Why Christians Call Mary the Mother of God.

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David1701

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You'll get a reply anyway.
Girls like to have the last word.
LOL!

I only posted that no reply was necessary from you, because you had done that and I wanted to show you what it's like to be on the receiving end of such silly comments. You are perfectly welcome to reply.

You are a follower of Calvin.
No, I'm not; and I'm not the subject of this discussion.

You are of the refomred denominations.
No, I'm not; and I'm not the subject of this discussion.

The reformed denomination believes in calviinism and teaches TULIP.
So-called "Calvinism" is more than just T.U.L.I.P., which was not from Calvin anyway (it was an acronym from the biblical responses of the Synod of Dordtrecht, to the five points of the Remonstrants (disciples of Arminius)).

Nowhere does the bible use the words GOD IS SOVEREIGN.
Then it's just as well that no-one has claimed that, isn't it? The sovereignty of God does not depend upon the wording that you have chosen.


This is understood by every Christian nonetheless.
I wish that were true...

The difference is that you don't understand like every other Christian does.
Emotional responses like that contribute nothing to a sensible discussion.


I know what you believe...
and it's not good.
But this isn't the place.
We'll meet again.
You certainly don't know all that I believe (you might know a little; but, I'm not the subject of this discussion).

I'll say this:
Catholicism does not change the nature of God.
what YOU believe does.
Romanism tells people that God turns a flour and water wafer into God, which people are then to worship.

It tells them that God sends Christians to "Purgatory" when they die, to get the rest of their sins purged, thus implying that the cross was ineffectual.

It tells them that God saves idolaters in false religions (even atheists!), if they do the best they can with the light they supposedly have.

It tells them that the Lord Jesus Christ is not the only mediator, but all their priests are too.

etc., etc.


Really?
You think that 83% of all Chrisitans are wrong and 17% are right about NOT needing good works to be saved?
Argumentum ad populum is a well known logical fallacy. It relies upon numbers of adherents to a particular viewpoint, rather than evidence.

I'd go with the 83%.
I wouldn't take the chance.
I'd go with the Bible.

Let's say 100 persons are looking at a color.
83% say it's blue
17% say it's grey

What color would YOU think it is if you couldn't see it?
I wouldn't know, since I couldn't see it.

Are the people telling the truth?

Are some of them colour blind?

Is the colour blue-grey, so that it could be described either way?




Like I said....not here.
However Jesus DID say this.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
And this verse is, of course, absolutely true. Those whom God has saved bear good fruit, some thirty, some sixty and some an hundredfold.


That's for sure.
That does not remove the fact that good works are necessary.
Cart -> Horse

Good works are the result of, and thus evidence of, salvation.

Maybe we can discuss one day.
 

David1701

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I never said it was only Mary's doing.

You said:

"Co-redemptrix" or "Co-redeemer" would mean one who helped in our redemption, so it's entirely unsurprising that these titles are viewed as blasphemous."

In reply, I'm actually asking:

So, for example, you believe Mary did not help bring about the redemption of mankind through Her obedience to God by accepting becoming the mother of God the Word Incarnate, the Redeemer, into the world by conceiving and giving birth to Him so that He could fulfill His mission?
Why single out Mariam? What about her father and mother; and their fathers and mothers; and everyone else whom God used to bring about the prophesied circumstances of our Lord's birth, life, death and resurrection?

Why capitalise "Mother", in "Mother of God", as if it were a title?
 

David1701

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I capitalize "Mother" when referencing Mary out of reverence and respect for Her.

The title "Mother of God" does not refer to the Holy Trinity: God the Father (Thought), God the Son (Word), and God the Holy Spirit, because only one Person of the Holy Trinity became human: God the Word.

Jesus is God the Word Incarnate: "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." You accept that too, yes? Mary is His mother as Scripture repeatedly states. Elizabeth was the first to call Mary "mother of my Lord (God)", because She conceived and gave birth to Him, and Thomas rightly called Jesus "my Lord and my God!". Hopefully you accept that too. If so, how is it not accurate to call Mary the mother of God?
Mariam has no titles. She is not the "Queen of Heaven" (the title of a pagan goddess from the O.T.). She is not "Mediatrix" or "Co-redemptrix", or any other titles created by the traditions of men.
 

Moonwood

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Why single out Mariam?

Because Mary is the topic right now and you said:

"Co-redemptrix" or "Co-redeemer" would mean one who helped in our redemption, so it's entirely unsurprising that these titles are viewed as blasphemous."

In reply, I'm actually asking:

So, for example, you believe Mary did not help bring about the redemption of mankind through Her obedience to God by accepting becoming the mother of God the Word Incarnate, the Redeemer, into the world by conceiving and giving birth to Him so that He could fulfill His mission?

What about her father and mother; and their fathers and mothers; and everyone else whom God used to bring about the prophesied circumstances of our Lord's birth, life, death and resurrection?

Based on your understanding of what the prefix "co-" means, what do you think the answer is?

Why capitalise "Mother", in "Mother of God", as if it were a title?

The word "mother" in itself functions as a formal and legal title, as well as a biological and social description...

As for why I capitalize it when referring to Mary, its out respect and reverence for Her.
 

Moonwood

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As I've posted previously, Mariam was the mother of God-manifest-in-the-flesh, not God generally; and, a point of contention with the R.C. poster is that he capitalises "Mother" (in "Mother of God"), as if it were some kind of title.

I see David left out how I told him "Mother of God" doesn't mean Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit as well like he assumes, only Mother of God the Word Incarnate. Is it deliberate because he WANTS to find a problem where there is none?
 
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David1701

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Because Mary is the topic right now and you said:

"Co-redemptrix" or "Co-redeemer" would mean one who helped in our redemption, so it's entirely unsurprising that these titles are viewed as blasphemous."

In reply, I'm actually asking:

So, for example, you believe Mary did not help bring about the redemption of mankind through Her obedience to God by accepting becoming the mother of God the Word Incarnate, the Redeemer, into the world by conceiving and giving birth to Him so that He could fulfill His mission?



Based on your understanding of what the prefix "co-" means, what do you think the answer is?



The word "mother" in itself functions as a formal and legal title, as well as a biological and social description...

As for why I capitalize it when referring to Mary, its out respect and reverence for Her.
<sigh>
Never mind.
 

Moonwood

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In the flesh she gave birth to Jesus so the Word of God could take upon Himself flesh and come in to this world to go to the Cross and be High Priest over the New Covenant. That's the end of Mary's calling. After watching over Jesus growing to be an adult, she's out.

So yes she was Jesus' momma according to the flesh but she is not equal with Jesus, she is not co-savior or co-redemptrix, and as someone who has passed away from this earth she cannot pray to God for people or be in contact with people here on earth and she's not God's mother as in God answers to her.

It's very telling that catholics don't have a direct relationship with the Father thru Jesus Christ and they are always looking for someone to go through to get to God such as Mary, or their priest, or some "saint". And to be fair many protestants are the same way because they call their pastor or some church official anytime they have a problem to go thru them to talk to God or ask God for help.

The doctrines catholics follow make Mary in to an idol and catholics have gone far beyond what is written in God's Word which they justify by claiming they go by their own made up religious traditions which are not found in God's Word as though the Lord totally forgot to put their religious traditions in His Word.

I'm friends with several catholics and they are not actually born again and do not know the Lord Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. What they have is their own religious traditions that are not based on the doctrine of Christ. I mean they are nice people and all, but there are nice people in all the other false religions too so being a nice person and meaning well does not mean someone knows the Lord.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The catholics do not follow the doctrine of Christ by their own admission. They instead follow their own religious traditions known as catholicism which is not taught by Jesus and His Apostles. Protestants do the same thing in that they follow reformed theology rather than the doctrine of Christ so they too have their own dead religious traditions just like the catholics.

I think you're bringing up a number of issues that are separate from the point I've been making.

The question is much simpler:

Who was Mary the mother of?

You acknowledge that Mary is Jesus' biological mother according to the flesh. I agree.

But Jesus is not a human person separate from the Word of God.

Scripture says:

"The Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

It does not say the Word became united to a separate human person named Jesus.

Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, says:

"And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

And Thomas says to Jesus:

"My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

So the same Jesus whom Mary bore is the same Jesus whom Thomas calls God.

Therefore, when Christians call Mary "Mother of God," they are not saying Mary created God's divine nature, existed before God, or has authority over God.

They are simply affirming that the child She bore was God the Son incarnate.

Whether Catholics have additional doctrines about Mary is a separate discussion. The issue I've been discussing is the identity of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is God incarnate, and Mary is His mother, then how can She be only "the mother of the man Jesus" without separating the man Jesus from the divine Son?
 
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Moonwood

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Placing anything or anyone between the petitioner and God is idolatry ... For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

If "placing anyone between the petitioner and God" is idolatry, then asking fellow Christians on earth to pray for you would also be idolatry.

After all, when you ask another believer to pray for you, you are asking that person to intercede with God on your behalf. Yet Scripture explicitly encourages believers to pray for one another (1 Timothy 2:1; James 5:16).

Therefore, 1 Timothy 2:5 cannot mean that every form of intercession by another believer violates Christ's unique mediation. Otherwise Paul's instruction to offer "supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others would contradict his statement only a few verses later.

The question is not whether others may intercede. Scripture clearly teaches that they may.

The question is whether death removes a believer from the body of Christ and prevents that believer from interceding for fellow Christians. Since those in Christ are alive with Him, that is the point that must be demonstrated.

Catholics do not place Mary between themselves and God as a rival mediator. Catholics believe all prayer and grace come through Christ alone. Asking Mary to pray for us is understood in the same sense as asking any other member of Christ's body to pray for us: a participation in Christ's mediation, not a replacement of it.
 

Moonwood

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Roman Catholicism has a mediatorial priesthood...

Catholics do not believe priests replace Christ as mediator. Priests minister by participation in Christ's priesthood. Christ remains the one mediator between God and man.

Otherwise, by the same reasoning, every pastor who preaches, baptizes, counsels, or prays for others would be acting as a rival mediator to Christ.

What do you think Jesus spent three years doing with the Twelve? He wasn't merely creating a loose association of independent believers. He appointed apostles, gave them authority to teach, baptize, forgive sins (John 20:21-23), celebrate the Eucharist ("Do this in remembrance of me"), and shepherd His flock.

The real question is not whether Christ established ministers within His Church, but whether that authority ended with the Apostles or continued through their successors.

A ministerial priesthood does not compete with Christ's mediation any more than a pastor's ministry competes with Christ's mediation. All Christian ministry derives its authority from Christ and participates in His work; none of it replaces Him.
 

Marvelloustime

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The key to knowing whether its our pride , their pride or pride itself .
We better open our bible and get real acquainted with such pure and lovely words for our own selves .
Cause i see a number so high it cannot be counted by mere man , WHO are in great pride
and have long twisted the scriptures in favor of the doctrines , precepts , and yes even love of the world .
Yet all under the cliam it be of GOD and thus sayeth the LORD .
PRIDE . it took lucifer DOWN . Pride it has caused the fall of many .
Pride it will be the ruin of all .
IT IS BIBLE TIME in the house .
@amigo de christo
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David1701

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Catholics do not believe priests replace Christ as mediator. Priests minister by participation in Christ's priesthood. Christ remains the one mediator between God and man.

Otherwise, by the same reasoning, every pastor who preaches, baptizes, counsels, or prays for others would be acting as a rival mediator to Christ.

What do you think Jesus spent three years doing with the Twelve? He wasn't merely creating a loose association of independent believers. He appointed apostles, gave them authority to teach, baptize, forgive sins (John 20:21-23), celebrate the Eucharist ("Do this in remembrance of me"), and shepherd His flock.

The real question is not whether Christ established ministers within His Church, but whether that authority ended with the Apostles or continued through their successors.

A ministerial priesthood does not compete with Christ's mediation any more than a pastor's ministry competes with Christ's mediation. All Christian ministry derives its authority from Christ and participates in His work; none of it replaces Him.
Romanism has a mediatorial priesthood, taking confessions that should go only to the Lord and giving out penances; also "re-presenting" the "unbloody sacrifice" of the Lord, in the blasphemy of the R.C. Mass. In contrast, in Christianity, every believer is a priest , offering the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving to God.

Your "priests" do not participate in Christ's mediation; rather, they replace it and oppose it, by their actions.

Pastors do not take confessions or give out penances; they also do not participate in the blasphemous Mass, nor do they mediate between man and God.

The apostles had no successors.
 

Moonwood

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Romanism has a mediatorial priesthood, taking confessions that should go only to the Lord and giving out penances; also "re-presenting" the "unbloody sacrifice" of the Lord, in the blasphemy of the R.C. Mass. In contrast, in Christianity, every believer is a priest , offering the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving to God.

Your "priests" do not participate in Christ's mediation; rather, they replace it and oppose it, by their actions.

Pastors do not take confessions or give out penances; they also do not participate in the blasphemous Mass, nor do they mediate between man and God.

The apostles had no successors.

You've now moved well beyond the original discussion about Mary and into a broader critique of Catholicism.

But several of your claims simply assume the very thing you need to prove.
For example, you say:

"The apostles had no successors."

But where does Scripture say the apostolic office ended with the death of the Apostles?

In Acts 1, when Judas' office became vacant, the Apostles did not say, "When an apostle dies, the office ends." Instead, they filled the vacancy:

"His office let another take" (Acts 1:20).

That at least shows the office itself was not viewed as non-transferable.

Likewise, you say:

"Pastors do not mediate between man and God."

Yet pastors preach the Gospel, baptize, counsel, pray for others, shepherd Christ's flock, and participate in the ministry of reconciliation. None of those activities replace Christ's unique mediation. They participate in His ministry.

Catholics make the same distinction regarding priests. Christ alone reconciles man to God. Christ alone is the one mediator between God and man. The Catholic claim is not that priests replace Christ, but that they minister under His authority.

And regarding confession, if hearing another person's confession somehow violates Christ's mediation, then why did Christ say to the Apostles:

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; and whose sins you retain are retained" (John 20:23)?

The context is especially important.

Jesus is speaking to the very men who had fled, doubted, denied Him, and abandoned Him during His Passion. Yet after forgiving and restoring them, He says:

"As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you" (John 20:21).

He does not discard them because of their failures. He sends them.

In fact, there is a profound lesson here. Men who have themselves received mercy are entrusted with a ministry of mercy. Having experienced Christ's forgiveness personally, they are commissioned to extend His ministry of reconciliation to others.

Their failures taught them humility. They learned firsthand what it means to need forgiveness, restoration, compassion, and patience. Precisely because they knew their own weakness, they were not to look down on repentant sinners, but to help bring them back to God.

That does not mean they replace Christ. It means they serve as His representatives.

Christ remains the one mediator between God and man. But He nevertheless chose to send these forgiven men into the world, breathe the Holy Spirit upon them, and entrust them with authority concerning the forgiveness and retention of sins.

So the question is not whether Christ is the one mediator. We both agree that He is.

The question is why Christ would send the Apostles as the Father sent Him, give them the Holy Spirit, and say:

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; and whose sins you retain are retained"

if they were intended to have no ministerial role in reconciliation whatsoever.

Simply asserting that priests "replace Christ" does not answer John 20:21-23. It assumes the very conclusion that still needs to be demonstrated.
 

David1701

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You've now moved well beyond the original discussion about Mary and into a broader critique of Catholicism.

But several of your claims simply assume the very thing you need to prove.
For example, you say:

"The apostles had no successors."

But where does Scripture say the apostolic office ended with the death of the Apostles?

In Acts 1, when Judas' office became vacant, the Apostles did not say, "When an apostle dies, the office ends." Instead, they filled the vacancy:

"His office let another take" (Acts 1:20).

That at least shows the office itself was not viewed as non-transferable.
God replaced Judas Iscariot with Paul, for the ministry of the twelve apostles. That is completely different from the R.C. doctrine of so-called "apostolic succession", for which is zero scriptural evidence.

Likewise, you say:

"Pastors do not mediate between man and God."

Yet pastors preach the Gospel, baptize, counsel, pray for others, shepherd Christ's flock, and participate in the ministry of reconciliation. None of those activities replace Christ's unique mediation. They participate in His ministry.
In none of these activites does the pastor act as a mediator between God and men, unlike the claimed mediatorial priesthood of Romanism.

Catholics make the same distinction regarding priests. Christ alone reconciles man to God. Christ alone is the one mediator between God and man. The Catholic claim is not that priests replace Christ, but that they minister under His authority.
This is the usual sophistry. The R.C.'s so-called "priests" act in the place of Christ (i.e. as anti-Christs).

And regarding confession, if hearing another person's confession somehow violates Christ's mediation, then why did Christ say to the Apostles:

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; and whose sins you retain are retained" (John 20:23)?
John 20:23 (NASB 1995) If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [a] have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

[a] John 20:23 i.e. have previously been forgiven

The tense is ambiguous in the unnamed version you've quoted; however, here, it is clear that it is about declaring to those who believe the gospel that their sins have been forgiven; and to the unbelievers that their sins have been retained.


The context is especially important.

Jesus is speaking to the very men who had fled, doubted, denied Him, and abandoned Him during His Passion. Yet after forgiving and restoring them, He says:

"As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you" (John 20:21).

He does not discard them because of their failures. He sends them.
Yes, and...?

In fact, there is a profound lesson here. Men who have themselves received mercy are entrusted with a ministry of mercy. Having experienced Christ's forgiveness personally, they are commissioned to extend His ministry of reconciliation to others.
We know.

Their failures taught them humility. They learned firsthand what it means to need forgiveness, restoration, compassion, and patience. Precisely because they knew their own weakness, they were not to look down on repentant sinners, but to help bring them back to God.
We know.

That does not mean they replace Christ. It means they serve as His representatives.
What does "Vicar of Christ" mean? (N.B. I'm not looking for information, since I already know the answer; I just want to see what you say.)

Christ remains the one mediator between God and man. But He nevertheless chose to send these forgiven men into the world, breathe the Holy Spirit upon them, and entrust them with authority concerning the forgiveness and retention of sins.
Only God can forgive sins; but, we can declare that those who have believed the gospel have been forgiven; and that those who don't have not.

So the question is not whether Christ is the one mediator. We both agree that He is.
Then why do you have a mediatorial priesthood? All Christians are priests unto God. There is no separate priesthood, in the New Covenant.

The question is why Christ would send the Apostles as the Father sent Him, give them the Holy Spirit, and say:

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; and whose sins you retain are retained"

if they were intended to have no ministerial role in reconciliation whatsoever.
Answered above (and I note the typically vague and "open to interpretation" wording of your question - "ministerial role in reconciliation").

Simply asserting that priests "replace Christ" does not answer John 20:21-23. It assumes the very conclusion that still needs to be demonstrated.
Answered above.
 

Moonwood

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God replaced Judas Iscariot with Paul, for the ministry of the twelve apostles. That is completely different from the R.C. doctrine of so-called "apostolic succession", for which is zero scriptural evidence.




In none of these activites does the pastor act as a mediator between God and men, unlike the claimed mediatorial priesthood of Romanism.


This is the usual sophistry. The R.C.'s so-called "priests" act in the place of Christ (i.e. as anti-Christs).


John 20:23 (NASB 1995) If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [a] have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

[a] John 20:23 i.e. have previously been forgiven

The tense is ambiguous in the unnamed version you've quoted; however, here, it is clear that it is about declaring to those who believe the gospel that their sins have been forgiven; and to the unbelievers that their sins have been retained.



Yes, and...?


We know.


We know.


What does "Vicar of Christ" mean? (N.B. I'm not looking for information, since I already know the answer; I just want to see what you say.)


Only God can forgive sins; but, we can declare that those who have believed the gospel have been forgiven; and that those who don't have not.


Then why do you have a mediatorial priesthood? All Christians are priests unto God. There is no separate priesthood, in the New Covenant.


Answered above (and I note the typically vague and "open to interpretation" wording of your question - "ministerial role in reconciliation").


Answered above.

A few observations.

First, Acts 1 actually works against your claim that an office automatically ceased when its holder was gone.
The Apostles did not say, "Judas is gone, therefore the office is gone."
They said:

"His office let another take" (Acts 1:20).

And that office was filled by Matthias (Acts 1:26), not Paul.

Whatever conclusions we draw from that, it demonstrates that the apostolic office itself was not viewed as inherently non-transferable. My point is not that Acts 1 proves the entire Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession. My point is simply that the Apostles did not conclude that an office ceased to exist when its holder departed.

Second, regarding John 20:23, you have offered an interpretation, but the text itself says:

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; and whose sins you retain are retained."

The text does not say:

"Announce to people that God has already forgiven them."

Nor does it say:

"Inform unbelievers that their sins remain."

That may be your interpretation, but it is not what the text explicitly says.
In fact, Jesus first says:

"As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you" (John 20:21).

Then He breathes on them and gives them the Holy Spirit.
Then He speaks of forgiving and retaining sins.
That is a remarkably solemn commissioning if all that is meant is ordinary preaching.

Third, you ask about the phrase "Vicar of Christ."
A vicar is a representative or one who acts on behalf of another, not a replacement.
Paul calls himself:

"an ambassador for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:20).

An ambassador does not replace the king who sends him. He acts under the king's authority.
Likewise, when I say the Apostles and their successors act as Christ's representatives, I am not saying they replace Christ.

Fourth, you keep saying that Catholic priests "replace Christ," but I have yet to see you demonstrate that claim.
Catholics explicitly teach that Christ is the one mediator and the source of all grace. The question is whether Christ can choose to exercise His ministry through human instruments.
You seem willing to accept that Christ preaches through preachers, shepherds through pastors, and works through believers who intercede for one another.
Yet when we arrive at John 20:23, suddenly any participation in Christ's ministry becomes "replacement."
Why?

Most importantly, I think you're bypassing the point I raised about the context.
Jesus is commissioning men who had failed Him spectacularly. They fled, denied Him, and abandoned Him. Yet rather than discarding them, He forgives them, restores them, sends them, gives them the Holy Spirit, and entrusts them with responsibilities concerning the forgiveness and retention of sins.
That tells me Christ intended these forgiven men to participate in His ministry of reconciliation, not merely stand on the sidelines and announce information.

So my question remains:

If John 20:23 means nothing more than informing people whether they are forgiven, why does Jesus connect it to being sent as He was sent, receiving the Holy Spirit, and exercising discernment regarding both the forgiveness and retention of sins?

That seems far more substantial than simply preaching the gospel.
 

David1701

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A few observations.

First, Acts 1 actually works against your claim that an office automatically ceased when its holder was gone.
The Apostles did not say, "Judas is gone, therefore the office is gone."
They said:

"His office let another take" (Acts 1:20).

And that office was filled by Matthias (Acts 1:26), not Paul.
No, Matthias was not the replacement for Judas, for several reasons:

1) Apostles were chosen by God, not men

2) The apostles tried to give God the choice between two men whom they had chosen, without any indication that God wanted either of them. They hadn't prayed about it, and they used lots to decide between the two men, so that the result had to be one or the other.

3) Matthias was only said to be "numbered" with the apostles; it does not say that he became one.

4) Matthias is never heard from again.

5) Paul was chosen by God, in a personal encounter with the Lord

6) Paul is declared to be an apostle, not merely numbered with them

7) Paul's exploits are recounted in Acts

8) Paul wrote much of the New Testament.

Whatever conclusions we draw from that, it demonstrates that the apostolic office itself was not viewed as inherently non-transferable. My point is not that Acts 1 proves the entire Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession. My point is simply that the Apostles did not conclude that an office ceased to exist when its holder departed.
There were twelve apostles; and the one who forfeited his office was replaced by God.

Second, regarding John 20:23, you have offered an interpretation, but the text itself says:

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; and whose sins you retain are retained."

The text does not say:

"Announce to people that God has already forgiven them."

Nor does it say:

"Inform unbelievers that their sins remain."

That may be your interpretation, but it is not what the text explicitly says.
In fact, Jesus first says:

"As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you" (John 20:21).

Then He breathes on them and gives them the Holy Spirit.
Then He speaks of forgiving and retaining sins.
That is a remarkably solemn commissioning if all that is meant is ordinary preaching.
I've already explained that the verse means that the sins they forgive have already been forgiven (in other words, they affirming an existing condition of forgiveness).

Third, you ask about the phrase "Vicar of Christ."
A vicar is a representative or one who acts on behalf of another, not a replacement.
Vicar means "substitute" or "in place of", which is one of the meanings of "anti", as in "anti-Christ".



Paul calls himself:

"an ambassador for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:20).

An ambassador does not replace the king who sends him. He acts under the king's authority.
Likewise, when I say the Apostles and their successors act as Christ's representatives, I am not saying they replace Christ.
There is no evidence that the apostles were to have successors. Paul was the replacement for Judas, not a successor.

Fourth, you keep saying that Catholic priests "replace Christ," but I have yet to see you demonstrate that claim.
Catholics explicitly teach that Christ is the one mediator and the source of all grace. The question is whether Christ can choose to exercise His ministry through human instruments.
You seem willing to accept that Christ preaches through preachers, shepherds through pastors, and works through believers who intercede for one another.
Yet when we arrive at John 20:23, suddenly any participation in Christ's ministry becomes "replacement."
Why?
The mediatorial priesthood ended with the passing of the O.C..

Most importantly, I think you're bypassing the point I raised about the context.
Jesus is commissioning men who had failed Him spectacularly. They fled, denied Him, and abandoned Him. Yet rather than discarding them, He forgives them, restores them, sends them, gives them the Holy Spirit, and entrusts them with responsibilities concerning the forgiveness and retention of sins.
That tells me Christ intended these forgiven men to participate in His ministry of reconciliation, not merely stand on the sidelines and announce information.
Preaching the gospel is the ministry of reconciliation.

So my question remains:

If John 20:23 means nothing more than informing people whether they are forgiven, why does Jesus connect it to being sent as He was sent, receiving the Holy Spirit, and exercising discernment regarding both the forgiveness and retention of sins?

That seems far more substantial than simply preaching the gospel.
It's not merely preaching the gospel; it is also pronouncing forgiveness to those who believe it, and that those who reject it remain under God's condemnation and wrath.
 

Moonwood

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We are both checking with scripture.
How come we don't agree on everything?

The answer is really quite simple, PRIDE!

I think the question to ask is: What's the truth? and seek it with a good will and love. If you do that, then you'll possess the wisdom to recognize the truth.



I think this is why Jesus chose, taught for three years, and gave authority to the twelve apostles: to be the first leaders of His Christian (Catholic = universal) Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Jesus served as an example and entrusted His teachings to them, so that they could pass it on to their successors, and that has continued to this day.

When you're a member of His bodily Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit,


Do you present your answer of "PRIDE" to @GodsGrace's question as an immortality or a holy virtue?
No, Matthias was not the replacement for Judas, for several reasons:

1) Apostles were chosen by God, not men

2) The apostles tried to give God the choice between two men whom they had chosen, without any indication that God wanted either of them. They hadn't prayed about it, and they used lots to decide between the two men, so that the result had to be one or the other.

3) Matthias was only said to be "numbered" with the apostles; it does not say that he became one.

4) Matthias is never heard from again.

5) Paul was chosen by God, in a personal encounter with the Lord

6) Paul is declared to be an apostle, not merely numbered with them

7) Paul's exploits are recounted in Acts

8) Paul wrote much of the New Testament.


There were twelve apostles; and the one who forfeited his office was replaced by God.


I've already explained that the verse means that the sins they forgive have already been forgiven (in other words, they affirming an existing condition of forgiveness).


Vicar means "substitute" or "in place of", which is one of the meanings of "anti", as in "anti-Christ".




There is no evidence that the apostles were to have successors. Paul was the replacement for Judas, not a successor.


The mediatorial priesthood ended with the passing of the O.C..


Preaching the gospel is the ministry of reconciliation.


It's not merely preaching the gospel; it is also pronouncing forgiveness to those who believe it, and that those who reject it remain under God's condemnation and wrath.

A few thoughts.

First, regarding Matthias.
You say Matthias was not Judas' replacement. But Acts explicitly says:

"His office let another take" (Acts 1:20).

Peter is speaking of Judas' office.
The Apostles then select Matthias, and Scripture says:

"the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:26).

You may believe Paul later had a unique apostolic calling, and I agree that he did. But Paul's later apostleship does not change the fact that Acts 1 records the filling of Judas' vacant office by Matthias.

Second, regarding John 20:23.
You keep asserting that it merely means declaring a prior forgiveness.
But the text itself does not say:

"Declare that sins have already been forgiven."

It says:

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; and whose sins you retain are retained."

Furthermore, if all Jesus intended was ordinary gospel preaching, why the special commissioning?

Why:

"As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you"?

Why breathe on them?
Why:

"Receive ye the Holy Spirit"?

Why immediately connect that gift with the forgiveness and retention of sins?
The context suggests something more specific than simply preaching a sermon.

Third, regarding "Vicar."
You say it means substitute.
But representatives routinely act in the name of another without replacing that person.
Paul says:

"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:20).

An ambassador acts in the king's name, but no one imagines the ambassador has replaced the king.

Likewise, Catholics do not believe priests replace Christ. The entire point is that Christ remains the source of authority and grace.

Finally, I think we're still circling around the same question:

If Christ intended no ministerial participation in His work of reconciliation, why did He give the Apostles authority not only regarding the forgiveness of sins but also regarding the retention of sins?

Declaring that believers are forgiven is one thing. Exercising discernment regarding both forgiveness and retention is something else.

That is why I don't think John 20:23 can be reduced to merely announcing what God has already done. The passage presents the Apostles as participating in Christ's ministry under His authority, not merely reporting information about it.