Why do Catholics…

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Jim B

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Sorry, the "original word" is not confined to text.

Neither do we, and we don't divide God's written word from the spoken word. They come from the same source. Why do you keep repeating the same lie over and over again? "works salvation" was condemned by the Catholic Church 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Catholicism does not teach "works" apart from the grace of Christ, and this has been explained repeatedly. The problem could be your just brain washed, or you have been deceived by false teachers. Here is an example of a false teacher who knows he is lying but keeps lying anyway, with books and videos.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davea...-vs-distorted-caricatures-james-mccarthy.html

Aside from the absurd doctrine about Catholic doctrine, why do you and others persist in claiming that Protestants don't have their origin in Christ and the apostles? All Christian denominations spring from the same root: Jesus and the apostles. The Catholic denomination strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning and when God saw fit, He split the true Christians off into Protestantism. I assume that He had enough of the violence -- the crusades, the inquisitions, the excommunications of believers in the truth, the mass murder of indigenous peoples who didn't succumb to Catholicism, etc. -- and led Martin Luther and others into His love and truth, just as He led Moses and the Hebrews away from Pharaoh.
 

Jim B

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THIS, coming from a Sola Scripturist, who says that Scripture is our SOLE Authority.
Okay – let’s play that game . . .

Scripture says that:
- Jesus guaranteed that His Church would not succumb to darkness (Matt. 16:18).
- His Church would remain ONE – as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
- WHATEVER His Church looses or binds on earth will be loosed or bound in Heaven (Matt. 16:19, 18:16-18).
- The Holy Spirit will guide His Church to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- His Church is the Pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- His Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).


So, THERE’S my proof.
And, since YOUR sect didn't come about until 1500 years or more LATER - YOU don't have that proof.

This is Catholic nonsense. The origin of Protestantism is in Jesus and the apostles. The Catholic denomination became such a distortion of Christianity that God had Luther and others continue His truth in a different direction. Protestants didn't believe in false doctrine, unBiblical "truths", inquisitions, mass murder of innocents, etc.

Just as Moses led the Hebrews away from Pharaoh and Jesus led the Jews away from the false teachings of the rabbis, so God used Luther and others to lead believers into the true faith.

This is symbolically portrayed in Catholic crucifixes, which show Jesus as dead on the cross, whereas Protestants show the empty cross because we know that Christ is alive at the right hand of God!
 

Philip James

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I have the original words of the Bible. I don't need to read corrupt people's corrupt, Spirit-less, and misguided, carnal interpretations of the Bible.

What you are missing, my dear Ferris,

Is that the Church was celebrating the Sacraments and living the Faith, before 1 letter of the NT was penned.

To read the NT without the context of the living Tradition of the Church, Which we received from Christ, through the apostles, is to set oneself up for all kinds of misunderstandings..

Pax et Bonum
 
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Philip James

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Stop! Just because Catholic teachers claim the Apostles believed what they taught doesn't mean it's true. Good gosh, BOL, you're so gullible! You'll believe anything without proof!

Proof?
Brother what more proof do you need than this: Every 2000 year old apostolic community Lives this Truth!

You are thus forced to conclude that it is the teaching of the apostles, or that the whole Church, everywhere, not only fell into error, but the very same error..

Pax et Bonum
 

Illuminator

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Let's just get something straight, right now.
I don't give a crap what these fellers have to say.
I have the original words of the Bible. I don't need to read corrupt people's corrupt, Spirit-less, and misguided, carnal interpretations of the Bible. I only need what the original Apostles and prophets wrote. I can't believe you don't agree with that. Why do you feel the scriptures are not sufficient and require additions from other people?
With the introduction of Luther’s principle of individual interpretation of the Bible in the 16th century, called sola scriptura – “the Bible alone,” passages of Scripture were subjected to outlandish interpretations that bore little relationship to the sacred text and the Christian faith that had been faithfully passed on from Jesus and the apostles for 1,500 years. One example of the confusion that followed is evidenced in Christopher Rasperger’s work published in 1577, 200 Interpretations of the Words: This is My Body.

Ferris, which of the 200 interpretations can you trace your doctrine from? Which interpretation did you branch from, since you deny 1500 years of authoritive consistent teaching???

pope-luther.jpg

AND I TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE LUTHER, AND UPON THIS LUTHER
I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, 15 CENTURIES FROM NOW.
FOR UNTIL THEN, ALL THEOLOGIANS, SAINTS AND CHURCH LEADERS
WILL BE DEVOID OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND WILL BE INCAPABLE
OF INTERPRETING MY WORD
things Jesus never said
 

Illuminator

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The basic objection to the Catholic doctrine of the real presence is not that it is against Scripture, but that it is against reason. The words of Jesus seem plain enough. "This is my body." This is my blood." "Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you do not have life in you." "My flesh is real food, my blood is real drink." When some of his disciples complained, "This is a hard saying; who can accept it?", he didn't explain that he had not been speaking literally in saying he would give his body to eat and his blood to drink. Instead he let them go. As St. John tells us, many left him because they would not accept this teaching...

...If one thinks transubstantiation is repugnant to reason, this may be due to not having understood what substance is, and how it is related to accidents. We can't see a substance or touch it or taste it, so it may seem unreal. Perhaps we tend to think of it as an inert something, having no function except to support the active qualities shown by the senses.

If one thinks transubstantiation is repugnant to reason, this may be due to not having understood what substance is, and how it is related to accidents. We can't see a substance or touch it or taste it, so it may seem unreal. Perhaps we tend to think of it as an inert something, having no function except to support the active qualities shown by the senses. George Berkeley (1685-1753) declared material substance to be a meaningless term. He says: "It neither acts, nor perceives, nor is perceived: for this is all that is meant by saying it is an inert, senseless, unknown substance: which is a definition entirely made up of negatives, excepting only the relative notion of its standing under or supporting." [4]

That notion of substance is grotesque, but it does not seem so to an empiricist philosopher because of his reduction of all knowledge to sense knowledge; and it continues to influence some theologians when they think about transubstantiation. That is one reason for the widespread rejection of this dogma, and the substitution of transignification or transfinalization.

The truth is that denial of the reality of substance is a contradiction of common sense. For something must either exist in its own right, such as water, a tree, a cat: or else it must exist in something else, such as color or shape. What "stands on its own feet," as it were, is a substance; what exists in something else is an accident. Denial of substances leaves color, size, weight and so on without a subject of inherence: which implies a color which is not the color of anything, size which is not the size of anything, weight which is not the weight of anything.

The substance is the essence, the nature, of a thing which exists in its own right. It isn't inert, as Berkeley imagined, but dynamic, for it is the source from which all the powers and activities emanate. The accidents depend on it for their existence and their operation.

Take a stone, by way of example. We experience its hardness, its smoothness, its color, its shape. But the substance that has these attributes eludes our observation. Even were we to break the stone in two we wouldn't see the substance; if we broke it into a hundred pieces we would be no more successful. So we might try some scientific tests, but still the results would be in the order of phenomena.

The substance of the stone is material, but it is not sensible. Yet it is not unknown, for its accidents manifest it. From the accidents perceived by sight and the other senses, the intellect gains an insight into the essence (the substance). Therefore words like stone, water, tree, horse have meaning: each brings to mind the thing named, and we have in our intellect the essence of the reality in question, although never perfectly, for no substance can be perfectly understood through abstraction from sense knowledge.

The dogma of transubstantiation teaches that the whole substance of bread is changed into that of Christ's body, and the whole substance of wine into that of his blood, leaving the accidents of bread and wine unaffected. Reason, of course, can't prove that this happens. But it is not evidently against reason either; it is above reason. Our senses, being confined to phenomena, cannot detect the change: we know it only by faith in God's word.

After the priest consecrates the bread and wine, their accidents alone remain, without inhering in any substance. They can't inhere in the bread and wine, for these no longer exist; nor do they inhere in Christ's body and blood, for they are not his accidents. The Catechism of the Council of Trent says: "… the accidents which present themselves to the eyes or other senses exist in a wonderful and ineffable manner without a subject." [5] St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that God directly sustains the quantity of bread (or wine) in being, and that the other accidents inhere in the quantity. [6] For quantity is the fundamental accident: the others, such as color, exist as quantified—as having extension. There is no such thing as a non-extended color...

... A clearer understanding of what God, through his Church, tells us about the Eucharist, and a consideration of the objections to the doctrine, should deepen our faith. Vagueness and perplexity about it are often associated with errors lurking deep in the mind—errors which, if allowed to surface, can bring temptations against faith. A right understanding will dissipate the errors and show that reason need not be embarrassed by transubstantiation, even though it far transcends reason.

Not only that, but exploration of the doctrine makes it more real to us. We realize more clearly that the physical body and blood of Jesus Christ are as truly present as they are in heaven, or as they were when he labored in his workshop in Nazareth. While that realization is dominant, every genuflection will be a conscious act of adoration of the Incarnate God; the Consecration will always absorb our attention; we will never want to hurry out of church as soon as Mass is over.

Jesus comes to us physically because of his great love for us. Anyone who loves wants to be physically close to the one who is loved, but it is sometimes impossible. It is not impossible for God. Divine power changes bread and wine into the real body and blood of Christ, and he dwells physically on earth in every tabernacle, and comes physically into us in Holy Communion.

Transubstantiation and Reason
 
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BreadOfLife

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This is Catholic nonsense. The origin of Protestantism is in Jesus and the apostles. The Catholic denomination became such a distortion of Christianity that God had Luther and others continue His truth in a different direction. Protestants didn't believe in false doctrine, unBiblical "truths", inquisitions, mass murder of innocents, etc.

Just as Moses led the Hebrews away from Pharaoh and Jesus led the Jews away from the false teachings of the rabbis, so God used Luther and others to lead believers into the true faith.

This is symbolically portrayed in Catholic crucifixes, which show Jesus as dead on the cross, whereas Protestants show the empty cross because we know that Christ is alive at the right hand of God!
No – the ORIGIN of Protestantism is in your Protestant Fathers – i.e., Luther, Calvin, Zwingili, et al. Whether ot not they thought they were representing Christ is irrelevant. The OTIGIN is with them.

As to your second lie above in RED – don’t blame GOD for the Protestant Revolt.
This was a purely HUMAN movement. Your revisionist nonsense that Protestantism ushered in an era of “peace” and “truth” without the murder of innocents would come as a real surprise to History. Thousands and of thousands of Catholics were butchered and or starved to death all across Europe during this time. There’s PLEANTY of of blood to go around on ALL sides – so youo can SAVE your revisionist LIES for someone who doesn’t know his history.

As to your third idiocy in RED – God doesn’t lead people into confusion.
Jesus prayed that HIS Church remain ONE in everything – just as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). This is HARDLY the “Unity" that He prayed for . . .
Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

As to your final piece of manure in RED – it doesn’t surprise me in the LEAST that you are offended by the Crucifix.
Paul already warned us about people like YOU . . .

1 Cor. 1:22-23
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, BUT WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles


I guess we can add “Protestants” to that list . . .
 

EloyCraft

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Because it is the original word of the prophets and apostles.
We don't need anybody else's word. ESPECIALLY the word of works salvationist Catholics.
Original Word.
Not so. The Word of God begins to manifest in the lives of the first humans. The human body makes the Word of God visible on earth.

The Word written functions no differently before Christ than after.
The Word is lifted up by Christ but Protestants cling to the Word as it was before Christ. After Christ the Word is heard and that is necessary for the Church to transmit faith to the nations. After Christ the Holy Spirit is able to preserve the infallibility of doctrine that is intrinsic to the Word that comes out of the mouth of God. Protestants don't recognize Jesus in the Word fulfilled and lifted up as it is in the NT. Prophecy is the testimony of Christ. For the Jewish people the preservation of infallibility was entrusted to the Chair of Moses. That's why Jesus taught obedience to those who sit in Moses' seat. They did the wickedest of things but evil still couldn't prevail over the power of God.
Protestants reject that charism even though Jesus taught obedience to the seat Of Moses.

Jesus renamed the Chair of Moses to the Chair of Peter. Jesus sits on the Chair in Heaven and Peter sits on His Chair on earth.

The Jews had the Word written and the authority of Moses was passed down the generations because every generation someone sits in his chair.
In Christ the Word is heard! The Word as given to the Church can be preached with the power of Christ and accomplish the mission entrusted to it

The Jews were given the Word written and the authority to keep it until Jesus arrived.

The Word as given by Christ can accomplish it's mission because faith is through hearing.

The OT Word = the Word written (bible)
authority to teach infallibly(Chair)

The NT Word = written Word (bible)
authority to teach infallibly(Chair)
faith through hearing. (Bible/chair)

Protestant Word= written Word.( Bible alone)




Protestants only recognize Jesus in the Word written( Bible) The authority to teach is rejected.(Chair)
The power to convert the nations is defective (hearing)
 
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EloyCraft

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non-Catholics have the freedom to seek and find the truth an
I explained how that isn't true. You should read my posts more carefully.
What is it that enslaves human life? Sin.
Protestant faith depends on error to exist. That dependence obstructs freedom to seek truth. Functional seeking requires the love of truth wherever it's found.
Because the Protestant faith depends on error to exist protestants aren't able to love truth wherever it's found. Protestant faith needs error to exist in certain places. Protestants aren't free to seek truth wherever it's found so they can't love truth wherever it's found.
 

EloyCraft

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Aside from the absurd doctrine about Catholic doctrine, why do you and others persist in claiming that Protestants don't have their origin in Christ and the apostles? All Christian denominations spring from the same root: Jesus and the apostles. The Catholic denomination strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning and when God saw fit, He split the true Christians off into Protestantism. I assume that He had enough of the violence -- the crusades, the inquisitions, the excommunications of believers in the truth, the mass murder of indigenous peoples who didn't succumb to Catholicism, etc. -- and led Martin Luther and others into His love and truth, just as He led Moses and the Hebrews away from Pharaoh.
Jesus needs Martin Luther to help keep the gates of hell from prevailing. Lol. Ok

Many words, accusations and claims but you forgot to post a reason to believe them.
 
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EloyCraft

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Because it is the original word of the prophets and apostles.
We don't need anybody else's word. ESPECIALLY the word of works salvationist Catholics.
I take it that you don't know why because you think scriptures are for the foundation of Churches. Even though Jesus and the Apostles already did.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Ferris, which of the 200 interpretations can you trace your doctrine from? Which interpretation did you branch from, since you deny 1500 years of authoritive consistent teaching???
You Catholics just aren't getting this, lol.
We have the original teachings of the prophets and the Apostles. I listen to those words. The various interpretations of those words that are necessary are filtered through the Holy Spirit so that I can know who is telling the truth and who is not.

20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
27...the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.
1 John 2:20-27

I guess you Catholics don't get this because you don't know about, or believe, John's words above that say believer's have within themselves the capacity to discern lies from truth (your church has suppressed this truth). Catholics say someone has to do that for you. A special class of leadership like themselves, of course, lol. This is perhaps the biggest lie of the Catholic church. And, of course, it's designed to control and enslave and keep people from the truth.

What church organization embodies the whole and complete truth? None at this time in church history. In fact, there hasn't been one since the very earliest of times. What we have is the writings of the Apostles and prophets, and that is good enough. The scriptures, our individual gifts given for the benefit of each other, and the individual anointing to discern who's telling the truth and who is not is sufficient to know the truth.
 
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EloyCraft

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20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
27...the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.

He isn't saying what you think. You hear " all Christians are anointed and taught by the Holy Spirit. You don't need! A teacher because you know truth

Thiis isn't addressed to every who calls themselves Christian; unless all Christians believed the same things and members of one Church. He could say that to the Catholic Church but definitely not all Christians.
 
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EloyCraft

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What church organization embodies the whole and complete truth? None at this time in church history. In fact, there hasn't b

You are right. But then Jesus didn't teach the whole complete truth. It means that what the Church does know is all true. In addition that inerrancy is necessary or we can't be led to all Truth. You can't build truth on error. The whole thing is corrupted.
 
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theefaith

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Aside from the absurd doctrine about Catholic doctrine, why do you and others persist in claiming that Protestants don't have their origin in Christ and the apostles? All Christian denominations spring from the same root: Jesus and the apostles. The Catholic denomination strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning and when God saw fit, He split the true Christians off into Protestantism. I assume that He had enough of the violence -- the crusades, the inquisitions, the excommunications of believers in the truth, the mass murder of indigenous peoples who didn't succumb to Catholicism, etc. -- and led Martin Luther and others into His love and truth, just as He led Moses and the Hebrews away from Pharaoh.

protestantism is another gospel
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itchingears;

Protestantism is not sound doctrine
 

Ferris Bueller

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He isn't saying what you think. You hear " all Christians are anointed and taught by the Holy Spirit. You don't need! A teacher because you know truth
We need teachers. What we don't need is someone telling us what we hear from teachers is truth or not. Catholics say, yes, you do. John says, no, you don't because you have that within yourselves to be able to discern false teaching from true teaching.

Thiis isn't addressed to every who calls themselves Christian; unless all Christians believed the same things and members of one Church. He could say that to the Catholic Church but definitely not all Christians.
Just because the Catholic church has carefully programmed and controlled instruction does not equate to Catholics being able to discern truth. Quite the opposite in fact.
 

Ferris Bueller

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You are right. But then Jesus didn't teach the whole complete truth.
The words of the original prophets and Apostles in the scriptures provide the knowledge that his people need for life and godliness:

"2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us..." 2 Peter 1:2-3

We need teachers to teach us this knowledge (not teach us additional knowledge not found in scripture). And each believer has within himself the Holy Spirit to discern whether or not what he is being taught is the truth or not. We don't need the Catholic's so-called 'complete truth'. The words of the Apostles and prophets in the Bible is enough.