Why Christians Call Mary the Mother of God.

[BreadOfLife]

Peter, Peter, Peter…comedic spoof.

And yet NOBODY seems to be able to refute the Scriptural evidence of Peter’s Praimacy . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And yet God had Paul write the majority of the New Testament which outlines Church Doctrine.

Any WHY do you suppose Paul never refers to Peter as “Peter”?

Instead, he refers to him as “Cephas”, which is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew word, “Kepha”, which means “ROCK” (1 Cor. 3:22, 1 Cor. 9:5, Gal. 1:18, Gal. 2:11).

This is the name Jesus gave him in Matt. 16:

Matt. 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kepha), and upon this rock (Kepha), I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it..

Paul understood his primacy – even though YOU refuse to . . .

Peter was NOT preeminent.

Interesting how you were unable to address ANY of the Scriptural evidence I presented for Peter’s Primacy . . .

 

[Taken]

lev 26:[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

 

[Taken]

For their rock is not as our Rock…

 

[Taken]

Matt 10:
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Oh… hello Paul.

 

[Taken]

All worked out okay…
Peter, Paul and Mary… friends

 

[Taken]

One within the scope of everybody leturing on the dangers of Everybody Preaching opinions…

Irony.

 

[Rockerduck]

And therein lies the danger pf everybody interpreting Scripture for themselves – without understanding the differences and nuances of the Biblical languages as compared to 21st century English.

In Acts 15 - James doesn’t say that HE is deciding for the group. He is simply saying that he is giving his OPINION – his “2 cents”, as it were. There are several words for judging and giving opinions.

The usual Greek word for making a judgment or decree (Rom. 2:3) is κριμα (kree'-mah).

The word used in Acts 15:19 is κρινο (kree'-no), which means to give an opinion or a point of view.
James wasn’t making a decree. He was concurring with Peter.

James didn’t make the decision. He simply agreed with Peter’s conclusion in Acts 15:7-11.

Don't just quote Scripture - LEARN what it means . . .

I can read it better than you. Acts 15:13 -After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, Brethren, listen to me. Do you read that, It is James who takes control. It is James who quotes scripture, It is James who makes the Judgement. Acts 15:19 - therefore, it is my Judgment that we (James is speaking for everybody) do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles.

Learn what that means and don't just quote Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I can read it better than you. Acts 15:13 -After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, Brethren, listen to me. Do you read that, It is James who takes control. It is James who quotes scripture, It is James who makes the Judgement. Acts 15:19 - therefore, it is my Judgment that we (James is speaking for everybody) do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles.

Ay, yi, yi - where to begin?

First of all – I already laid out the linguistic evidence showing that James was declaring his OPINION and was NOT making a decree or decision. I even gave you the different Greek words and their definitions.

You also apparently, didn’t read my list of Biblical evidence that I presented for the Petrine Primacy . . .

WHO wrote the Book of Acts?
It was Luke, who also wrote the Gospel of Luke.

- In Luke’s Gospel, Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32)

- In Luke’ Gospel (Luke 6:14), Peter's name occurs first in all lists of Apostles – along with the Gospels of Matthew and Mark - as well as in Acts (Matt. 10:2; Mark 3:16; Acts 1:13)

- Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22)

- Peter is the first person to speak (and the ONLY one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the FIRST Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36)

- Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12)

- Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)

- Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40)

- Cornelius is told by an Angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6)

There are about a HUNDRED such proofs throughout the NT. And, Luke didn't provide ALL of these textual proofs of Peter’s Primacy - only to contradict himself in Acts 15.

You need to learn to study the Scriptures in their full CONTEXT . . .

 

[Rockerduck]

Ay, yi, yi - where to begin?

First of all – I already laid out the linguistic evidence showing that James was declaring his OPINION and was NOT making a decree or decision. I even gave you the different Greek words and their definitions.

You also apparently, didn’t read my list of Biblical evidence that I presented for the Petrine Primacy . . .

WHO wrote the Book of Acts?
It was Luke, who also wrote the Gospel of Luke.

- In Luke’s Gospel, Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32)

- In Luke’ Gospel (Luke 6:14), Peter's name occurs first in all lists of Apostles – along with the Gospels of Matthew and Mark - as well as in Acts (Matt. 10:2; Mark 3:16; Acts 1:13)

- Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22)

- Peter is the first person to speak (and the ONLY one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the FIRST Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36)

- Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12)

- Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)

- Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40)

- Cornelius is told by an Angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6)

There are about a HUNDRED such proofs throughout the NT. And, Luke didn't provide ALL of these textual proofs of Peter’s Primacy - only to contradict himself in Acts 15.

You need to learn to study the Scriptures in their full CONTEXT . . .

I was only, and specifically, and made reference to, talking about the Jerusalem council, not all the bible. Only that James led that meeting, and Peter finally spoke up at the last, and not the first. And James made his Judgement. Nothing else to dispute what you said about Apostle Peter. So, I say, love you man.

 

[BreadOfLife]

For their rock is not as our Rock…

Funny you should say that because there are actually THREE people init he Bible referred to as the "ROCK":

Abraham
Isaiah 51:1

Jesus
(Psalm 18:2, Matt. 7:24-25, Cor. 10:4)

Peter
Matt. 16:18

Does Scripture LIE?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was only, and specifically, and made reference to, talking about the Jerusalem council, not all the bible. Only that James led that meeting, and Peter finally spoke up at the last, and not the first. And James made his Judgement. Nothing else to dispute what you said about Apostle Peter. So, I say, love you man.

No – as much as YOU want to dispense with the CONTEXT of Luke’s writings – it matters.
The different Greek words I provided - WITH Biblical conotext also matter.

As I stated before - Luke didn't provide ALL of these textual proofs of Peter’s Primacy - only to contradict himself in Acts 15.

 

[JimKnox]

Ay, yi, yi - where to begin?

First of all – I already laid out the linguistic evidence showing that James was declaring his OPINION and was NOT making a decree or decision. I even gave you the different Greek words and their definitions.

You also apparently, didn’t read my list of Biblical evidence that I presented for the Petrine Primacy . . .

WHO wrote the Book of Acts?
It was Luke, who also wrote the Gospel of Luke.

- In Luke’s Gospel, Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32)

- In Luke’ Gospel (Luke 6:14), Peter's name occurs first in all lists of Apostles – along with the Gospels of Matthew and Mark - as well as in Acts (Matt. 10:2; Mark 3:16; Acts 1:13)

- Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22)

- Peter is the first person to speak (and the ONLY one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the FIRST Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36)

- Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12)

- Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)

- Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40)

- Cornelius is told by an Angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6)

There are about a HUNDRED such proofs throughout the NT. And, Luke didn't provide ALL of these textual proofs of Peter’s Primacy - only to contradict himself in Acts 15.

You need to learn to study the Scriptures in their full CONTEXT . . .

Baloney.
Your eisegesis is faulty.
The RCC is antichrist and heretical.
Peter was not the leader as you presume.
He was NOT the "first pope".
If ANY man was "first" among the apostles it was Paul but even he denied the concept.
Only Christ is preeminent in the Church.
Want proof?
There is ONE mediator between God's and man; the Man Christ Jesus.
That passage all by itself puts the lie to the entire RCC.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Baloney.
Your eisegesis is faulty.

My eisegesis is faulty?
You can say that ALL you want – but you STILL haven’t refuted a single verse of this evidence.

And yet, you STILL haven’t been able to explain why Paul refers to Peter as “Cehpas” in his letters.
Cephas is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew, “Kephah”, which Jesus called Simon in Matt. 16:18, which was a fulfillment of the OT type of Eliakim in Isa. 22:

OT TYPE
Isaiah 22:20–22
In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

NT FULFILLMENT
Matt. 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Face it – the CONTEXT of Scripture as to Peter’s Primacy is too overwhelming to ignore . . .

The RCC is antichrist and heretical.

THAT'S what this really boils down to -YOUR hatred of the Catholic Church.
It has nothing to do with the CONTEXT of Biblical truth that you can't comprehend . . .

Peter was not the leader as you presume.

He was NOT the "first pope".

And I have amply shown that he was - YOUR inability to disprove anything, notwithstanding . . .

If ANY man was "first" among the apostles it was Paul but even he denied the concept.

And, as I have overwhelmingly shown - this is NOT the case . . .

Only Christ is preeminent in the Church.
Want proof?
There is ONE mediator between God's and man; the Man Christ Jesus.
That passage all by itself puts the lie to the entire RCC.

As it pertains to satisfying the debt owed to God, absolutely.

However - in the OT, we read about THREE distinct levels of Priests:
- Aaron, the High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The General priesthood of the rest of Israel

The NT also speaks of THREE distinct levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5 and Heb. 7:22-25).
- The Ministerial/Levitical Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9)

Whereas the Old Testament priests would offer slaughtered bulls and goats as a sacrifice before God as reparation for sins - the Ministerial priest in the New Covenant offers up the eternal and perfect sacrifice made by Christ on our behalf, which is represented in the Eucharist.

As you should know - NT fulfillments are always more glorious than their OT types . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

lev 26:[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Hmmmm - strange how God commanded Moses to make 2 golden Cherubim to place atop the Ark (Exod. 25:18-20) and they prostrated themselves before it (Joshua 7:6).
He also commanded him to fashion a bronze serpent and mount it on a pole so that those who gazed upon it would be healed (Num. 21:4-9).

Was God therefore breaking his own Commandments when he ordered the creation of images?
Nope.

Images ONLY idols when THEY are worshipped as gods.
The Protestant position would render ALL statues and paintings created by Catholic AND Protestant artists over the centuries to be “idols”. It is simply NOT a cohesive argument, given the context of Scripture.

Catholics don’t pray TO statues or paintings – NOR do we “worship” them as gods.
They are simply reminders. YOU and most anti-Catholics KNOW this – but you would rather wallow in the LIE because you wrongly think it upsets us.

And therein lies the sin . . .

 

[Taken]

Funny you should say that because there are actually THREE people init he Bible referred to as the "ROCK":

Abraham
Isaiah 51:1

Jesus
(Psalm 18:2, Matt. 7:24-25, Cor. 10:4)

Peter
Matt. 16:18

Does Scripture LIE?

It is Not a conclusion of Wondering IF Scripture “Lies”.

Rather it IS Understanding Deep and Subtle Clues in the mysteries of Scripture.

What “order / place” something has a supreme or a lower significance.
Often signified with CAPITAL Lettering.

Christ the Lord God holds the Supreme position.

Abraham (earthly father of many, Jews AND Gentiles) holds a signifiant high position (but not supreme )

Peter (a Jew) holds a signifiant position for Jews. ( but not supreme)

Saul/ Paul (a Jewish Gentile ) holds a signifiant position for Jews and Gentiles. (but not supreme).

The Rock is Scripturally Clear regarding supremacy.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

[15] But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

[18] Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

[31] For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

2 Sam 23:
[3] The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

1 Cor 10:
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Regarding Matt. 16:18…

Background… Two Simons Were included in Jesus’ Chosen Disciples.

Simon Barjona was the first of the Disciples to Acknowledge Allegiance to Jesus.
(John 6: 68-69)

Jesus gave Simon Barjona a Surname …
Aramaic - Cephas
(Meaning a mass of rock detached from the living rock)
Greek - Petros
English - Peter


Matt 10:
[2] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

The Disciples with Jesus…
Jesus Asked Them a QUESTION.
Matt 16:
[15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

None could answer… Until Simon Barjona / Peter “Was Given the Answer By God.”

Jesus Blessed Simon Barjona for Stating the Answer God had Given Him.

Matt 16:
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

“this rock”… is the Answer…Jesus Christ.

It is obvious your understanding is parallel to Ancient Catholic Teachings…

However My Belief IS The “rock” in Matt 16:18 … is NOT Peter … is Not About Peter…but Rather About the Question Jesus Asked…The Answer God Gave to Peter…

“ Of Who Jesus IS …He IS the rock upon which Jesus would, did, is building His Church. “



Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Was God therefore breaking his own Commandments when he ordered the creation of images?

Not a mystery…
God Established “Commandments FOR Human men”.

What, When, Why, Where, How…
God does do, doesn’t do Doesn’t Require Him to Make a List For Himself to be reminded.

If you require a “List” to remind YOU of Gods Attributes…they are revealed throughout Scripture.

God IS the Creator.
God IS the Maker.
God IS Supreme Power.
God IS Good.
God IS Holy.
God IS Truth.
God IS Gracious.
God IS Patient.
God Is Faithful.
God IS Just.

Images ONLY idols when THEY are worshipped as gods.
The Protestant position would render ALL statues and paintings created by Catholic AND Protestant artists over the centuries to be “idols”. It is simply NOT a cohesive argument, given the context of Scripture.

Never made that argument.
Thus your deflection is “irrelevant”.

Catholics don’t pray TO statues or paintings – NOR do we “worship” them as gods.

Not worshiping your statues “as gods”…
Implies a different KIND of Worship.

They are simply reminders. YOU and most anti-Catholics KNOW this –

When I SEE, a statue, picture, etc. MY Vision, Is Enough to REMIND of its significance or role in history…
Without Bowing Down TO it, praying To it, kissing it, laying Trinkets before it…
Like a cheapened showy performance to impress onlookers.

but you would rather wallow in the LIE because you wrongly think it upsets us.

What lie…? I said no lie…

And therein lies the sin . . .

Your “fraudlent Accusations and Ignorance of WHAT Sin IS… “… is accounted to You …
not me.

 

[Taken]

Hmmmm - strange how God commanded Moses to make 2 golden Cherubim to place atop the Ark (Exod. 25:18-20) and they prostrated themselves before it (Joshua 7:6).
He also commanded him to fashion a bronze serpent and mount it on a pole so that those who gazed upon it would be healed (Num. 21:4-9).

Was God therefore breaking his own Commandments when he ordered the creation of images?
Nope.

Images ONLY idols when THEY are worshipped as gods.
The Protestant position would render ALL statues and paintings created by Catholic AND Protestant artists over the centuries to be “idols”. It is simply NOT a cohesive argument, given the context of Scripture.

Catholics don’t pray TO statues or paintings – NOR do we “worship” them as gods.
They are simply reminders. YOU and most anti-Catholics KNOW this – but you would rather wallow in the LIE because you wrongly think it upsets us.

And therein lies the sin . . .

God giving “commands to Any particular Man … falls under the purview of His Supremacy…”
(without your input or judgement consideration)

Praying TO a dead or Living human… was Forbidden, but Yet…

“Hail Mary”… “Hail Mary”… “Hail Mary”…
Continual Prayers TO a dead woman.

You do as you have been told…

I do as I have Learned from Gods Word.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Matt 16:
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

“this rock”… is the Answer…Jesus Christ.
It is obvious your understanding is parallel to Ancient Catholic Teachings…

However My Belief IS The “rock” in Matt 16:18 … is NOT Peter … is Not About Peter…but Rather About the Question Jesus Asked…The Answer God Gave to Peter…

“ Of Who Jesus IS …He IS the rock upon which Jesus would, did, is building His Church. “

The NT was written in Koine Greek - the lingua franca of the time, to appeal to a worldwide audience. However - Jesus and the Apostles spoke Hebrew - NOT Greek. In Hebrew – there is NO distinction in Matt. 16:18.

Jesus said, “You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my Church ...”
NOTHING about small rocks (petros) or large Rocks (Petra).

In fact, the reason that Peter is referred to as Petros (not Petra) in Matt. 16 is because Petra is a feminine noun. English doesn’t have masculine OR feminine nouns like the Greek or the Latin languages. It would have been as silly as calling him “Patricia”.

This is why Paul stuck to a Greek transliteration of Kepha (Cephas) instead of using the “Petros” reference, which changes the meaning of what Jesus said.

As I stated in an earlier post -
Jesus called Simon in Matt. 16:18, which was a fulfillment of the OT type of Eliakim in Isa. 22:

OT TYPE
Isaiah 22:20–22
In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

NT FULFILLMENT
Matt. 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Yours is an error in translation - and a refusal to accept the Truth . . .

Non-Catholc scholars AGREEwith this osition. I can offer you DOZENS of examples. But for now, I'll only list a few out of concern for room on this post . . .

1. There is no distinction between "petros" and "petra."
"In Aramaic 'Peter' and Rock are the same word; in Greek (here), they are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period."
--Craig S. Keener,The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 90.

2. "I grant that in Greek Peter (Petros) and stone (petra) mean the same thing, save that the first word is Attic [from the ancient classical Greek dialect of the Attica region], the second from the common tongue."
--John Calvin, Calvin's New Testament Commentaries: The Harmony of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 2, trans. T. H. L. Parker, ed. David W. Torrance and Thomas F. Torrance, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972), 188.

3. Two different Greek words are used because you can't use a feminine noun for a man's name.
"The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."
--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

4. "By the words 'this rock' Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter's confession, but PETER HIMSELF."
--J. Knox Chamblin, "Matthew," in Walter A. Eldwell, ed., Evangelical Commentary on the Bible (Grand Rapids: MI: Baker, 1989), 742.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not a mystery…
God Established “Commandments FOR Human men”.

What, When, Why, Where, How…
God does do, doesn’t do Doesn’t Require Him to Make a List For Himself to be reminded.

Correct.
But He would NEVER connand anyone to break one of HIS commandments.

Never made that argument.
Thus your deflection is “irrelevant”.
Not worshiping your statues “as gods”…
Implies a different KIND of Worship.

Nice try.
But worshipping an idol is ONLY for the purposes of recognizing said idol as a "god" . . .

When I SEE, a statue, picture, etc. MY Vision, Is Enough to REMIND of its significance or role in history…
Without Bowing Down TO it, praying To it, kissing it, laying Trinkets before it…
Like a cheapened showy performance to impress onlookers.

Anc Catholics don't bow TO or pray TO statues or paintines, as I clearly stated before.
Again - you KNOW this but you embrace the LIE instead.

Uhhh - you DO know who the father of LIES is, don't you (John 8:4)?

What lie…? I said no lie…
Your “fraudlent Accusations and Ignorance of WHAT Sin IS… “… is accounted to You …
not me.

You certainly DID - when you lied about Catholics praying TO and bowing TO statues and images.