Why Christianity?

[Selene]

If you want to talk about historical records, there is very little genuine historical record of Jesus, outside of the Bible (a record which was made by his followers, hardly the most credible.)

Of course, His followers would make those records. Yet, the fact that you consider them of little worth is not surprising to me when taken into account your bias of the Christian religion and lack of objectivity.. The fact that the Christian religion exists since the first century is testimony enough that Christ did exist. If Christ did not exist, neither would Christianity. As I said, one cannot ignore history.

It is a historical fact that there were many Christian martyrs of the first centuries because these martyrs were witnesses to the truth of the Resurrection. It is a historical fact that there were no pagan martyrs. It is a historical fact that a man named Jesus once walked on this earth 2000 years ago, bringing about the Christian religion. You can argue all you want whether He was God or not, but the testimony of the Christian martyrs of the first centuries speaks strongly for it. It is a historical fact that in the first three centuries after His death, Christian Churches in both the east and west sprung up among the Gentiles. It is a historical fact that there were 12 Apostles plus St. Paul and St. Barnabus who did spread this Christian religion to the Gentile world, and there are historical records of these Apostles.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Of course, His followers would make those records. Yet, the fact that you consider them of little worth is not surprising to me when taken into account your bias of the Christian religion and lack of objectivity.. The fact that the Christian religion exists since the first century is testimony enough that Christ did exist. If Christ did not exist, neither would Christianity. As I said, one cannot ignore history.

It is a historical fact that there were many Christian martyrs of the first centuries because these martyrs were witnesses to the truth of the Resurrection. It is a historical fact that there were no pagan martyrs. It is a historical fact that a man named Jesus once walked on this earth 2000 years ago, bringing about the Christian religion. You can argue all you want whether He was God or not, but the testimony of the Christian martyrs of the first centuries speaks strongly for it. It is a historical fact that in the first three centuries after His death, Christian Churches in both the east and west sprung up among the Gentiles. It is a historical fact that there were 12 Apostles plus St. Paul and St. Barnabus who did spread this Christian religion to the Gentile world, and there are historical records of these Apostles.

Hypatia was a pagan who lived in the 400s and was murdered by a mob of Christians. Seems to me that there are intact pagan martyrs. And I'm sure plenty more who were never recorded in history.

 

[Selene]

Hypatia was a pagan who lived in the 400s and was murdered by a mob of Christians. Seems to me that there are intact pagan martyrs. And I'm sure plenty more who were never recorded in history.

According to history, there are unsure of her death. One report says that she was murdered Nitrian monks while another account says that she was murdered by an Alexandrian mob. (See the weblink below).

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/history/Biographies/Hypatia.html

As to why she was murdered, it was not because of her pagan religion; therefore, she is not a martyr. (See weblink below).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia#cite_note-8

 

[Lux Veritatis]

According to history, there are unsure of her death. One report says that she was murdered Nitrian monks while another account says that she was murdered by an Alexandrian mob. (See the weblink below).

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/history/Biographies/Hypatia.html

As to why she was murdered, it was not because of her pagan religion; therefore, she is not a martyr. (See weblink below).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia#cite_note-8

The whole point is that you cannot claim there are no pagan martyrs because we honestly don't know, likely because it's not in written record. No one felt the need to record every person that died and why. Just as I'm sure many Christians were martyred and we'll never know about it because it wasn't recorded. People have always died in the name of their faith since the dawn of time, it's not unique to Christianity.

Of course, His followers would make those records. Yet, the fact that you consider them of little worth is not surprising to me when taken into account your bias of the Christian religion and lack of objectivity.. The fact that the Christian religion exists since the first century is testimony enough that Christ did exist. If Christ did not exist, neither would Christianity. As I said, one cannot ignore history.

It is a historical fact that there were many Christian martyrs of the first centuries because these martyrs were witnesses to the truth of the Resurrection. It is a historical fact that there were no pagan martyrs. It is a historical fact that a man named Jesus once walked on this earth 2000 years ago, bringing about the Christian religion. You can argue all you want whether He was God or not, but the testimony of the Christian martyrs of the first centuries speaks strongly for it. It is a historical fact that in the first three centuries after His death, Christian Churches in both the east and west sprung up among the Gentiles. It is a historical fact that there were 12 Apostles plus St. Paul and St. Barnabus who did spread this Christian religion to the Gentile world, and there are historical records of these Apostles.

In response to the rest of your post, Christ didn't necessarily need to exist for Christianity to exist. The existence of pagan religions and modern religions points to that and i'm certain not every part of every one is completely true, yet they still exist.

I didn't say I completely disregard the Bible as evidence of the history of Christianity. However, it is very hard to objectively prove the veracity of a religion based only on the records by the group itself, especially considering the earliest written records occurred 40 − 60 years AFTER Jesus. You'd think if a miracle working God walked among humanity it would be considered important to record that.

That being said, I don't dispute the historical truth of the existence of Christianity. But you need to remember that there is a difference between provable fact and your faith, since by definition faith doesn't need proof. Not everyone excepts baseless conjecture as reasonable enough to convince them of something.

 

[Selene]

The whole point is that you cannot claim there are no pagan martyrs because we honestly don't know, likely because it's not in written record. No one felt the need to record every person that died and why. Just as I'm sure many Christians were martyred and we'll never know about it because it wasn't recorded. People have always died in the name of their faith since the dawn of time, it's not unique to Christianity.



In response to the rest of your post, Christ didn't necessarily need to exist for Christianity to exist. The existence of pagan religions and modern religions points to that and i'm certain not every part of every one is completely true, yet they still exist.

I didn't say I completely disregard the Bible as evidence of the history of Christianity. However, it is very hard to objectively prove the veracity of a religion based only on the records by the group itself, especially considering the earliest written records occurred 40 − 60 years AFTER Jesus. You'd think if a miracle working God walked among humanity it would be considered important to record that.

That being said, I don't dispute the historical truth of the existence of Christianity. But you need to remember that there is a difference between provable fact and your faith, since by definition faith doesn't need proof. Not everyone excepts baseless conjecture as reasonable enough to convince them of something.

The names of many of the Christians martyrs were recorded. Names such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Paul, Peter, and many others were recorded by Christians and feasts were honored in their name, which the Church carried in her traditions. It is a well-known historical fact that Christians were being killed in the arenas of Rome, and these events were recorded not only by Christians, but also by Jewish scholars and pagan rulers. You cannot find pagan martyrs simply because it never happened. Just as you cannot find any records of same sex marriage in ancient times simply because there were no same sex marriage.

There's a big difference between those pagan religions and Christianity. As I pointed out to you before, the first century Christian martyrs are strong testimonies that Christ existed. These martyrs staked their lives on it. As I said, there are only two religions that have true martyrdom, which has been recorded in the annuals of history....and these two religions believe in the same God.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

The names of many of the Christians martyrs were recorded. Names such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Paul, Peter, and many others were recorded by Christians and feasts were honored in their name, which the Church carried in her traditions. It is a well-known historical fact that Christians were being killed in the arenas of Rome, and these events were recorded not only by Christians, but also by Jewish scholars and pagan rulers. You cannot find pagan martyrs simply because it never happened. Just as you cannot find any records of same sex marriage in ancient times simply because there were no same sex marriage.

There's a big difference between those pagan religions and Christianity. As I pointed out to you before, the first century Christian martyrs are strong testimonies that Christ existed. These martyrs staked their lives on it. As I said, there are only two religions that have true martyrdom, which has been recorded in the annuals of history....and these two religions believe in the same God.

Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you just pick key words and run with it? Many people of all kinds of religions have died for their faith. You do know, and I imagine you do, that written record is a fairly new thing in history. Just because it's not recorded doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Anyway, just for funzies, look up some of these people:

• Julian the Apostate — Roman emperor who tried to bring polytheism back, was killed for it.
• Olvir of Egg — Killed under orders of the King of Norway for continuing to practice his pagan rituals.
• The Saxons who were beheaded by Charlemagne in 782 for refusing to convert to Christianity.

And how about all those "infidels" who died in the crusades who fought for their faith against the Christians?

Anyway, the point is, all kinds of people die for their religion, Christians aren't alone in that.

 

[IanLC]

Mr. Lux Veritatis, I can not argue with you on your beliefs or mine because you see things differently. You ask us to explain apart from the Holy Bible why we believe yet this shows something that you do not know. I am coming respectful in saying this and this is from me you can not understand the Truth of Christianity because you are blind to it. We can preach, yell, fuss and whatever or even present solid evidence but until the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to the Truth of Christianity there is nothing you can do. For it is the Holy Spirit that will lead into all truth and that convicts and converts not us. Study the Holy Spirit and then you may began to see "Why" and "How" Christianity is different. For He the Holy Ghost is the only way you can be drawn only if He allows it and opens your eyes!
Abundant Blessings.
UHCAIan

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Mr. Lux Veritatis, I can not argue with you on your beliefs or mine because you see things differently. You ask us to explain apart from the Holy Bible why we believe yet this shows something that you do not know. I am coming respectful in saying this and this is from me you can not understand the Truth of Christianity because you are blind to it. We can preach, yell, fuss and whatever or even present solid evidence but until the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to the Truth of Christianity there is nothing you can do. For it is the Holy Spirit that will lead into all truth and that convicts and converts not us. Study the Holy Spirit and then you may began to see "Why" and "How" Christianity is different. For He the Holy Ghost is the only way you can be drawn only if He allows it and opens your eyes!
Abundant Blessings.
UHCAIan

From a former Christian, believe me, I'm not blind to it. I did, however, overcome it.

 

[IanLC]

From a former Christian, believe me, I'm not blind to it. I did, however, overcome it.

Well then there it is there is no need to further argue. You know where you stand and you also know that many of us will not move from the Faith. No need for further discussion. Your not blind you have just refused the Truth or in your words "overcome". I respect that for as a person with free will you have that choice.

 

[Angelina]

Hello Lux

From a former Christian, believe me, I'm not blind to it. I did, however, overcome it.

Then why, dear one, are you here? :huh:

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Hello Lux



Then why, dear one, are you here? :huh:

Why not? I can always learn, always amend my "beliefs." The world is a big place and there are a lot of ideas to be discovered.

 

[Angelina]

^_^ lovely!

 

[Selene]

Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you just pick key words and run with it? Many people of all kinds of religions have died for their faith. You do know, and I imagine you do, that written record is a fairly new thing in history. Just because it's not recorded doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Anyway, just for funzies, look up some of these people:

• Julian the Apostate — Roman emperor who tried to bring polytheism back, was killed for it.
• Olvir of Egg — Killed under orders of the King of Norway for continuing to practice his pagan rituals.
• The Saxons who were beheaded by Charlemagne in 782 for refusing to convert to Christianity.

And how about all those "infidels" who died in the crusades who fought for their faith against the Christians?

Anyway, the point is, all kinds of people die for their religion, Christians aren't alone in that.

I did read it. You gave the same excuse that the gay activists gave me. They also told me that gay marriages were very common in ancient times, but it was just not recorded. Julian the Apostate was killed by an enemy, and I can't even find Olvir of Egg on the Internet. Never heard of him. The Saxon Wars and the Crusades are not martyrdoms. They're wars fought mainly for land. According to Heritage History:

The Saxons were not far advanced in civilization. The hatred which they entertained against the Germans, who had been converted to Christianity by Boniface and other missionaries, had caused them to break off friendly intercourse with their ancestral associates. They worshipped Odin and other heathen divinities in their forests, as of old. Charlemagne conducted his campaign against them, not so much in the interest of religion as to overthrow the power of a dangerous neighbor, before he went to Italy to subjugate Desiderius. He invaded Saxony and occupied Eresburg, in the vicinity of which was Irminsul, the mystic idol revered by the Saxons. Its significance is still doubtful. Some maintain that it typified the world-ash tree Ygdrasil, whose trunk, the Germans believed, was rooted in the underworld and whose branches shadowed Oin'sd palace, Walhalla. Others contend that it was a memorial of Arminius who freed Germany from the Roman yoke. The Irminsul was demolished by the Franks. The Saxons at last sued; for peace, which Charlemagne granted after they had given him twelve hostages. Then he retired with his army.

http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage-books.php?Dir=books&author=upton&book=charlemagne&story=saxon

Why not? I can always learn, always amend my "beliefs." The world is a big place and there are a lot of ideas to be discovered.

Oh really?? So, first you were a Christian and then you felt enlightened to be an atheist. And of course, you are in a Christian website thinking that you can learn and amend your beliefs???? What happened? Having doubts about atheism??

 

[Lux Veritatis]

I did read it. You gave the same excuse that the gay activists gave me. They also told me that gay marriages were very common in ancient times, but it was just not recorded. Julian the Apostate was killed by an enemy, and I can't even find Olvir of Egg on the Internet. Never heard of him. The Saxon Wars and the Crusades are not martyrdoms. They're wars fought mainly for land. According to Heritage History:


http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage-books.php?Dir=books&author=upton&book=charlemagne&story=saxon



Oh really?? So, first you were a Christian and then you felt enlightened to be an atheist. And of course, you are in a Christian website thinking that you can learn and amend your beliefs???? What happened? Having doubts about atheism??

Many of the Christian martyrs were killed over reasons other than religion, too. You cannot deny that people of all faiths have died over their religion. Christians are not alone in this fact and to claim so makes you seem very ignorant of the world around you.

From that same site:

Charlemagne well knew that the roots of the Saxon animosity were grounded in their heathen religion. He determined to eradicate it by force. His scheme was to pardon only those who consented to be baptized and to remain faithful to the Christian faith. Death should be the penalty of participation in the heathen service. Forcible measures of this kind, imposed for the purpose of changing ideas and sentiments, are improper, it is true; but under existing circumstances it seemed the only preventive of their constant uprisings. It also promised to be of great advantage, as the younger generation would be influenced by the abandonment of the heathen religion to become loyal.

And in regards to learning—I don't know all the answers and I admit that. I can always learn more about anything and I'm choosing to learn more about why people believe in Christianity.

 

[Selene]

Many of the Christian martyrs were killed over reasons other than religion, too. You cannot deny that people of all faiths have died over their religion. Christians are not alone in this fact and to claim so makes you seem very ignorant of the world around you.

From that same site:

And in regards to learning—I don't know all the answers and I admit that. I can always learn more about anything and I'm choosing to learn more about why people believe in Christianity.

My friend, if you had read more into history, you would have known that the Saxons chose to convert rather than give up their life for their pagan religions....unlike the Christians who chose death. Didn't you know that the Apostles spread Christianity so quickly. It was because the Gentiles gave up their religion so easily.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

My friend, if you had read more into history, you would have known that the Saxons chose to convert rather than give up their life for their pagan religions....unlike the Christians who chose death. Didn't you know that the Apostles spread Christianity so quickly. It was because the Gentiles gave up their religion so easily.

Except the ones who didn't convert and were murdered. I'm not arguing that many over history didn't chose to convert rather than die. But, you are deluded if you think only Christians have died for their faith. Just as many have denied their faith to avoid persecution and death. It's human nature and believe me, if God exists, I don't think he'd fault you for trying to conserve your life.

 

[Selene]

Except the ones who didn't convert and were murdered. I'm not arguing that many over history didn't chose to convert rather than die. But, you are deluded if you think only Christians have died for their faith. Just as many have denied their faith to avoid persecution and death. It's human nature and believe me, if God exists, I don't think he'd fault you for trying to conserve your life.

And who were those who were murdered?? Where are their names? The Christian martyrs are recorded. There are no pagan martyrs.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

And who were those who were murdered?? Where are their names? The Christian martyrs are recorded. There are no pagan martyrs.

They don't need to be named. It's a historical fact that many Saxons, over 4,000, were killed because they remained pagan. Besides, I gave you a list of a few names already. I don't know why you are fighting this. Does the fact that religion was important to non-Christians somehow devalue your own faith?

Here are some more names:

• Raud the Strong (900 AD) was martyred for refusing to accept baptism and the Christian God.
• Aelfwyn (the Saxon) — one of the many saxons. She said that she could no more forsake her gods than she could swim on land.
• Eyvind Kelve (965 – May 6, 995) "Another one of Olaf I's victims. Eyvind refused to convert. He was pricked with hot pins, had his fingers broken, his back scored and fruit and salt poured into the wounds, and still refused to consent to baptism. He was deprived of food and sleep, and when he still refused, Olaf declared that if he would not take the waters of baptism, the waters would take him, and drowned."

 

[Selene]

They don't need to be named. It's a historical fact that many Saxons, over 4,000, were killed because they remained pagan. Besides, I gave you a list of a few names already. I don't know why you are fighting this. Does the fact that religion was important to non-Christians somehow devalue your own faith?

Here are some more names:

• Raud the Strong (900 AD) was martyred for refusing to accept baptism and the Christian God.
• Aelfwyn (the Saxon) — one of the many saxons. She said that she could no more forsake her gods than she could swim on land.
• Eyvind Kelve (965 – May 6, 995) "Another one of Olaf I's victims. Eyvind refused to convert. He was pricked with hot pins, had his fingers broken, his back scored and fruit and salt poured into the wounds, and still refused to consent to baptism. He was deprived of food and sleep, and when he still refused, Olaf declared that if he would not take the waters of baptism, the waters would take him, and drowned."

Those were during the Saxon wars when the king invaded the country. They were at war and the rebels were captured and killed. Not the same as the Christian martyrs who were not at war. A large majority of the Saxons converted......not the same as the Christians. A large majority of the Christians did not convert.

All you're doing is picking wars that are fought for land, and religion was used as an excuse to get those lands.


Here is an example of an anti-Christian website (most likely an atheist webslite) stating that in history Christians created "death camps" for pagans.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm

Now, was there actually a death camp created by Christians for pagans? The answer is no. There is no archaeological evidence of a pagan death camp. Furthermore, the person who created this website, falsely stated that the Edict of Milan legalized Christianity as the official religion. Anyone who reads the Edict of Milan would know that it declared freedom of religion to all people. It is actually the first official document in the Roman empire that granted freedom of religion to everyone. So, the pagans could worship as they pleased. Now, why did he twisted that around? Because it did not fit in with his version of history.

Below is the truth about these so-called death camps.

http://www.oodegr.com/english/paganismos/diogmoi/skythopolis1.htm

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Those were during the Saxon wars when the king invaded the country. They were at war and the rebels were captured and killed. Not the same as the Christian martyrs who were not at war. A large majority of the Saxons converted......not the same as the Christians. A large majority of the Christians did not convert.

All you're doing is picking wars that are fought for land, and religion was used as an excuse to get those lands.

Eyvind Kelve wasn't a victim of a land fight. Nor were many others. All you are doing is focusing on the examples I give that could possibly have other explanations. I'm sure you've heard of the word "multifactorial" and that things never have a single cause?

The real question, though, is who cares? Someone dying for something doesn't prove anything. You can list off a whole bunch of Christian martyrs (which are mostly Catholic saints) and I could poke just as many holes in the legends surrounding them.

But it doesn't matter. You are positing that people will only face death for a belief if the belief is true (and true = Christian belief), and you are claiming that since (in your opinion) paganism isn't true that no one could have died for it and that if they did, it wasn't over the belief but over something else. However, what you haven't done is proven why that must necessarily be true. We can argue all century about whether people have died for other beliefs, but that doesn't prove anything.

Please enlighten me as to why only Christian martyrs are true martyrs and why this matters to the proposed truth of Christianity.