Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

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CNKW3

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All I know is that God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness at the time of Genesis 15:6.
The Bible says....the sum of thy word is truth. Ps 119:160. You can’t just read Gen 15:6 and build an entire doctrine off of one generic verse. It’s not hard to understand when you consider everything that is said about Abraham.
How is Abraham’s life summed up? By one verse? No......
Genesis 26:4-5 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Why were these blessings going to come to pass? Because Abraham “believed God” only? No! It’s because he lived a life of obedience from start to finish. Abraham was a righteous man because he did what God said. Righteousness NEVER comes before obedience.
 

justbyfaith

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Answer the question.

Stranger
Simply that, Jesus is our substitute; and that nothing in scripture is going to contradict this truth.

In what way do you see the scripture in question contradicting this truth?

If you will answer my question, I will be able to see more clearly what your question is.

Because right now, I don't see at all how you think that this scripture contradicts the idea that Jesus is our substitute.

I mean, are you contending that the scripture in question ought not to be in the Bible?

If you want to cut it out of your Bible, take some scissors and get it over with.

You will certainly be judged for doing so (Revelation 22:19).
 
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justbyfaith

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The Bible says....the sum of thy word is truth. Ps 119:160. You can’t just read Gen 15:6 and build an entire doctrine off of one generic verse. It’s not hard to understand when you consider everything that is said about Abraham.
How is Abraham’s life summed up? By one verse? No......
Genesis 26:4-5 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Why were these blessings going to come to pass? Because Abraham “believed God” only? No! It’s because he lived a life of obedience from start to finish. Abraham was a righteous man because he did what God said. Righteousness NEVER comes before obedience.
Pimping his wife to the Egyptian Pharaoh was certainly obedience on Abraham's part.
 

justbyfaith

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Mind you, Sarah didn't have sex with Pharaoh (for the LORD put a stop to it); but Abraham received material blessings from Pharaoh in exchange for Abraham letting Pharaoh take her into his harem (because Abraham told him the half-lie that she was his sister (the full lie was that he implied she was not his wife; though she was his half-sister in that they had the same father and this was the half-lie).

The fact that it was questionably incestuous is also an indictment on Abraham's righteousness.
 
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CNKW3

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Pimping his wife to the Egyptian Pharaoh was certainly obedience on Abraham's part.
Did I say.....sinlessly perfect? Don’t think I did. And technically all he did was say, “she is my sister”. Which was a true statement.
Let’s play your game though...
If Abraham “believed God” in Gen 15:6 then why did he impregnate Hagar?
I guess he really didnt “believe” after all.
 

justbyfaith

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Did I say.....sinlessly perfect? Don’t think I did. And technically all he did was say, “she is my sister”. Which was a true statement.
Let’s play your game though...
If Abraham “believed God” in Gen 15:6 then why did he impregnate Hagar?
I guess he really didnt “believe” after all.
I'm certain that Abraham thought that the Lord would fulfill the promise not through Sarah.

Rom 4:18, Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19, And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


That which is in larger letters shows that Abraham never lost faith and that in executing a surrogate pregnancy he did not do so in any lack of faith towards God.

Also, are you contending that Genesis 15:6 is lying when it says that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness?

I am really interested in knowing whether you are trying to make the verse null and void through what you are preaching.


 

justbyfaith

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And technically all he did was say, “she is my sister”. Which was a true statement.
It was a half-truth.

You also have yet to consider that the incest between Abraham and Sarah is an indictment on Abraham's righteousness; if it were indeed through his works that Abraham was counted to be righteous.
 

Stranger

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I just did, in the post that you just responded to.

You don't like the explanation; I can understand that.

Nevertheless, the explanation is adequate.

Scripture
Simply that, Jesus is our substitute; and that nothing in scripture is going to contradict this truth.

In what way do you see the scripture in question contradicting this truth?

If you will answer my question, I will be able to see more clearly what your question is.

Because right now, I don't see at all how you think that this scripture contradicts the idea that Jesus is our substitute.

I mean, are you contending that the scripture in question ought not to be in the Bible?

If you want to cut it out of your Bible, take some scissors and get it over with.

You will certainly be judged for doing so (Revelation 22:19).

You gave no explanation.

You use (Deut. 24:16) to refute the imputation of God shown in (Rom. 5:13-14). You reject the imputation of Adam's sin to the human race, and therefore reject the imputation of the sin of the human race to Christ. (Rom. 5:13-14) is given to explain the importance of imputation...to explain (Rom. 5:12).

You have not explained (Rom. 5:13-14). You can't and won't because it destroys your error.

(Rom. 5:13-14) "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

The only reason men died from Adam to Moses was because of Adams sin. Not their own. They died due to Adam's imputed sin to them. To deny that is to deny the work of God in imputation. Which is really what you do anyway with the Righteousness of Christ.

Stranger
 

CNKW3

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I'm certain that Abraham thought that the Lord would fulfill the promise not through Sarah.

Rom 4:18, Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19, And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


That which is in larger letters shows that Abraham never lost faith and that in executing a surrogate pregnancy he did not do so in any lack of faith towards God.

Also, are you contending that Genesis 15:6 is lying when it says that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness?

I am really interested in knowing whether you are trying to make the verse null and void through what you are preaching.
No, what Abraham did was believe in his wife not God. God had given him direction up until then but he didn’t have the patience to wait for God. He followed the direction of his wife. This was not “by faith”. Faith comes through hearing the word of God not by hearing what your wife has to say.

Just because Abraham had instances of doubt. Gen 17:17,18 does not mean he wasn’t faithful.
this is my point! You are building a doctrine on one verse but the Bible describes a man who was faithful from start to finish. He didn’t become a man of faith in Gen 15:6. He was a man of faith long before that.
 

justbyfaith

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You reject the imputation of Adam's sin to the human race,

I believe that the sin DNA was transferred from Adam down to us; so that all men are sinners who sin; and that every man will die for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 is clear on this.

You have not explained (Rom. 5:13-14).

I have indeed explained it but you do not like the explanation that I have given.

Every man dies for his own sin; not for the sin of his father Adam. The only sense in which we die for Adam's sin is in that we inherit a sin nature from Adam and that makes every last one of us a sinner by heredity. But we do not die for Adam's sin.

Now there is a sense in which we do...in that the fruit eaten by Adam and Eve carried the DNA of sin and that this DNA was passed down to us by heredity...and therefore the fact that we are sinners is a direct result of Adam's first sin in eating of that tree.

The only reason men died from Adam to Moses was because of Adams sin. Not their own.

I disagree. Deuteronomy 24:16 shows that every man shall die for his own sin.

And you have not answered my question.

How does Deuteronomy 24:16 come against the idea of the substitution in your mind?

Because I don't see it as doing so.

No, what Abraham did was believe in his wife not God. God had given him direction up until then but he didn’t have the patience to wait for God. He followed the direction of his wife. This was not “by faith”. Faith comes through hearing the word of God not by hearing what your wife has to say.

Just because Abraham had instances of doubt. Gen 17:17,18 does not mean he wasn’t faithful.
this is my point! You are building a doctrine on one verse but the Bible describes a man who was faithful from start to finish. He didn’t become a man of faith in Gen 15:6. He was a man of faith long before that.

The servant of the Lord must not strive; and I think that I will take that advice at this point with you. I have given scripture that shows that Abraham did not waver in unbelief but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and was certain that what He had promised, He was able to perform. To be honest with you, the argument doesn't make a lick of difference to me; you can believe what you want to about it.
 

CNKW3

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I believe that the sin DNA was transferred from Adam down to us; so that all men are sinners who sin; and that every man will die for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 is clear on this.



I have indeed explained it but you do not like the explanation that I have given.

Every man dies for his own sin; not for the sin of his father Adam. The only sense in which we die for Adam's sin is in that we inherit a sin nature from Adam and that makes every last one of us a sinner by heredity. But we do not die for Adam's sin.

Now there is a sense in which we do...in that the fruit eaten by Adam and Eve carried the DNA of sin and that this DNA was passed down to us by heredity...and therefore the fact that we are sinners is a direct result of Adam's first sin in eating of that tree.



I disagree. Deuteronomy 24:16 shows that every man shall die for his own sin.

And you have not answered my question.

How does Deuteronomy 24:16 come against the idea of the substitution in your mind?

Because I don't see it as doing so.



The servant of the Lord must not strive; and I think that I will take that advice at this point with you. I have given scripture that shows that Abraham did not waver in unbelief but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and was certain that what He had promised, He was able to perform. To be honest with you, the argument doesn't make a lick of difference to me; you can believe what you want to about it.
None of this makes a lick of difference to you. Like “sin DNA”. There’s no such thing but you don’t care you’ll keep teaching it anyway.
 

marks

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But their sin was not imputed to them. (Rom. 5:13)

Stranger

yes, and therein is the difference between imputed sin and actual sin. you can be not charged with a crime if there isn't a law against it, but the ramifications of the act still exist.

It may not be illegal to shoot yourself in the head, but the bullet will still kill you. You've not committed a crime, but you're dead just the same.

Much love!
 

Stranger

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I believe that the sin DNA was transferred from Adam down to us; so that all men are sinners who sin; and that every man will die for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 is clear on this.



I have indeed explained it but you do not like the explanation that I have given.

Every man dies for his own sin; not for the sin of his father Adam. The only sense in which we die for Adam's sin is in that we inherit a sin nature from Adam and that makes every last one of us a sinner by heredity. But we do not die for Adam's sin.

Now there is a sense in which we do...in that the fruit eaten by Adam and Eve carried the DNA of sin and that this DNA was passed down to us by heredity...and therefore the fact that we are sinners is a direct result of Adam's first sin in eating of that tree.



I disagree. Deuteronomy 24:16 shows that every man shall die for his own sin.

And you have not answered my question.

How does Deuteronomy 24:16 come against the idea of the substitution in your mind?

Because I don't see it as doing so.

But (Rom. 5:13-14) proves your belief wrong.

You have not explained why did those die from Adam to Moses when God did not impute their sins to them. Still waiting.

(Deut. 24:16) does not discount or negate (Rom. 5:13-14). (Deut. 24:16) is speaking to a persons sins under the Law God gave to Israel. It is not speaking of God's move in His plan of salvation, that involves imputation.

(Deut. 24:16) does not come against the substitutionary death of Christ. Your attempt to use it to disprove imputation does. You say, based on (Deut. 24:16), that every man dies for his own sins. Well, you must reject then that Christ died for our sins.

Yes, you see it. You just ignore it.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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yes, and therein is the difference between imputed sin and actual sin. you can be not charged with a crime if there isn't a law against it, but the ramifications of the act still exist.

It may not be illegal to shoot yourself in the head, but the bullet will still kill you. You've not committed a crime, but you're dead just the same.

Much love!

No, you miss it entirely. They died not for their sins but because of the sin of Adam.

You are still trying to make those from Adam to Moses die because of their sins. And Scripture is clear, they did not. (Rom. 5:134-14) "...sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses...."

You are basing your belief on the act of the person and not the act of God as given us in Scripture. You are rejecting the doctrine of imputation as given in Scripture.

And, your illustration is dismal. It has nothing to do with imputation. And it is a crime to kill yourself. Save your hypocritical love for someone else.

Stranger
 
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