Why can these Bible teachings and commands be ignored while others can not?

[lforrest]

lforrest, I greatly admire how you follow Christ's teaching below:

John 13:34

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

Thanks.... I think. 1 Corinthians 13:6-7 "6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

 

[Born_Again]

lforrest, I greatly admire how you follow Christ's teaching below:

John 13:34

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

Once again... Did he at any point say he didn't like or love you? No, he called you out on your sarcasm..... Sheesh. Pick a new angle.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Hi Born_Again, it could only conceivably be 'sarcasm' if you or anyone else were not truly following Christ's teachings and instead be acting in opposition to them... Since that obviously is not the case, being the good Christians you are, there can be no sarcasm here, right?

 

[lforrest]

First you experience a series of rebukes. Then you respond not by thanking these Christian's for their honest opinions, but for their love. Then you give scriptures that condemn hatred.

"Thank you all so much, you fellow Christians, for fulfilling, exemplifying, and living the following teachings of Christ, in how you address, and interact with me, a fellow worshiper of Jesus:"

Obviously you do not appreciate being rebuked and were being sarcastic. I would like to completely break myself of the habit (of using sarcasm) one day.

 

[truthquest]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to such lengths to justify a sexual lifestyle that is clearly condemned in the scriptures with thread after thread of repetition. Aaron, you mention how gay people are persecuted. Seriously, I think you need to read some news articles about how Christians around the world are being persecuted and it's not for defending a sexual lifestyle. Then you might be able to see what real persecution is and count your blessings.

 

[KingJ]

We at least can all agree that we love Jesus.

Please tell me how you think you qualify as someone who loves Jesus?

 

[7angels]

loving someone is great and should be encouraged but it seems to me by reading the above posts that you are either ignorant of what the bible says about judging or are blatantly disregarding what scripture says. we are told according to scripture to judge all things with the exception of judging people, we are told to judge actions, attitude, beliefs, and ect.

I'm guessing (big surprise) that this was meant for me. To be clear, I am neither ignorant of what the bible says nor do I blatantly disregard scripture. For example, I stated that it is justifiable for Christians to judge the sins of others and to speak to them about it in my FIRST post on this thread. Attributing false statements to someone on a public forum isn't exactly Christ-like. Please show me where I said that no one should judge the actions of another. The only comment I made about not judging was in reference to Aaron calling Jesus his Lord and Savior… I have no authority to judge Aaron's heart!

sorry if you took it wrong. but it was not meant for anyone in particular. i just noticed a judging issue vs love issue going on. even Jesus got angry.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Aaron,

I encourage you to report every time there is a comment that you feel is inappropriate or abusive. Hopefully, one of us catches it, but reporting it will ensure someone will look into it. You are correct in that we will try to be fair and not show special privilege to those that agree with us on a subject if they are being abusive and inappropriate. I do not disagree that it is inappropriate to call someone a fool. Again, I will remind everyone to be respectful toward one another on this forum. There is no excuse for name-calling or abusive comments.

I'd like to call attention to the above comment and promise made by a moderator here since that seemed to be thrown out the window yesterday in many of the comments made to me.

[SIZE=11.5pt]Enlightened nations and people now know it to be of the utmost evil to persecute gay people over how they are born, and who they wish to join in love and life with, which is why court after court, and the Supreme Court itself have ruled and will rule soon on upholding their equality, dignity, and worth of love and life.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]For those who constantly attack gays as being somehow subhuman, here's some history for them that shows very differently: The very foundation of Democracy itself, in the birthplace of Western Civilization itself.. was started by two males who were in love with each other.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]The association of homosexuals with democracy and the military was intense and widespread, extending from Harmodius and Aristogeiton, a pair of lovers who founded Democracy by overthrowing the last tyrant of Athens, to the noted generals Pelopidas and Epanminondas, to the great military genius Alexander the Great and his male lover Hephaestion.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Of Harmodius and Aristogeiton, no less acute a mind than Plato’s observed that: “Our own tyrants learned this lesson through bitter experience, when the love between Aristogiton and Harmodius grew so strong that it shattered their power. Wherever, therefore, it has been alluded to be shameful to be involved in sexual relationships with men, this is due to evil on the part of the rulers, and to cowardice in the part of the governed.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]For hundreds of years, larger-than-life statues of these founders of Democracy towered above Athens, as impossible to disconnect with the city as the Statue of Liberty is impossible for us to disconnect with New York.. and young male lovers from England to Egypt, and across the entire Classical world would journey there to pledge their faith and love to each other, underneath those statues.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Gorgidas, the leader of Thebes created the Sacred Band, composed of 300 men, who were all paired lovers. They were known as the ‘sacred band’ because as Plutarch later explained, “even Plato calls the lover a friend inspired of God.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Philip of Macedon and Plutarch recounted how the greatest heroes in the Greek’s own history were all known to prefer other males rather than women: Meleager, Achilles, Aristomenes, Cimon, Epaminondas, Asopichus, and Caphisodorus.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Even Hercules was famous for his male lover, Iolaus, who fought by his side. In Plato’s ‘Symposium,’ he noted the eagerness of the great warrior Achilles to join his lover and military partner in death as an explicit parallel to a wife’s being willing to die for her husband. Their bones were burned and mixed together in a gold amphora, as was done in the case of married heterosexual couples.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Aristophanes said that “..males who prefer other males are the finest men because they have the most manly nature. Their behavior is due to daring, manliness, and virility, since they are quick to welcome their like.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Plato and numerous other classical authors attested to the military value of armies made up of lovers. When Epaminondas fell in battle at Mantineia, his lover died beside him. One of the most formidable and feared Theban warriors of the early Classical Era was Kaphisodoros, who was part of the Sacred Band.[/SIZE]

Here, then are textual references for long-term (in some cases life-long) homosexual relationships in the Greek texts.
[SIZE=11.5pt]Orestes and Pylades, -Orestes is the hero of the Oresteia cycle. He and Pylades were bywords for faithful and life-long love in Greek culture. -see Lucian (2nd C. CE): Amores or Affairs of the Heart, #48[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Damon and Pythias -Pythagorean initiates -see Valerius Maximus: De Amicitiae Vinculo[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Aristogeiton and Harmodius -credited with overthrowing tyranny in Athens. -see Thucydides, Peloponnesian War, Book 6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Pausanias and Agathon -Agathon was an Athenian dramatist (c. 450-400 BCE).It was in his house that the Dinner Party of Plato's Symposium takes place. -see Plato: Symposium 193C, Aristophanes: Thesmophoriazusae[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Philolaus and Diocles -Philolaus was a lawgiver at Thebes, Diocles an Olympic Athlete -see Aristotle, Politics 1274A[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Epaminondas and Pelopidas -Epaminondas (c.418-362 BCE) led Thebes in its greatest days in the fourth century. At the battle of Mantinea (385 BCE) he saved the life of his life-long friend Pelopidas -see Plutarch: Life of Pelopidas[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Members of the Sacred Band of Thebes -see Plutarch: Life of Pelopidas[/SIZE]


[SIZE=11.5pt]Alexander the Great and Hephasteion -Atheaneus, The Deinosophists Bk 13[/SIZE]

That said, many Christians today are guilty of being just like the Pharisees, as they use scripture as a weapon and to persecute others, while ignoring every teaching and command that is inconvenient for them to follow. The following teachings describe them well, in addition to the 2nd most important commandment of all Scripture, that they ignore every day while thinking they are condemning those who disagree with their teachings, or who question their actions to hell.

Matthew 5:22

“But I guarantee you, if you are even angry with a brother or sister, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. Whoever calls another believer a fool will answer for it in hell-fire.”

Matthew 22:36-40

“Teacher, what is the most important commandment in the Law?” He replied, “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your being, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second most important commandment is like it: You must love your neighbor as you love yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands.”

Matthew 23-4

“They (the Pharisees both ancient and modern) crush other people with unbearable religious demands and yet themselves never lift a finger to ease the burden.”

Matthew 18:21-22

“Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven!”

Matthew 23:13

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.”

Matthew 23: 15

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!”

For those who wish to constantly rebuke me, since I am not one who hates, attacks, and persecutes people over how God created them, and who they love, and since I don't seek out personally other members on their threads to do so, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree on who needs to be rebuked.

 

[Born_Again]

Everything you just described.... Condemning us, you do the same things from the other side of the spectrum. On top of that, posting numerous potentially homosexual couple through out history has what to do with any of this??? And there was post made earlier that was overlooked, Do you see nations rising up and burning entire towns of homosexual people and killing them in mass genocide? You are so wrapped up in your agenda to push that life style you cant even acknowledge that your own faith is under fire by the rest of the world in proportions never seen before... This is where this is getting self serving.

We don't agree with what you post, and you turn around and throw enough scripture to choke a goat condemning everyone. Here is my compassion for you, sir... I am truly saddened that you are so wrapped up pushing this that you have missed the boat. We have only shown you where God's word says your doctrine is false. You have focused more on historical events about homosexual rights and couples and put a less effort in providing substantial proof that this behavior is acceptable in the eyes of Christ. I did pray for you. And I will continue to pray for you.

To help open your eyes a little more, no one is this forum have said they would not help you if you were in need. They have only disagreed with what you have preached. But you take every bit of it as an attack like we would never help you if you were not in need.... See how I am starting to move this towards the true teachings of Christ.... You use Christ's teaching to blast everyone in here because they don't agree with what your preach. You keep taking this as a character attack and these are your own personal demons you need to deal with. I am sure you are a very nice person and probably great to have a cup of coffee with.

Just because we are called to love does not mean we accept what has been placed in front of us and move on. Is this sinking in at all, Aaron? Can you not see your approach to this is wrong and self serving?

 

[KingJ]

sorry if you took it wrong. but it was not meant for anyone in particular. i just noticed a judging issue vs love issue going on. even Jesus got angry.

Nothing you said was wrong. Jersey girl is making a major issue of nothing.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

We don't agree with what you post, and you turn around and throw enough scripture to choke a goat condemning everyone. Here is my compassion for you, sir... I am truly saddened that you are so wrapped up pushing this that you have missed the boat. We have only shown you where God's word says your doctrine is false. You have focused more on historical events about homosexual rights and couples and put a less effort in providing substantial proof that this behavior is acceptable in the eyes of Christ. I did pray for you. And I will continue to pray for you.

Hi Born-Again, if I share more Scripture and history than you are comfortable with, I suggest you go on threads with very little Scripture or history then.

That said, it is you coming onto my thread to constantly insult me and say you disagree. I already know you disagree, that's nothing new to me. I don't go on your threads or anyone else's to do that, when it's obvious we aren't going to agree.

We aren't going to agree on this issue, ever. We will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue. God bless you.

 

[Born_Again]

Hi Born-Again, if I share more Scripture and history than you are comfortable with, I suggest you go on threads with very little Scripture or history then.

That said, it is you coming onto my thread to constantly insult me and say you disagree. I already know you disagree, that's nothing new to me. I don't go on your threads or anyone else's to do that, when it's obvious we aren't going to agree.

We aren't going to agree on this issue, ever. We will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue. God bless you.

What does the history have to do with any of this? We are debating Christ's teachings. Tossing a bunch of historical events holds no relevance.. That is my point. And, it has nothing to do with my comfort level.

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

What does the history have to do with any of this? We are debating Christ's teachings. Tossing a bunch of historical events holds no relevance.. That is my point. And, it has nothing to do with my comfort level.

Hi Born_Again, this has already been discussed in great detail, but I'll share my point again. Fortunately the era of churches going to war such as the Catholic and Protestant denominations did over differences in theology are long past, and so just as I don't force or expect anyone to have to agree with me and all the many entire denominations who believe as I do on this issue, I as well am not required to agree with you.

It is un-Christian to argue merely for argument's sake when it is already known that a person is not going to agree with you, so I don't understand why you keep coming back to my thread in a seeming attempt to force me to agree with you since you already know that we disagree, when I do not do that on any of your threads, or anybody's thread.

This particular forum says it's expressly created for the open discussion of controversial issues within the Church, which this most definitely is. I've been assured by Wormwood that no one on here would ever be 'forced' to agree with someone else.

The history I shared shows that gay people contributed so much to civilization in antiquity before people suddenly started persecuting and murdering them in the name of Jesus starting in the late 4th century.

What I find sad are the double-standards and moral hypocrisy of so many churches as they pick a few verses out of the Bible to condemn people they don't understand or disagree with on theological issues, while ignoring all others that they find inconvenient to address or follow. As I said before, I have absolutely no worries about the truth of what I share here, and so will not be setting aside my beliefs that are shared by so many millions of other Christians and entire denominations who were not afraid to study this issue deeply, and set aside their ingrained orthodoxy that was based upon what we believe to be innate human prejudice, falsehoods, and extremely poor translations. We'll simply have to respectfully agree to disagree on these issues.

Out of 31,102 verses in the Bible, homosexuality is only mentioned a mere 6 times, and only refers to specific homosexual acts, within specific settings; never condemning it in general... that's really not a great ratio or basis for the argument claiming it's such a life or death issue. If it were that important, Jesus would have mentioned it Himself, and it would be warned against throughout the Bible in many verses such as other important issues are addressed.

But, it is not, and He did not. This is why so many entire denominations now agree with what I share with you.

I definitely believe that we will be held accountable for our actions when we die, so I ask anyone who cares to reflect deeply within themselves on what the account will be if it turns out that the teachings they believed and practiced in life on this subject, which have caused and still cause the torment, anguish, persecution, rejection and murder of so many millions of such teachings' victims over the past 1,700 years, which are homosexuals; souls who were and are mocked, demonized, driven to suicide, tormented, rejected, persecuted and/or killed merely over how God created them, and who they love.. end up being falsehoods created by man, and are not from God.

If you disagree with me, that's totally fine with me. We will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue, but at least can agree that Jesus is our Saviour. God bless you.

 

[KingJ]

Hi Born-Again, if I share more Scripture and history than you are comfortable with, I suggest you go on threads with very little Scripture or history then.

That said, it is you coming onto my thread to constantly insult me and say you disagree. I already know you disagree, that's nothing new to me. I don't go on your threads or anyone else's to do that, when it's obvious we aren't going to agree.

We aren't going to agree on this issue, ever. We will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue. God bless you.

Aaron, you still don't get that this is not something you can agree to disagree on.

You either accept scripture or you reject it. A Muslim would never agree to disagree on praying facing west would he?

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Aaron, you still don't get that this is not something you can agree to disagree on.

You either accept scripture or you reject it. A Muslim would never agree to disagree on praying facing west would he?

Hi King, we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree on the correct interpretation of Scripture in this matter.

 

[KingJ]

Aaron, you said you love Jesus. Can you prove this to me? How do you know, how can I tell that you love Jesus?

Most think loving Jesus is loving others. But loving others is the second commandment. So how do you fulfill the first?

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

Aaron, you said you love Jesus. Can you prove this to me? How do you know, how can I tell that you love Jesus?

Most think loving Jesus is loving others. But loving others is the second commandment. So how do you fulfill the first?

Hi King, that's between Jesus and myself.

 

[KingJ]

Aaron, we know someone loves someone else when they lay down their loves for the person they claim to love.

Love is not private. Love is not airy fairy. Love is not luvvy duvvy feelings.

If you can lay your life down for Jesus, you love Him. If you cannot, you do not love Him. If we hate what He hates, we love Him. If we love what He hates, we hate Him. You love what He hates. You do not love Him. I just want you to face this reality please.

Just be man enough to be honest and say it. ''I do not love Jesus''. Then deal with this reality.

What you do love is the idea / belief that you can sin all you want and simply say you repent. What you do love is that all you need to do to go to heaven is say ''I believe in Jesus''...then really repeat it over and over until some euphoria of the idea of God takes place somewhere in you.

I want you to think about the reality of God hating something so much (homosexuality) that He considers it acceptable to separate those who He loves so much (you) for all eternity.

Now please never ever tell yourself that you love Jesus. Unless you are prepared to work out your salvation on your knees in FEAR and TREMBLING Phil 2:12....DENYING your flesh and its desires Matt 16:24.....AVOIDING ALL appearance of evil 1 Thess 5:22....loving what God loves and HATING what God hates.

Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil. Cling to what is good.

You can say you love Jesus, but it is not sincere until you HATE what He HATES.

Hi King, that's between Jesus and myself.

So talking publicly about your private sex choices that can stumble many is fine but not your love for Jesus that can encourage / exhort / save many?

 

[jerseygirl]

KingJ,

sorry if you took it wrong. but it was not meant for anyone in particular. i just noticed a judging issue vs love issue going on. even Jesus got angry.

Nothing you said was wrong. Jersey girl is making a major issue of nothing.


What exactly is your problem with me? What have I done to cause you such anger that you would waste your time to even post this? That someone else was speaking to me in a kind way has angered you this much? He didn't even say he said something wrong, he said he was sorry if I took it the wrong way… It's interesting to me that of all that's on this thread, the statement above would bother you so much to even comment on it. My guess is that you have a problem with women...

Based on this kind comment, i feel like I'm back in high school and dealing with the online bully. You are treating me in a way that goes against our Lords teaching.

Are you trying to bully me into not speaking? I can see how others here would be afraid to speak up about anything in fear of continually being attacked by you… But I'm sure that you'll somehow rationalize your behavior wrapped in some hateful tone. I thank God that he is with me and that He knows the truth behind what you say.

Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

.DENYING your flesh and its desires Matt 16:24.....AVOIDING ALL appearance of evil 1 Thess 5:22....loving what God loves and HATING what God hates. exactly! you are not practicing all you preach!

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

So talking publicly about your private sex choices that can stumble many is fine but not your love for Jesus that can encourage / exhort / save many?

I've never once talked publicly about my private sex life or choices here. That said, again... we'll have to just disagree on these theological matters.