomes convenient to do so… Is that true repentance? That is a matter of convenience, not true regret for ones behavior. Multiple people stated above that any type of sexual uncleanness was considered equally sinful, yet in the case of heterosexuality, it's somehow better? How is that?
 
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Aaron Lindahl

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jerseygirl said:
@Aaron, I'm sorry that you were disrespected on this forum. I don't believe it is appropriate even in the case of someone else "believing" that you are not a Christian brother. We, as Christians, are not privy to judge the soul of another.. that is for God Himself to do. If you claim Jesus as your Lord and Savior than that is between you and God. However, we are called to be watchful of our brothers and sisters lest they fall into the pit. IN LOVE.

The Apostle Paul said in Galatians 6:1, “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.” James 5:19-20 says,
“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”
That being said, it is biblical to care about the sins of our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Let me first say I consider the Word all Truth and without error. The bible does speak on the issue of homosexuality, that it is a sin. Every sin separates us from God. But, as far as I know, there is only one unforgivable sin...

Mark
28 For sure, I tell you, all sins will be forgiven people, and bad things they speak against God. 29 But if anyone speaks bad things against the Holy Spirit, he will never be forgiven. He is guilty of a sin that lasts forever.”

Some bible commentaries include the refusal to repent of sin as grieving the Holy Spirit. It is obviously very serious that you consider whether or not homosexuality is sinful and if so, what is the consequence of an unrepentant heart? It seems that you, at some level, acknowledge that the act is a sin (i could be wrong but thats what I thought you were saying) but believe that it will be forgiven along with all other sin. I cannot argue with you regarding the divorce rates of Christians and also the sins of the heart & mind.

I am convicted each and every day of my own sin, which I cannot escape even though I love the Lord. When I ponder the beatitudes… how can I not find myself convicted. I am, as Paul also admitted to, doing the things I hate and hating the things I do. I am repentant but yet I continue to sin. I put myself at the feet of Jesus. I am a sinner and my only hope is in the Grace of God. I believe that each of us is sinful in ourselves (human nature) but considered forgiven if Jesus is our Lord & Savior and we are truly repentant of our sins.

We, as Christians are to be the salt and the light to the world through our actions and attitudes. We should be loving toward our neighbor but many have become hateful. As I've read the bible, I saw Jesus only truly angry when His Fathers House was being disrespected. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I've read Jesus speaking of the prideful pharisees as hopeless but I saw Him show compassion and hope to the rejected, sick and the lost. There are examples in the bible of our Lord forgiving and healing people who, at the time, were considered without worth and whom the pharisees and jews reviled! God, through his Son, spoke to prostitutes and thieves, tax collectors and the demon possessed… and gave them hope. He forgave people because of their Faith in Him as He Himself says:

Luke 7
44 He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house and you gave Me no water to wash My feet. She washed My feet with her tears and dried them with the hairs of her head. 45 You gave me no kiss, but this woman has kissed my feet from the time I came in. 46 You did not put even oil on My head but this woman has put special perfume on My feet. 47 I tell you, her many sins are forgiven because she loves much. But the one who has been forgiven little, loves little.48 Then He said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Those who were eating with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this Man Who even forgives sins?” 50 He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you from the punishment of sin. Go in peace.”

The Faith of the Syrophoenician Woman
Mark 7…28But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs." 29And He said to her, "Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter."30And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

Other passages stating Jesus healed because of the persons FAITH:
Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that moment.
Matthew 9: 22Jesus turned around, and when he saw her he said, “Daughter, be encouraged! Your faith has made you well.” And the woman was healed at that moment.

I believe the scripture tells us that Jesus forgave and healed those who had faith in Him. These people were unworthy, including unclean women and gentiles. None of the above were forgiven because of their great works, but their absolute faith in Him!


Luke 6: 27 “I say to you who hear Me, love those who work against you. Do good to those who hate you. 28 Respect and give thanks for those who try to bring bad to you. Pray for those who make it very hard for you.

I believe the best thing we can do, as a Christian community, is to show the truth (how we know it) in Love.

God be with you...

@KingJ
"Kind of like when we meet a wife we have strength from our love for her to stop fornication." ?? That comment suggests that one stops fornicating when it becomes convenient to do so… Is that true repentance? That is a matter of convenience, not true regret for ones behavior. Multiple people stated above that any type of sexual uncleanness was considered equally sinful, yet in the case of heterosexuality, it's somehow better? How is that?
Dear jerseygirl, thank you SO very much!!!

I, my congregation, my denomination (which is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) and the other many denominations I listed before, believe that homosexuality in the Scripture is only a sin within specific contexts; namely, pagan prostitution, abusive, outside of a committed monogamous relationship between two people of adult age, or when one is going against their own innate nature in doing so.. pretty much the same as for heterosexual sins.

I list our reasons for believing this in post #13, post #20, post #36, post #59, post #65, post #74, post #108, post #120, and post #122.

Regardless, I do not expect or ever want to 'force' someone to agree with me on this issue, and so am fine if people disagree because it is between them and God, and it is very difficult to change a belief that one has been raised with from childhood, or is all that they've ever known about this issue.

I want to thank and wish Christ's blessings upon you from the depth of my soul and heart, for you are one of the very few on this site who has shown true love, kindness, friendship, and non-judgment towards me. In my mind, you exemplify the following verses:

[SIZE=10pt]1 Corinthians 13:1-8http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/1 Corinthians 13.1-8 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful.."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]1st John 4:7-8http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/1st John 4.7-8 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]“Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”[/SIZE]

Thank you again, I wish you an AWESOME day or night jerseygirl, and God bless you!!!
 

Born_Again

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Okay, this is what I was talking about... it's the same argument post after post... 'This scripture says this......" "And this scripture says this." Its a cut and paste war. 7angles has made the best point so far..... If we are being lead by the Holy Spirit then we should all be on the same page.... Sigh....
 

jerseygirl

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@Aaron, you're welcome. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity!

@Born_Again, I wasn't aware that there was a problem with cutting and pasting scripture. All of the threads I've read so far include the same. If I were not interested in a topic, I'd pick another one to read and comment on. If anyone feels like adding relevant comments to the conversation I don't see any problem. I am still new to this site and I pray that each person is treated with the respect they deserve. We can and should be able to handle even the most contentious issues in a mature manner. Even though this discussion won't change anyones views (obviously) I think it's worth having as it's a central issue in our culture.

You are correct when you say that we'd all be on the same page if we were being led by the Holy Spirit (and were sinless).
 

justaname

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Aaron Lindahl said:
Matthew 7 - "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


The Christians who repeatedly use their measure and judgment to attack, condemn, persecute, and reject gay people with are now being measured and judged by their same standards, and are found to have fallen far short, and are shown to be full of religious hypocrisy. They have been found to be exactly as the people in Matthew 23:28 describe them. Since they took it upon themselves to judge and measure others in clear defiance of what the Bible teaches 'not' to do, they have thus brought the same judgment back upon themselves as the Bible says will happen in such situations.


Now, here are my questions to every Christian who repeatedly commits the sin listed above:


Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to repeatedly and unrepentantly ignore and disobey the teachings from Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 as most Christians do today?


Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to repeatedly and unrepentantly ignore and disobey the 7th Commandment, as defined by Luke 16:18 as most Christians do today?



Why is it that almost all churches openly welcome into their congregations the following people who have committed the following unrepentant sin (as defined by Biblical Scripture), while rejecting and condemning 'unrepentant' homosexuals? Unrepentant, because so many keep divorcing and re-marrying with no rejection or negative consequences by their congregations, such as is done to homosexual people. Is there a place in the Bible where it says you can ignore the sin of people repeatedly committing adultery as defined by the Bible below, but the same people and churches who ignore that sin can repeatedly attack, condemn, and reject gay people for their perceived sins? For some strange reason, no one is able to answer these questions.... unless of course, it is because they are practicing utter religious hypocrisy.


Exodus 20:14 (One of the 10 Commandments)

"You shall not commit adultery.”


Luke 16:18

“Any man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."


1 Corinthians 6:9

Do you not know that unrighteous men will not inherit the kingdom of God? Cherish no delusion here. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor any who are guilty of unnatural crime.”


So many Christians try to rationalize this but it is clear that a true follower of Jesus can neither divorce someone if the spouse has not committed adultery, nor marry someone who is divorced without becoming an adulterer themselves.There is an exception to the rule, however. If a spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is an adulterer. Remember that 83% of this country identifies as Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate for first marriages, a 67% divorce rate for 2nd marriages, and a 73% divorce rate for 3rd marriages and beyond.. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences, not adultery,which shows that such Christians are again practicing selective morality. How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?


On the following subject of religious hypocrisy and double-standards, I'm completely aware that for most modern-day churches the following teachings are completely inconvenient and most might say, not applicable to an enlightened, modern society. Still.... why is it that almost all Churches do not obey the following New Testament teachings, and ignore them? Where in the Bible does it say it’s okay to ignore these commands?


1 Corinthians 14:34-35

“Women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.…”


1 Timothy 2:11-12

“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.”


It quite clearly says that an adulterer cannot enter the Kingdom of God, and yet the majority of modern day congregations are all adulterers by the Bible's clear definition, and the majority of modern day congregations allow their women members to speak anytime they wish to in church, even though the Bible clearly says in the New Testament that that's forbidden. So... Please educate me on why the examples of sin, commandments, and teachings listed above can be ignored, while the sin of homosexual love and desire, cannot be.
In my response to the OP I apologize if I reiterate anything previously discussed or debated.

In order to fairly answer the questions posed within this post, the concept of sin must first be explored. I will be drawing from this source, although not exclusively.
http://www.ucg.org/christian-living/how-does-bible-define-sin/

To gain an understanding of the concept of sin it is important to look to the original languages and see the nuances behind the word.

Two major concepts envelop the word sin.
Transgression: can be thought of as a player stepping out of bounds in a sporting event
To miss the mark: can be thought of as shooting an arrow at an animal and completely missing, thereby going hungry

Sin then is superseding the boundaries set by God or missing the target set by God. All sin is against God violating His nature, His perfect and unstained goodness or holy love. This is the veil between God and man. No sin is acceptable because God cannot accept sin as it goes against His nature. This is why man deserves God's wrath or justice, because we violate His nature when we sin.

So then looking to the biblical definitions of sin we have:

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin not leading to death.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Romans 14:23
But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Sin is not only outward actions but inner thoughts and attitudes. (Matthew 5:27-28) (Proverbs 23:7) (Matthew 15:17-20)
Jesus did fulfill the Law and all its ordinances, yet through His ministry the standard was raised. Love was taught as the guiding principle, and against such there is no law. As it was the Jew practiced rituals in order to comply with the Law, yet his heart was far from God. His actions proved righteousness, yet his heart proved sin. This is where the term "whitewashed tombs" was fitting. Again the Jews cleaned their outward actions, but inwardly they were rotten corpses emitting a stench that God abhorred.

Character is crucial
God expects us to build spiritually mature, godly character in this life, becoming ever more like Him (Matthew 5:48). We build eternal, godly character by remaining faithful to what is right in spite of pulls to the contrary. We resist the temptation to do things we know we shouldn't. We live by faith that God will give us the strength to endure whatever trials we face in this life. But when we compromise we tear down that character. We give in. Every time we give in, we find it that much harder to resist giving in the next time we face temptation.
One of the insidious things about compromise is that it spreads. If we get away with something once, we find it much easier to try it again next time. Compromise grows like a cancer. It comes on slowly, then spreads. Before you know it you can be in a fight for your spiritual life. That is why God says that, if our actions aren't done in faith or according to faith, if they violate our conscience, we are sinning.
We need to be sure that what we do is out of faith and confidence that it is right and acceptable to God—or not do it. We need to be sure our motives are right and our conscience remains clear in everything we do. For this reason it is vital that we properly educate our conscience so that it is in accordance with God's Word, the Bible. It is not within our natural ability to discern right and wrong (Jeremiah 10:23). We are to learn God's ways that define right and wrong for us (Hebrews 5:14).
God wants us to live within the boundaries and standards He has set for us, to change our values, attitudes, thoughts and lives so they are in line with His standards, not our own. The process of conversion can be simply defined as replacing our standards, values and thoughts with God's standards, values and thoughts.

Looking at judgment as being a sin, it is not when applied properly. The principle behind the Matthew passage is mercy. I will venture to say that at the Bema seat the mercy we measure here will directly coincide with the mercy we receive. There is a time when justice must be served and mercy withheld, yet this is not a decision to be made swiftly or without great prayer and contemplation. In this also we must remember vengeance is the Lord's. Seek justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God.

Now to the questions:

There are churches that follow the practices Paul allocates concerning women, even with the covering of heads. Looking to the text a few principles may be drawn, yet in accordance with the OP I am certain this is not the topic being pursued. To briefly answer with all transparency, not all churches follow all the biblical guidelines and principles laid out by the Bible due to cultural reasons.

To the second question.

From the human perspective it is much easier to not tolerate something you yourself are not directly guilty of. As an example: A woman who has never used illicit drugs in her life can easily look to the life of one struggling with an addiction and say that is completely unacceptable, all the while justifying her secret addiction to prescription drugs. Because her addiction stems from a prescription given by a doctor, this addiction is easily justified within her mind. Because the other individual is using illicit drugs, the woman justifies her judgment.

As it is the current cultural society, and especially the Christian culture, has deemed the gay and lesbian lifestyle as outside the accepted normal function, whereas divorce is allowed to run amok and is accepted as normal function. It is much easier demographically to condemn homosexuality than it is to condemn divorce.

I think we could all stand to reflect on what the Master has come for...

Mark 2:17
And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

We must remember the Church is made up of saints, but all saints have a past, and he is truly a saint who put the past behind him.
 
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KingJ

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jerseygirl said:
1. @Aaron, I'm sorry that you were disrespected on this forum. I don't believe it is appropriate even in the case of someone else "believing" that you are not a Christian brother. We, as Christians, are not privy to judge the soul of another.. that is for God Himself to do. If you claim Jesus as your Lord and Savior than that is between you and God. However, we are called to be watchful of our brothers and sisters lest they fall into the pit. IN LOVE.

2. @KingJ
"Kind of like when we meet a wife we have strength from our love for her to stop fornication." ?? That comment suggests that one stops fornicating when it becomes convenient to do so… Is that true repentance? That is a matter of convenience, not true regret for ones behavior.

3.Multiple people stated above that any type of sexual uncleanness was considered equally sinful, yet in the case of heterosexuality, it's somehow better? How is that?
1. The devils believe James 2:19. Are they your brothers too?

2. The only point here is that even an unsaved man who commits to marriage ...can out of love for his wife find the strength he needs to tell all the other girlfriends to go. Now, our love for Jesus has little value if we can't obey His commandments / put our flesh under wouldn't you say?

3. This has been discussed. All sexual immorality is evil. Fornication, adultery, homosexuality, beastiality and pedophilia. Homosexuals and you are simply guilty of moving the goal posts. If we deal with only homosexuals...we find the sin angered God such that He ordained they be stoned to death and that it is quite disgusting that they are proud to be known as a regular mortal sinner. It is like me saying I am proud of being an adulterer. It is how God made me. I will not change. Do not judge me. Well nobody is really judging. Homosexuals bring judgment upon themselves when they call themselves Christians. It is like me pulling the middle finger to Muhammad and calling myself a Muslim, ''do not judge me'' :lol: :ph34r:.

jerseygirl said:
You are correct when you say that we'd all be on the same page if we were being led by the Holy Spirit (and were sinless).
The only requirement to be on the same page is to love what God loves and hate what God hates.....not be sinless. Sin never got someone into Hades and lack of sin never got someone into Abrahams bosom.

Loving sin gets you into hell John 3:19. Now someone who continues proudly in a mortal sin....does not love sin? Is a brother.....really.....? That is simply amazing discernment.

We are brothers and sisters because we all repeated some magical airy fairy words? Really.....? :blink:
 

jerseygirl

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KingJ,

You are simply being insulting now. I am not a sister to satan or any of his minions. You have resorted to unwarranted vicious attacks on another Christian. Number #2 on your list doesn't make sense in the context of our discussion considering we were speaking of the saved and not the unsaved. As for #3 on your list, I haven't moved any "goal posts". Where did I say that I thought homosexuality wasn't sinful. In fact, I said it WAS a sin. I said that the bible was clear on that. Did you actually read my comments?

I believe you are just resorting to changing my words and trying to insult me. The things you've accused me of saying, were not said. Your post is nasty and there is no love in it (that is visible anyway). Your post actually validates what I said about the need to speak to others in a loving way and not in an insulting way. If you don't have Love, you have nothing… even all wisdom and understanding is worthless without Love.

I will always continue to speak to all people in Love, as it's what we were called to do. Each of us was at one time a sinner, unsaved. If we have been saved, it was not by someone insulting us into becoming saved. We need to show Love to others, even those who we judge as sinful. Just as Christ did.
 
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KingJ

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So you did not say ...

1. ''If you claim Jesus as your Lord and Savior than that is between you and God''

2. ''sexual uncleanness was considered equally sinful, yet in the case of heterosexuality, it's somehow better? How is that?''

3. ''you are correct when you say we'd all be on the same page if we were being led by the Holy Spirit (and were sinless)''

So, what you are saying is that 1. my relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with scripture or other peoples discernment, I can live as a sinner and still be called a Christian. 2. Heterosexuality sin is on par with other sexual uncleanness / sex between an unmarried adult male and female = bestiality = pedophilia = homosexuality and 3. if we were all sinless we would be on the same page....meaning nobody is on the same page because we all are sinners....

Have I misunderstood you?
 

Aaron Lindahl

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It seems that some are unaware of the following teachings, or else choose to ignore them, as they ignore so many other teachings that are inconvenient to them:

Titus 3:1-2

Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.”

James 4:11

"Speak not evil one of another, brethren, he that speaks evil of his brother and judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law, but if you judge the law you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver that is able to save and to destroy. Who are you that judges another?”

1 Peter 2:1

Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.”

2 Timothy 3:3

They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and despisers of those that are good.”

Psalm 15:3

He does not slander with his tongue, does no wrong to a neighbor, and casts no slur on others.”

2 Corinthians 12:20

For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.”
 

KingJ

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Aaron Lindahl said:
It seems that some are unaware of the following teachings, or else choose to ignore them, as they ignore so many other teachings that are inconvenient to them:

Titus 3:1-2

Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.”

James 4:11

"Speak not evil one of another, brethren, he that speaks evil of his brother and judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law, but if you judge the law you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver that is able to save and to destroy. Who are you that judges another?”

1 Peter 2:1

Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.”

2 Timothy 3:3

They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and despisers of those that are good.”

Psalm 15:3

He does not slander with his tongue, does no wrong to a neighbor, and casts no slur on others.”

2 Corinthians 12:20

For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.”
Aaron I do have a really big problem with Christian homosexuals in case you havn't noticed. The problem is that instead of keeping your sin in the closet you wear it proudly and customize scripture to justify your sin. That makes you one who could be (note I said could be and not is) a false teacher / one who knowingly teaches falsely. Now we know someone is a false teacher if they know scripture well / are well versed and then push desires of the flesh. You can forgive me for assuming this about you with all your posts of volumes and volumes of scripture. Surely you are not unaware of the very real risk of you stumbling other believers? Surely you feel something bugging you everytime you say the scriptures / manner in which we have believed for centuries is wrong....especially when it is specifically on a lustful desire of the flesh.

Now the scripture you quoted is amazing. But please familiarise yourself with these on rebuke and warnings of and to false teachers.

Prov 27:5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love.
1 Tim 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Titus 2:15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Prov 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
Luke 17:3-4 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Prov 9:8-9 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.
1 Cor 5:11-13 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 

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KingJ said:
Aaron I do have a really big problem with Christian homosexuals in case you havn't noticed. The problem is that instead of keeping your sin in the closet you wear it proudly and customize scripture to justify your sin. That makes you one who could be (note I said could be and not is) a false teacher / one who knowingly teaches falsely. Now we know someone is a false teacher if they know scripture well / are well versed and then push desires of the flesh. You can forgive me for assuming this about you with all your posts of volumes and volumes of scripture. Surely you are not unaware of the very real risk of you stumbling other believers? Surely you feel something bugging you everytime you say the scriptures / manner in which we have believed for centuries is wrong....especially when it is specifically on a lustful desire of the flesh.

Now the scripture you quoted is amazing. But please familiarise yourself with these on rebuke and warnings of and to false teachers.

Prov 27:5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love.
1 Tim 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Titus 2:15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Prov 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
Luke 17:3-4 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Prov 9:8-9 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.
1 Cor 5:11-13 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
Hi King, we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree on who is falsely teaching, who truly needs to be rebuked by other Christians, who is following and actually 'living' Christ's commandments in the true spirit and intention of His Love, and on the subject of people who have an unhealthy, self-serving and burning zeal to use Scripture to condemn and reject all those they dislike, disagree with, or hate.. while ignoring all teachings of kindness, inclusion, gentleness and love. Exactly such type of people created the Inquisition in a shameful and unholy part of Christianity's past.

I have never once shown or taught any 'lustful desire of the flesh' here. So many Christians unfortunately believe that if a person is gay, then they must automatically be part of what they call the 'gay lifestyle'; presumably meaning going out to bars, partying, and having sex with a bunch of strangers. Such a belief is far from the truth. Gay people who are brought up being accepted by their family, community, and church and are able to openly meet, fall in love, and get married where they live, have no need to go to such places or do such things. That dangerous 'lifestyle' and those places only exist because they were rejected and outcast in the first place, with no access to human affection or love, and so had to seek that out, in some big city, many times far away from where they live within the space of one night or weekend. The Christian persecution of them perpetuates the very reason such places and such dangerous 'lifestyles' exist.

The Scripture I have shared talks about two adult people joining their souls together in love and monogamous union before God, and all the many teachings from Jesus to love one another in kindness and gentleness as I listed above and the teaching I list below.

Luke 10:25-37

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’

Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.”

And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”
 

jerseygirl

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KingJ,

Yes, I believe you have misunderstood me. First, If a man says that he loves the Lord and claims Jesus as his personal savior, then I don't feel I (personally) have the ability to know his heart. When I said that was between Aaron and God, I mean just that. Aaron will have to answer to God for his life, just as I will have to answer for mine and you will answer for yours. I believe that, as a Christian, I am supposed to act/speak in love toward others and not be vicious toward others because I do not like their sins. Jesus approached sinners with compassion and love and I think it is better to approach others in the same manner. Acting in Love seemed to be very important to Jesus Himself as He said

Luke 6:
34"If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

We are called to be separate from the world. Being rude and belittling others doesn't represent Christ, in my opinion. Does this mean that I agree with sin? No! Because I choose to be kind and treat people with dignity doesn't make me a sister of satan as you asserted.

I understand, as you said, that you have a serious problem with homosexuality. I actually said in my original post that the bible is clear on the topic of homosexuality, that it is sin. As I understand the bible, any sin separates us from God. Which is what I said. You quoted scripture from Leviticus on the topic of homosexuality. There are also penalties for heterosexual sin in Leviticus which called for stoning.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife,even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

If both sins called for death as it's penalty, how is one death sentence worse than the other death sentence? This is in reference to your quoting me about the difference between one sin and another. My question to you would be, how is one death better than the other? Both sins were punishable with… death.

As for my statement about all of us being on the same page: What I meant by my statement was that we wouldn't need to have conversations on our differing theology and ideas about interpretation of scripture if each and every one of us was led by the Holy Sprit 100% of the time. Truth would be Truth and there wouldn't be different denominations, there would be one. The true one. As we are still in our earthly bodies, we will continue to battle with sin. As we are constantly fighting with the spiritual forces of evil, I believe that we are not each, 100% of the time, following the Holy Spirit. I believe that we are to hate sin and love God, no doubt… but I do not believe that while we are in our earthly bodies, we will agree with each other on everything simply because we hate sin and even though we love God.


So, what you are saying is that 1. my relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with scripture or other peoples discernment, I can live as a sinner and still be called a Christian. 2. Heterosexuality sin is on par with other sexual uncleanness / sex between an unmarried adult male and female = bestiality = pedophilia = homosexuality and 3. if we were all sinless we would be on the same page....meaning nobody is on the same page because we all are sinners....

As for the above statement, I believe that as Christians, we do continue to sin but are also repentant of those sins. And yes, we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ to cover those sins. It is a gift of Grace to be forgiven, considering the bible says each one of us "deserves" death… because none of us is worthy, no not one.

As for #2, if we are following the laws of Leviticus, all of the sins listed would be punishable by death. Now, as Christians, we are no longer slaves to the law if we have Christ. If we choose to place ourselves under the law, then we are responsible for perfect obedience to it. I do actually understand that there are sins we consider worse than others. For instance, I wouldn't go kill someone but I get angry sometimes. They are both sin, nonetheless. Any sin is against God and I have read and acknowledge that the bible speaks of a man laying with another man as an abomination. I also know that there are other sins God Hates! I think we tend to focus on this particular sin more than any other though. I actually stated in my post that unrepentant sin such as this may be grievous to the Holy Spirit, which is the one, unforgivable sin. And I suggested to Aaron to consider that. I chose to speak to Aaron in a loving manner though, which seemed to anger you. I believe what the bible teaches about forgiveness of sin… that it's never to late to repent! We can discuss the unforgivable sin in another thread if anyone would like...

I seems you believe that being kind and speaking in love to someone is equal to agreement with sin. Not so. We are told that LOVE is of great importance in the NT. If I choose to love the sinner, but hate the sin… it doesn't make me in league with satan himself. You can tell a lot about a person based on how they treat others….. I don't feel your comments toward me (condescending and belittling) were appropriate.
 
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KingJ

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Jersey girl I am not against loving the sinner and hating the sin. God loves the devil. He spoke nicely to him in the wilderness on not one but three occasions.

I do not hate Aaron. I want to smack Aaron out of his comfort zone. That is exactly what he needs. Living daily in mortal sin and not having scripture convict you because you have watered it down.....well you may as well book a ticket to hell.

Now perhaps I misread you, but Christians who come along and pat Christians in sin on the shoulders saying 'don't judge' annoy the living crap out of me and should any Christian who actually cares. Those type of Christians are worse then those in the sin.
jerseygirl said:
I actually stated in my post that unrepentant sin such as this may be grievous to the Holy Spirit, which is the one, unforgivable sin. And I suggested to Aaron to consider that.
We are in 100% agreement on that.
jerseygirl said:
If both sins called for death as it's penalty, how is one death sentence worse than the other death sentence? This is in reference to your quoting me about the difference between one sin and another. My question to you would be, how is one death better than the other? Both sins were punishable with… death.
In level of rebellion, they not. Punishment for both was being stoned to death. Only something like sorcery was worse which resulted in burnt at the stake.

As Christian we can gauge further rebellion though in the arrogance of homosexuals to proudly announce to all that they daily approve of / choose to actively be a mortal sinner. Whereas an adulterer would likely keep it in the closet. Though times are changing. Swingers today are worse then a homosexual couple.
 
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7angels

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loving someone is great and should be encouraged but it seems to me by reading the above posts that you are either ignorant of what the bible says about judging or are blatantly disregarding what scripture says. we are told according to scripture to judge all things with the exception of judging people, we are told to judge actions, attitude, beliefs, and ect.

aaron i have read your posts and they hold a persuasive view point. but you split hairs by how you define things and make it sound like one word is less important then another. for example your change of abomination for taboo. satanic worship was taboo but it was still carried out so does this make it right? because in today' society it is ok to start up a satanic church. satanic churches are taboo/abominations to God's way of thinking. all you have done to prove sexual immorality is ok if we sugar coat it by saying that as long as you are married that is becomes acceptable. sin is still sin. nowhere in the bible to my knowledge is sexual immorality(even your sugar coated version) ok with God. even in a homosexual relationship there is the manly person and the submissive one just like a real Godly marriage. it is just that the homosexual marriage is a twist to God's perfect marriage. satan twists everything that God does. just as God creates but satan destroys, God is into life and the devil is into death, God makes us bold and satan makes us afraid, and God tells the truth and satan lies. i could go on and on. all sin great and small are equal in God's sight. with the exception of one and that one is different.

what i find sad is that these forums are a breeding ground for would be teachers and that everything said here we are going to be held accountable for. now i understand why paul lived by a code more strict then what the Word of God tells us is necessary. it was to help him stay on the straight and narrow. aaron i pray you are right in your beliefs because if you are wrong you will be held accountable. it is sometimes safer to error on the side of caution then to take a stand on something that can cause controversy. it is like when you go to a party that it is an unspoken rule to not talk about religion or politics because it will cause trouble. it is already happening on this forum and even within this post. it takes maturity to discuss and not argue and some people are doing better then others. so aaron i plead with you to please set aside all your beliefs on this subject and seek God seriously for answers to the truth without brings your beliefs into it and God will show you. it is always better to have God confirm your beliefs then to just assume you are correct. you have great knowledge concerning the greek and hebrew and when put together with God's wisdom will create great persuasive arguments.

God bless
 

Aaron Lindahl

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7angels said:
loving someone is great and should be encouraged but it seems to me by reading the above posts that you are either ignorant of what the bible says about judging or are blatantly disregarding what scripture says. we are told according to scripture to judge all things with the exception of judging people, we are told to judge actions, attitude, beliefs, and ect.

aaron i have read your posts and they hold a persuasive view point. but you split hairs by how you define things and make it sound like one word is less important then another. for example your change of abomination for taboo. satanic worship was taboo but it was still carried out so does this make it right? because in today' society it is ok to start up a satanic church. satanic churches are taboo/abominations to God's way of thinking. all you have done to prove sexual immorality is ok if we sugar coat it by saying that as long as you are married that is becomes acceptable. sin is still sin. nowhere in the bible to my knowledge is sexual immorality(even your sugar coated version) ok with God. even in a homosexual relationship there is the manly person and the submissive one just like a real Godly marriage. it is just that the homosexual marriage is a twist to God's perfect marriage. satan twists everything that God does. just as God creates but satan destroys, God is into life and the devil is into death, God makes us bold and satan makes us afraid, and God tells the truth and satan lies. i could go on and on. all sin great and small are equal in God's sight. with the exception of one and that one is different.

what i find sad is that these forums are a breeding ground for would be teachers and that everything said here we are going to be held accountable for. now i understand why paul lived by a code more strict then what the Word of God tells us is necessary. it was to help him stay on the straight and narrow. aaron i pray you are right in your beliefs because if you are wrong you will be held accountable. it is sometimes safer to error on the side of caution then to take a stand on something that can cause controversy. it is like when you go to a party that it is an unspoken rule to not talk about religion or politics because it will cause trouble. it is already happening on this forum and even within this post. it takes maturity to discuss and not argue and some people are doing better then others. so aaron i plead with you to please set aside all your beliefs on this subject and seek God seriously for answers to the truth without brings your beliefs into it and God will show you. it is always better to have God confirm your beliefs then to just assume you are correct. you have great knowledge concerning the greek and hebrew and when put together with God's wisdom will create great persuasive arguments.

God bless
Hi 7angels, thank you for your concern and God bless you too. As to this thread, this particular forum says it's expressly created for the open discussion of controversial issues within the Church, which this most definitely is.

What I find sad are the double-standards and moral hypocrisy of so many churches as they pick a few verses out of the Bible to condemn people they don't understand or disagree with on theological issues, while ignoring all others that they find inconvenient to address or follow. As I said before, I have absolutely no worries about the truth of what I share here, and so will not be setting aside my beliefs that are shared by so many millions of other Christians who were not afraid to study this issue deeply, and set aside their ingrained orthodoxy that was based upon what we believe to be innate human prejudice, falsehoods, and extremely poor translations. We'll simply have to respectfully agree to disagree on these issues.

Out of 31,102 verses in the Bible, homosexuality is only mentioned a mere 6 times, and only refers to specific homosexual acts, within specific settings; never condemning it in general... that's really not a great ratio or basis for the argument claiming it's such a life or death issue. If it were that important, Jesus would have mentioned it Himself, and it would be warned against throughout the Bible in many verses such as other important issues are addressed.

But, it is not. This is why so many entire denominations now agree with what I share with you.

I definitely agree with you that we will be held accountable for our actions when we die, so I ask you to reflect deeply within yourself on what the account will be if it turns out that the teachings you believed and practiced in life on this subject, which have caused and still cause the torment, anguish, persecution, rejection and murder of so many millions of such teachings' victims over the past 1,700 years; souls who were mocked, demonized, driven to suicide, tormented, rejected, persecuted and/or killed merely over how God created them, and who they love.. end up being falsehoods created by man, and are not from God.

That said, earlier you stated the following:

[SIZE=10pt]"A taboo[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] is a vehement prohibition of an action based on the belief that such behavior is either too [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]sacred[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] or too accursed for ordinary individuals to undertake, under threat of supernatural punishment. The term was translated to him as "consecrated, inviolable, forbidden, unclean or cursed." [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]"abomination means worthy of or causing disgust or hatred." [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]Leviticus 11:10 says:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]"And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]You never addressed or answered my very simple question I asked you earlier, so I ask you again:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Based upon your reasoning and description of abomination and taboo you listed above, does that mean you think we should feel disgust or hatred for people who eat shellfish, shrimp, or octopus since God lists those as 'abominations' as well?[/SIZE]
 

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Out of 31,102 verses in the Bible, homosexuality is only mentioned a mere 6 times, and only refers to specific homosexual acts, within specific settings; never condemning it in general...
Your recapitulation of these verses suggest they are not general condemnations. However, the most straight-forward reading of the Greek in the NT prohibitions of homosexuality are very much general prohibitions:
“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:26–27, ESV)
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,” (1 Corinthians 6:9, ESV)
“the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,” (1 Timothy 1:10, ESV)
These verses are about as generic as they get. I will address the Greek wording in particular since I know that has been a major contention in this thread. I know that you are not interested in discussing the Greek with me, Aaron, so this is directed at others following this forum who may be confused about the actual wording in these particular verses.

In 1 Timothy 1:10, we have the phrase πόρνοις ἀρσενοκοίταις. Allow me to break down this phrase so it makes more sense. Pornois is a general word referring to sexual immorality. It where we get our word porn-ography. Porn comes from this word and ography comes from the Greek word graphe which means writing. The more important word is arsenokoitais. This is a conjunction of two words arsen - male and koites - bed. This is also one of the words used in 1 Cor. 6:9. This word is not used in Paul's day and therefore it is likely one he coined based on Leviticus 20 that declares it unlawful for a male to lie with another male in bed in place of a woman. It is completely unwarranted, in my opinion, to see these very generic prohibitions (thieves, idolatry, greed, drunkenness) and then claim that this particular word Paul coined has a very specific meaning of only one kind of homosexuality in a very limited sense. There is nothing here to indicate this. It is a very generic list of prohibitions with a coined word that specifically prohibits sexual intercourse between two men as immoral. Paul makes no effort to qualify this word which gives us a very clear picture of what he has in mind. Furthermore, the thought process of Paul seems very clear since historically both Jews and Christians all recognized any and every homosexual activity to be unlawful. We know of no ancient Jewish or Christian teaching that argued for the validity of certain forms of homosexual activity.

Out of time for this post...try to post more later
 
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