Why do Catholics…

[Illuminator]

The words of the original prophets and Apostles in the scriptures provide the knowledge that his people need for life and godliness:

"2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us..." 2 Peter 1:2-3​

We need teachers to teach us this knowledge (not teach us additional knowledge not found in scripture). And each believer has within himself the Holy Spirit to discern whether or not what he is being taught is the truth or not. We don't need the Catholic's so-called 'complete truth'. The words of the Apostles and prophets in the Bible is enough.

How can you say that when you don't even have bishops??? What's the matter? Can't find the office of "bishop" in the Bible???

 

[Illuminator]

You Catholics just aren't getting this, lol.
We have the original teachings of the prophets and the Apostles. I listen to those words. The various interpretations of those words that are necessary are filtered through the Holy Spirit so that I can know who is telling the truth and who is not.

20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
27...the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.
1 John 2:20-27​

I guess you Catholics don't get this because you don't know about, or believe, John's words above that say believer's have within themselves the capacity to discern lies from truth (your church has suppressed this truth). Catholics say someone has to do that for you. A special class of leadership like themselves, of course, lol. This is perhaps the biggest lie of the Catholic church. And, of course, it's designed to control and enslave and keep people from the truth.

What church organization embodies the whole and complete truth? None at this time in church history. In fact, there hasn't been one since the very earliest of times. What we have is the writings of the Apostles and prophets, and that is good enough. The scriptures, our individual gifts given for the benefit of each other, and the individual anointing to discern who's telling the truth and who is not is sufficient to know the truth.

That does not answer the question. Here it is again:
Ferris, which of the 200 interpretations (This Is My Body) can you trace your doctrine from? Which interpretation did you branch from, since you deny 1500 years of authoritive consistent teaching???

My point is that you cannot trace your individualistic beliefs beyond 500 years. You can't answer the question in simple terms because your knowledge of Protestantism is as bleak as your knowledge of Catholicism.

Religious individualism describes the attitude of those persons who refuse to subscribe to definite creeds, or to submit to any external religious authority. Such are those who call themselves freethinkers, and those who profess to believe in Christianity without giving their adhesion to any particular denomination. In a less extreme sense all Protestants are individualists in religion, inasmuch as they regard their individual interpretation of the Bible as the final authority. The Protestant who places the articles of faith adopted by his denomination before his own private interpretation of the teaching of Scripture is not, indeed, a thorough-going individualist, but neither is he a logical Protestant. On the other hand, Catholics accept the voice of the Church as the supreme authority, and therefore reject outright the principle of religious individualism.
​

Individualism

 

[Illuminator]

Aside from the absurd doctrine about Catholic doctrine, why do you and others persist in claiming that Protestants don't have their origin in Christ and the apostles?

"Faith alone" and "Bible alone" do not have origins in Christ and the apostles. But that does not mean Catholicism is anti-Protestant, but you want it to be.

All Christian denominations spring from the same root: Jesus and the apostles. The Catholic denomination strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning

Really? The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These proclamations are accepted by Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?
If the Catholic Church (which is not a denomination) strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning, then the CC is wrong about the Trinity.

and when God saw fit, He split the true Christians off into Protestantism.

God didn't saw fit for what happened next:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davea...ions-reformation-intolerance-persecution.html

I assume that He had enough of the violence -- the crusades, the inquisitions, the excommunications of believers in the truth, the mass murder of indigenous peoples who didn't succumb to Catholicism, etc. -- and led Martin Luther and others into His love and truth, just as He led Moses and the Hebrews away from Pharaoh.

This is a stupid, childish "your-daddy-is-uglier-that-my-daddy" argument that goes nowhere. It's angry cluster bombing and a dishonest tactic favored by the Seventh Day Adventists. If you are going to use history to bash Catholicism, try citing a reputable Ph.D. historian (Protestant or secular) from the last 50 years. That way we can avoid the Modernist 18th century rhetoric you rely on so much.

"The Catholic denomination strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning" is just trolling, because you have to prove the CC strayed from the truth about the Trinity from the very beginning.

 

[EloyCraft]

We need teachers. What we don't need is someone telling us what we hear from teachers is truth or not. Catholics say, yes, you do. John says, no, you don't because you have that within yourselves to be able to discern false teaching from true teaching.


Just because the Catholic church has carefully programmed and controlled instruction does not equate to Catholics being able to discern truth. Quite the opposite in fact.

Well,, it's useless for me to keep trying to communicate to you the truths of my faith if you aren't willing to let go of the false Catholicism you prefer.

 

[EloyCraft]

The words of the original prophets and Apostles in the scriptures provide the knowledge that his people need for life and godliness:

"2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us..." 2 Peter 1:2-3​

We need teachers to teach us this knowledge (not teach us additional knowledge not found in scripture). And each believer has within himself the Holy Spirit to discern whether or not what he is being taught is the truth or not. We don't need the Catholic's so-called 'complete truth'. The words of the Apostles and prophets in the Bible is enough.

I just want to say. You can't refute what you are unable to see. Truth exposes error by contrast.N o need to be an accuser. The error exprosed may remain hidden from me or may not. Cheers Ferris.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We need teachers. What we don't need is someone telling us what we hear from teachers is truth or not. Catholics say, yes, you do. John says, no, you don't because you have that within yourselves to be able to discern false teaching from true teaching.

Uh huh.

And tens of thousands of flawed men decided that they EACH heard the Holy Spirit teach them tens of thousands of different sets of doctrines until you have what you have today:
Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of their flawed, human founders.

And the SCARIEST part of this is that people like YOU claim that this confusion is the “Best” thjat the Holy Spirit can do.
John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS WE ARE ONE, I in them and you in me, THAT THEY MAY BECOME PERFECTLY ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

1 Cor. 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, AND THAT THERE BE NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU, but that you be united in the SAME MIND and the SAME JUDGMENT.

Ger, I don’t see ANYTHING here about the beauty of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions.
The Holy Spirit instructs the OBEDIENT in Christ . . .

 

[Philip James]

What church organization embodies the whole and complete truth

The Catholic Church. That is the Church of Christ, that HE founded through His apostles.
A community set apart, a people who praise God's Holy name and fulfill Malachi 1:11

 

[Jim B]

The Catholic Church. That is the Church of Christ, that HE founded through His apostles.
A community set apart, a people who praise God's Holy name and fulfill Malachi 1:11

The is no such thing is the Catholic Church in the Bible.

The church of Christ is His body, i.e., all believers. Ephesians 1:23, "Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

All believers are part of Christ's body, not just one denomination. You like to set Catholicism as the true body of Christ, but there is no basis for that claim.

 

[Jim B]

THIS, coming from a Sola Scripturist, who says that Scripture is our SOLE Authority.
Okay – let’s play that game . . .

Scripture says that:
- Jesus guaranteed that His Church would not succumb to darkness (Matt. 16:18).
- His Church would remain ONE – as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
- WHATEVER His Church looses or binds on earth will be loosed or bound in Heaven (Matt. 16:19, 18:16-18).
- The Holy Spirit will guide His Church to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- His Church is the Pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- His Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

So, THERE’S my proof.
And, since YOUR sect didn't come about until 1500 years or more LATER - YOU don't have that proof.

The usual nonsense. The Protestant church is not a sect. It was ordained by God to continue His truth when the Catholic denomination had gone so far from Christ -- the crusades, the inquisitions, the excommunications, the wholesale slaughter of people who refused to surrender to Catholic armies -- that God set a new path. Just as Moses set the Hebrews free from Pharaoh and Jesus set His body free from the corruption by the Jews, so He set Christians free from the evils and corruptions of the Catholic denomination.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The is no such thing is the Catholic Church in the Bible.

The church of Christ is His body, i.e., all believers. Ephesians 1:23, "Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

All believers are part of Christ's body, not just one denomination. You like to set Catholicism as the true body of Christ, but there is no basis for that claim.

I’ve already shown you this before – but here is a refresher . . .

Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:
“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “katah-holos”.
Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

"ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH

Anything else?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The usual nonsense. The Protestant church is not a sect. It was ordained by God to continue His truth when the Catholic denomination had gone so far from Christ -- the crusades, the inquisitions, the excommunications, the wholesale slaughter of people who refused to surrender to Catholic armies -- that God set a new path. Just as Moses set the Hebrews free from Pharaoh and Jesus set His body free from the corruption by the Jews, so He set Christians free from the evils and corruptions of the Catholic denomination.

I never said that.
And there is NO such thing as “The Protestant Church”.

It is a disjointed mess of tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines - while ALL claiming to have been “guided” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit.

Ummmmmm, Moses didn’t lead His people into tens of thousands of different directions and call them “ONE” People . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Still trolling, I see. I'm still waiting for an explanation. If the Catholic Church (which is not a denomination) strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning, then the CC is wrong about the Trinity. Running from post #1083 (scroll up) won't cover up your outrageous lie. You are so angry you can't see straight.

The is no such thing is the Catholic Church in the Bible.

Yes, there is.
Keep in mind that English as a language did not exist for many centuries after the Bible was written. Paul uses the phrase "whole world" means Kataholis, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic in English. Romans 1:8.

QUESTION: CATHOLIC: Where did the word originate?
ANSWER: It comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus. Catholic in English. .

QUESTION: What is the meaning of the word?
ANSWER: It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is necessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.

QUESTION: But is it Biblical?

ANSWER: Yes it is. It is in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world." That is a statement of Universality, Kataholis, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.

Romans 1:8 (Bible Gateway)

2605 [e] καταγγέλλεται
katangelletai is being proclaimed V-PIM/P-3S
1722 [e] ἐν
en in Prep
3650 [e] ὅλῳ
holō all Adj-DMS
Romans 1:8 Greek Text Analysis
3588 [e] τῷ
tō the Art-DMS
2889 [e] κόσμῳ.
kosmō world. N-DMS

Paul describes a divine character of the Church, it's more than a mere adjective. Keep in mind that English as a language did not exist for many centuries after the Bible was written. "Catholic" is in the Bible, using a "Bible alone" approach and textual analysis.
That's far more explicit than "sola scriptura" that isn't explicit anywhere in the Bible.

The church of Christ is His body, i.e., all believers. Ephesians 1:23, "Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

That's not the issue here. The CC does not exclude Protestants from the Body of Christ. Protestantism is like the runaway little brother that refuses to come home.

All believers are part of Christ's body, not just one denomination. You like to set Catholicism as the true body of Christ, but there is no basis for that claim.

150 Reasons why I am Catholic by Dave Armstrong ::
I'm still waiting for a basis of your claim" "strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning,", so logically, according to you, the Trinity is a false doctrine. It is a divinely revealed truth you borrowed from us. We don't claim to be the only church with truths.

"strayed so far from the truth almost from the very beginning,"
​

 

[EloyCraft]

The usual nonsense. The Protestant church is not a sect. It was ordained by God

hmm. Let's examine that. Luther, He didn't act as one responsible for souls. He didn't follow the teaching or the example of Jesus on this matter.1
Jesus told His disciples to obey the Scribes and Pharisees because they sit in Moses' seat.The seat of authority from God preserves unity and prevents men from introducing error. The Jews had the tools required to preserve the Revelation to Moses. Authority of Moses to preserve inerrancy and teach infallibly .After all that's the condition Jesus gave them.
The Protestants reject the tools God gave us to be stewards of His Church. Our separated brothers left us rejecting the divine gifts we need to Keep the Word inerrant as God delivered it If Luther had just done what Jesus did it's possible God would support his cause. Luther didn't teach obedience to the seat of authority established by God. Nope Luther lacked the virtue required of a Shepard of souls. Jesus didn't write out a list demands and nail it to the High Priests door as an ultimatum. God isn't the author of confusion or division that has done so much damage to the witness of His Church.
Sure. K.q
, The power of life, love and divine union is gonna initiate centuries of this shameful witness of death? No ,Jesus forbid divorce between two.
It's written! that Jesus would die rather than divorce.

Jim, your view of the division Luther initiated as a work of God I consider to be refuted entirely.

To continue; to use refuted arguments as if they haven't been refuted is rude and obstructs our goal to find agreement. I invite your rebuttal.

 

[RedFan]

The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These proclamations are accepted by Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?

Agreement on some matters (like the deity of the Son) does not require agreement on others (like Purgatory) as a matter of logical consistency. A slate of doctrinal pronouncements trumpeted by Rome can be accepted in part and rejected in part without sacrifice of logic. I am free to accept A, B and C while rejecting X, Y, and Z (particularly if X is the doctrine of papal infallibility when speaking ex cathedra).

It is worth emphasizing that Nicaea and Chalcedon were not "Vatican" councils in any sense. (Of the 300-odd bishops attending at Nicaea, I think only four were from the West, including a couple sent by Pope Sylvester.) They were ecumenical or "catholic" in the broader sense, without recognition of Roman primacy. "Divinity or Godhood of Christ" was declared at Nicaea and Chalcedon, while "Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory" were not (well, there actually was a pronouncement on Church Government at Nicaea, in Canon #6 -- and it does not support recognition of Rome's world-wide authority).

 

[Brakelite]

The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325,

Surely you aren't suggesting that of all the churches throughout the world that had been established by the 4th century, the holy Spirit waited until 325 to reveal who Jesus was? The other churches, from Britain to China, didn't know,?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ummmmmm, Moses didn’t lead His people into tens of thousands of different directions and call them “ONE” People .

Is twelve good enough for you, lol?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

How can you say that when you don't even have bishops??? What's the matter? Can't find the office of "bishop" in the Bible???

Who doesn't have overseers?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That does not answer the question. Here it is again:
Ferris, which of the 200 interpretations (This Is My Body) can you trace your doctrine from? Which interpretation did you branch from, since you deny 1500 years of authoritive consistent teaching???

THE BIBLE!
What is wrong with you? Why aren't you getting this????

 

[Ferris Bueller]

On the other hand, Catholics accept the voice of the Church as the supreme authority, and therefore reject outright the principle of religious individualism.

Yeah, and look at the foolishness they led you into.
You blindly follow your cult leaders. You are in a cult.
You have no choice but to believe what they tell you.

My independence from so-called leaders telling me what is truth and what is not was declared by the Apostle John right from the beginning.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Uh huh.

And tens of thousands of flawed men decided that they EACH heard the Holy Spirit teach them tens of thousands of different sets of doctrines until you have what you have today:
Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of their flawed, human founders.

And the SCARIEST part of this is that people like YOU claim that this confusion is the “Best” thjat the Holy Spirit can do.
John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS WE ARE ONE, I in them and you in me, THAT THEY MAY BECOME PERFECTLY ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

1 Cor. 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, AND THAT THERE BE NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU, but that you be united in the SAME MIND and the SAME JUDGMENT.

Ger, I don’t see ANYTHING here about the beauty of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions.
The Holy Spirit instructs the OBEDIENT in Christ . . .

I gave you three BIBLICAL reasons for division in the visible church and you ignored every one of them. You are in a cult.