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Featured Why Christian leaders defend Perpetual Virginity of Mary?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by theefaith, Oct 15, 2020.

  1. theefaith

    theefaith Active Member

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    Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

    Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649)

    Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

    The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

    And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

    Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

    Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

    Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

    (Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

    Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
    (The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

    Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    (A son singular) (does James save his people?)

    Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

    Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
    (The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

    Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
    (A son, singular)

    Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    (This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

    Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    (Her son is God)

    Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

    2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

    Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

    Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

    First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

    Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

    They are not the children of Mary!

    Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
    (One son, singular)

    James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
    Matt 10:2-3

    In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

    Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

    Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

    The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They may be brothers and sisters but they are simply not the children of Blessed Mary ever Virgin mother of God!

    Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

    Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

    “You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (ancient writer)

    Martin Luther

    It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

    John Calvin

    (On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

    [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

    Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

    John Wesley

    ‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


    St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

    “In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

    “It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

    “Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

    St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

    "Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
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    For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

    “Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

    “Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

    “Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

    “We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

    The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!
     
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  2. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    What is the big deal about Mary? She was as afflicted by the Sin Nature as anybody else, and no doubt had to confess her sins regularly. She is not our hero, but someone to admire as a faithful saint. She is noted as "Mother of God" strictly for the purpose of proving Jesus was divine--not to make Mary "Queen of Heaven." We should not worship people, nor idols, nor images, nor anything other that Deity Himself.
     
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  3. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    There has been countless number of threads on this forum about Mary, the Catholic Church, and The Pope, and anything and everything associated with the Catholic faith.
    Every one of them turned into an ugly shouting match amongst members.
    If this one does the same thing then I question whether this is of God or is it of Satan to provoke division and strife among the brothers and sisters here.
    What you have stated in your OP has already been discussed in another thread just like this one.
    So let's see where this goes.....I think I already know.
     
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  4. historyb

    historyb Well-Known Member

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    The problem is it isn't from Satan it's from evangelicals who don't like someone believing different then they do and not knowing real Church history
     
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  5. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    And now it begins.....the fist stone has been thrown.:rolleyes:
     
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  6. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Here we go again.
    Catholics do NOT worship Mary.
    Queen of Heaven is not mention in the OP.
    Whether she had a "Sin Nature" or not is also not mentioned in the OP.

    Discussions might work better if people kept to the topic rather than dragging their pet objections to Catholic teaching.
     
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  7. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    I was going to say "oh no, not again."

    There was a thread like this not long ago.
     
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  8. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    Well I believe the same member started the same topic. The other thread was closed and I believe this one won't survive very long either.
     
  9. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    I believe Mary was a Virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, but whether if she remained a perpetual virgin or not is an entirely different question, the birth of Jesus was a miraculous supernatural birth though.

    Luke 1:31-35
    31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

    35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you,and the power of the Most Highwill overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.


    Now here are the verses that suggest Jesus had earthly brothers.

    Matthew 12:46 and 47
    46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

    Of course we then know what Jesus goes on to reply after that. But verse 46 and 47 to point towards Jesus having half brothers.

    Jesus's reply.
    48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said,Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Now for an interesting question here, do verse 46 and 47 suggest that Jesus's brothers were from Mary?

    Well I am part Chinese, and have Chinese-Malaysian born reletives and a Chinese born Grandma, in the Cantonese Chinese language we call our cousins our brothers or sisters. For example I would call one of my older cousins from mum's side in Cantonese "go-go" which means older brother or "jie-jie" which means older sister.

    Now in saying this could brothers in verse 46 and 47 refer to Jesus's cousins.

    If so, it may mean Mary could have very well stayed a virgin.

    Now there is something to think about. ;)
     
  10. theefaith

    theefaith Active Member

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    you are right only God can be worshiped adored or offered sacrifice

    gen 3:15 enmity none of his works are found in her Lk 1:28
    Full of grace
    The Lord is with Her
    Found favor with God (the grace of salvation lost by adam)
    And she was declared blessed by the angel before becoming the mother of our savior and before consenting to our salvation
    She was humble and faithful Lk 1:45 & 1:48

    in the line of king David the mother of the king is always the king, and since Jesus is the king of heaven Mary is the queen of heaven
     
  11. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    Matthew seems to say there are brothers and sisters. Theologians agree that the book of James was written by Jesus half brother James.
    Mary and Joseph had at least 6 other children after they had Jesus, but when the Romans overthrew Jerusalem in 70 CE the genealogical records of the Jews was lost and it is impossible to accurately trace Jewish lineage back to Jesus day.

    Matthew 13:55 - Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us?

     
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  12. theefaith

    theefaith Active Member

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    without an opening statement and discussion how can we ever come to biblical understanding and then there is the ignorant who need to about what the church has taught for 2000 yrs
     
  13. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    Didn't you start a thread about this already? And your opening statement...
    The Perpetual Virginity of Mary?
    Any thoughts?
     
  14. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    Just thought I would put my two cents in though, and point out that in Chinese customs, brothers and sisters also include your cousins.

    I am not too sure about Hebrew customs though.
     
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  15. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Your point was already answered in the OP.
    But to make it again, nowhere does scripture say that these "brothers and sisters" were children of Mary, and there is biblical and historical evidence that they were not.
    Do you want me to go through it again?
     
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  16. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    It isn't relevant to my faith in Him and His teaching on spiritual matters....so no thanks.
     
  17. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    To say Mary is the "queen of heaven" sounds very much like Mary's deification! I would back down from that view completely. If nothing else it is extremely misleading. But I don't believe it's in the least true. Nobody in the Kingdom of God, among men, will cause them to rule over one another. Only God has that role. If we would be great in God's Kingdom, we should learn to serve one another--not rule over them.

    There is a coming rule in the Kingdom of God with respect to the saints. We will rule over the earth, while it remains infected with sin. Once we are glorified at the return of Christ will will impose righteous order on earth to some degree, because there will be those on earth still infected with the sin nature.

    And we will condemn Satan and his angels for having misled the nations for so many years, agreeing with Christ, who has condemned them to the pit or to outer darkness. We do have a say in this, and will agree with Christ's judgment. Mary has no role above anybody else in this regard.
     
  18. theefaith

    theefaith Active Member

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    No Ester as queen
    David’s mother was queen
    Solomon’s mother was queen and there not divine, Mary is not queen by nature but by being the mother of the king who is divine and has a royal kingdom

    she is our queen and mother
    And we too
    Revelation 5:10
    And hast made us unto our God kings andpriests: and we shall reign on the earth.
     
  19. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I'm not dragging "Queen of Heaven" into the topic--I was raised Lutheran, and Mary's designation as "Queen of Heaven" has everything to do with Mariology, which is what the topic obviously meant to express. Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, and her exaltation over other saints go hand in glove with respect to this topic. Your attempt to avoid this is pure self-serving, in my opinion--you are obviously bent on supporting Mariology, one step at a time.

    When you say "Catholics do not worship Mary," how can you know this? Do you know what is in the heart of every Catholic? I believe Mariology is a form of idolatry and does invite Mary worship. It's not only unbiblical--it is wrong.
     
  20. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    No, Mary is not your "mother!" lol!
     
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