Why do we blame God?

[Robbie]

People like to blame others for their own faults, God happens to be the most convenient one to blame, after all, most who do blame God don't think HE is real, they just like to do the blame game, for example when the earthquakes happen here in Christchurch New Zealand, Where i live, almost everyone including a good amount of Christians, Blamed God or " God is judging us " but really, God didn't do nothing fo the SORT! the earth itself is giving out, because we as man is sucking it dry, something has to give, if we keep taking stuff out, whats left behind? nothing, so yea.. there ya go

LIKE

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Hey whitknuckle... I might only be 37 but by the time I was 18 I had already been living on my own for 4 years, dealt with watching my grandma and grandpa die right in front of my face, a heroin addict mom, her boyfriend who shot holes in our house and then blew his brains out, and every other bad bullshiz thing that went along with it... by the time I was in my mid 20s I had already gotten paid to travel the world, been on the cover of magazines, ridden 20 foot+ waves and almost died from an infection that was behind my eye and 2mm from my brain... I could go on and on about all the trials and life experiences of this and that I've gone through even in my thirties but what's the point? That would probably just turn into some battle of the egos which is worthless. The bottom line is I could seriously care less even if you found a scripture in the bible that said, "God wants satan to hurt you" It wouldn't mean anything to me... because my belief about the Father is based on knowing Him... and not on reading a book.

My Father delivers me from the enemy, not to him... you can believe different... and share your opinion so I can maybe understand you more but if you're trying to persuade me into believing my Father is in some way responsible for satan's wickedness you might as well give up. Based on my faith I'd have to reject the revelation of the Father that's in Jesus to do so.

And trust me dude... when the person that molested you stands before God it isn't gonna be God saying to them, "I allowed you to do it" It's going to be God saying, "You broke my Law and hurt my child"

And I could care less about Paul's thorn... I don't know the Father through Paul's thorn... I know the Father through Jesus Christ... and based on that revelation I know my Father delivers me from the enemy... not to him...

No battle of egos. LOL, we're the same age. I don't know why I thought you were 18 or 19.

So, why is it then you think these things happen?

PAULS THORNE WERE THE JEWS OF OLD

You think so? How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Rach1370]

Trying to tell me God's in some way responsible for satan's attacks on me is blaming God for satan's rebellion and wickedness... you might as well be trying to tell me that when I was a kid my Mom wanted to take me to the child molesters house and cruised and watched while he had his way with me because she thought it might be good for me. Here's the deal... I don't care what anyone says... I won't believe that about my righteous Father because I know Him and His character and He wouldn't do that just like I know my Mom and know she wouldn't do that.

I've heard all that nonsense ever since I accepted Jesus and men tried to set themselves up as my teacher and I now know it's all lies because I know my Father... He delivers from the enemy... not to him...

Hey Robbie. Okay. I get why you feel this way, and that's ok. I was never trying to say that God causes or is responsible for any evil in this world....hope that's not how you saw it even disagreeing with what I said. When it comes down to it really, this is not something that will interfere will how you love Jesus, so I don't think it matters. In the end, when we're with Jesus and we know more, I'm sure it will be clear to all of us.

None of this was God's plan, but I feel that He doesn't swoop in and stop all sin forever, wipe it away, because to do that would be to wipe out the human race. You're right Robbie, when you say that the evil we see comes from man, from Satan. Every day we see horror...what humans do to other humans. But every day another person opens their heart to Jesus....and so He waits to end it all.

I found this verse today....I think it sums it all up.....what do you think??

[12] Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. [13] Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. [14] But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
(James 1:12-15 ESV)

 

[TeamJesus]

it just goes to show, there is a case and an effect, everything we do, has an effect, weather its big or not, being Christian or not Christian does not matter, GOD will get the blame for almost everything that happen.

We as HIS children need to show HIS love, and if we don't have that, then we gotta get before HIM, and Jesus said " Take up your cross and follow me " its thats simple, why do we make it so hard to show HIS love to those who need to KNOW JESUS?

 

[Robbie]

Yeah Rach... I agree that God doesn't create negativity and also that we should stay steadfast under trial and proclaim God's blamelessness especially since we have the fullness of the revelation in Christ to destroy any misunderstanding.

The rule I try to follow is if some understanding I have of God disagrees with the revelation of the Father I've received in Jesus I throw it in the trash... because why would I hold an understanding I've achieved by looking at God through a veil over a revelation I've had by looking at God with the veil removed... face to face... if you've seen Him you've seen the Father.

 

[Robbie]

and by the way Rach... even though this is a tough topic and we don't agree eye to eye on everything, I really appreciate the way you've talked to me and not called me the devil or some other nonsense... you seem like a really nice person... our talk made me think of this line the writer of ephesians spoke...

till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Rach1370]

and by the way Rach... even though this is a tough topic and we don't agree eye to eye on everything, I really appreciate the way you've talked to me and not called me the devil or some other nonsense... you seem like a really nice person... our talk made me think of this line the writer of ephesians spoke...

till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Ephesians 4:13-16. Nice! Even being sinful, it's nice to know we have an aiming point for our lives, and a perfect role model to follow.
It's too easy to forget Jesus when we get caught up in 'right and wrong' doctrine. We too often place too much importance on being right, and not on the two greatest commands Jesus gave us: Love God and Love others.
As always, nice chatting to you Robbie.

 

[Robbie]

Word Rach... you as well.... may any misunderstanding either of us have be open to the light destroying it's darkness till the morning star has fully risen in both our hearts and the light makes no room for darkness... much ALOHA

 

[gregg]

No battle of egos. LOL, we're the same age. I don't know why I thought you were 18 or 19.

So, why is it then you think these things happen?



You think so? How did you come to that conclusion?

paul being well educated in the law knew it very well but the old jews couldn't understand this new way.trying to get paul to change back and see it thier way or look at it the way they understood they came against him everywhere. they were his thorne in the flesh and they would have plucked out thier own eyes for him to see it thier way

 

[aspen]

I tend to believe God forgave humanity the instant we sinned in the Garden. Then, He stretched out the incident, creating space and time, in order to teach us what His forgiveness really meant, and to teach us how to forgive each other. The only reason sin is allowed to exist is to teach us to love and forgive through the pain.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Okay, Here's some more thoughts after some prayer and research, this is what I think.


I don't blame God for anything. I do believe that God "allows" things to happen.

This world is ran by the devil and evil men following after their own ways. The end result is pain and destruction. God has promised to take it all away, and He will. God also has promised us a comforter which He gave us and we are comforted.

Since there is suffering in the world, even caused by the hands of the wicked, people outside of Christ will suffer. Some of those same people will later come to Christ. Is it not right that some of us who are believers would truely understand and relate to the tragidies the unbelievers have suffered?

Personally, people will turn away from those who can't sypathize with what happened. It's much better that we KNOW the suffering in order to help comfort and lead.

It seems a big deal that Paul (I believe it was) who said that Jesus was tempted in everyway that is common to man. Isn't it important for our sakes to know that Jesus has experienced what we have? It's a very important aspect of human relationships that we can understand and know exactly what someone else is going through. This seems particular for men, as we view bonding relationships by sharing experiences with someone else. (Such as sitting with your wife drinking the same drink) It seems well that for women too, that someone has experienced the same emotional properties as well. (Such as sitting with her husband sharing emotional bonds such as love or sadness)



My conclusion, is that God does allow suffering, but isn't the cause of it, but causes it to all work for the good of those that love Him, and rewards you for suffering for His Kingdom. As shallow as it may sound, The sufferings on this earth are nothing compared to eternity. If we suffer a little now, or even alot now, and that will allow us to relate and help someone overcome something, that is the power of God. Throughout the Bible God has allowed suffering in humans to show His glory and His mercy and to draw us near to Him. He's also used suffering as discipline.
The very many Martyrs around the world these days and in days past are evidence of this.

 

[Robbie]

I think we believe pretty close to the same whiteknuckle but the only word I really have a problem with is "allow"...

Here's an example... you have a 17 year old kid... you can't keep him locked in the closet forever and you have to give them their freedom so you send them out with some rules... don't drink, don't do drugs, etc... the kid goes out and gets a bottle of booze, slams some heroin, and gets a hooker... did you allow them to do it?

Simply put I don't believe God is allowing something when it's in direct opposition to His command... and how much of the troubles on this planet are caused by humanities rebellion to His command?

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I think we believe pretty close to the same whiteknuckle but the only word I really have a problem with is "allow"...

Here's an example... you have a 17 year old kid... you can't keep him locked in the closet forever and you have to give them their freedom so you send them out with some rules... don't drink, don't do drugs, etc... the kid goes out and gets a bottle of booze, slams some heroin, and gets a hooker... did you allow them to do it?

Simply put I don't believe God is allowing something when it's in direct opposition to His command... and how much of the troubles on this planet are caused by humanities rebellion to His command?

Okay, I see what you're saying.

Then, do you think God sets up the consequences for our actions or inactions?

 

[aspen]

I think we believe pretty close to the same whiteknuckle but the only word I really have a problem with is "allow"...

Here's an example... you have a 17 year old kid... you can't keep him locked in the closet forever and you have to give them their freedom so you send them out with some rules... don't drink, don't do drugs, etc... the kid goes out and gets a bottle of booze, slams some heroin, and gets a hooker... did you allow them to do it?

Simply put I don't believe God is allowing something when it's in direct opposition to His command... and how much of the troubles on this planet are caused by humanities rebellion to His command?

Hey Robbie,

I understand that people are responsible for the evil they produce, but how can you miss the fact that God has placed humanity in harm's way? The fact is, He placed us in a situation that is dangerous, both physically and spiritually, regardless of who is directly responsible for the evil. If I allowed my dogs to run around in my neighborhood and they were hit by a car - whose fault is that? I wasn't driving the car and I was simply allowing my dogs to exercise their freedom - they've seen cars before and I have taught them to wait at every corner before crossing the street during our walks together. I think it is obvious that I would be the person at fault for allowing my dogs to be involved in a dangerous situation, without the skills to make good decisions.

God doesn't have to be directly involved in hurting people - He decided to place us in a dangerous world with a primitive understanding of good and evil to navigate ourselves through moral situations that are beyond our capability - simply because we told Him we could handle it. My dogs would literally eat themselves to death if I allowed them to monitor their food intake.

Do you see how it is a bit short-sighted to exclude God from culpability, based on what we know about Creation and the Fall and human existence in our fallen state? This is why I have to believe that we simply do not have a full understanding of the situation because the story we do know implicates God.

 

[Robbie]

Nah Aspen... I actually see it as knowing my Father well enough not to blame Him for what He's not guilty of... such as causing humanity harm... since the beginning it was God giving mankind the way of life and people rejecting His way and choosing self destruction... in the garden... God gives man freedom and tells man what to do and what not ... but satan rebels against God... man follows satan's lead and man reaps the consequences of their actions... for man to blame God for that (which he tried to do) is retarded... God didn't cause them any harm... all the negativity was created by man and satan rebelling against God's will and not believing His Word... ever since that day our Father's been trying to deliver us from our own self destruction... my personal opinion is that to blame God for our self destruction is complete and total blind ignorance that's preached by people who don't really know Him... because when we really know the Father we stop accusing Him for what's evil... we must worship Him in the truth of who He is... and He's only good... as the revelation of Jesus Christ ripped apart the veil so we could clearly see so... to believe this is to overcome the wicked one... since satan's power from the beginning has been derived from him getting us to doubt the goodness of our Father.

I don't really want to go on to much more about this... people are going to believe what they want to believe... as for me I know God is only good and wants to deliver me from my enemies and not to them... as my Lord... the Word of God told me to pray... if people think Jesus told me to pray against God's will by saying deliver me from my enemies that's on them... but if you do believe Jesus is God's Word and would only tell us to pray for God's Will then it must be that it's our Father's heart to deliver us from our enemy and not to Him.

 

[TWC]

Is God incapable of stopping us from rebellion against Him? Is God incapable of seeing this rebellion beforehand? If He knows about it ahead of time, has the ability to stop it, and chooses not to intervene, then He has allowed it to happen.

 

[Robbie]

Those questions are worthless... because I don't know my Father through a perception created by asking myself philosophical questions... I know my Father through the revelation of Jesus Christ.... as far as those questions they're kind of like... "I mean didn't God give me the woman that was deceived by the serpent? Couldn't He have known beforehand and not given her to me? So He must have allowed it"... haha... no Adumb... God told you what not to do and you did it anyways because you decided to believe satan instead of Him... and the trial you now face is because you rebelled against Him... as every trial humanity has faced has been caused by our rebellion and doing what was forbidden... it's really simple.. the negative state humanity is in is caused by us doing what God forbid... not what He allowed.

We can't say God is allowing us to do something when He's told us not to do it... that's seriously some dangerous stuff... because we're basically blaming God for our evil...

But here's the deal... I'll stand before God and say, "Be merciful to us as we've suffered negative states based on us not doing what You said" and you can stand before God and say... "You're the one that let it happen" and we'll see which one goes over better... hah

One again... the negative state humanity is in is caused by us doing what God forbid... not what He allowed... period...

 

[aspen]

Nah Aspen... I actually see it as knowing my Father well enough not to blame Him for what He's not guilty of... such as causing humanity harm... since the beginning it was God giving mankind the way of life and people rejecting His way and choosing self destruction... in the garden... God gives man freedom and tells man what to do and what not ... but satan rebels against God... man follows satan's lead and man reaps the consequences of their actions... for man to blame God for that (which he tried to do) is retarded... God didn't cause them any harm... all the negativity was created by man and satan rebelling against God's will and not believing His Word... ever since that day our Father's been trying to deliver us from our own self destruction... my personal opinion is that to blame God for our self destruction is complete and total blind ignorance that's preached by people who don't really know Him... because when we really know the Father we stop accusing Him for what's evil... we must worship Him in the truth of who He is... and He's only good... as the revelation of Jesus Christ ripped apart the veil so we could clearly see so... to believe this is to overcome the wicked one... since satan's power from the beginning has been derived from him getting us to doubt the goodness of our Father.

I don't really want to go on to much more about this... people are going to believe what they want to believe... as for me I know God is only good and wants to deliver me from my enemies and not to them... as my Lord... the Word of God told me to pray... if people think Jesus told me to pray against God's will by saying deliver me from my enemies that's on them... but if you do believe Jesus is God's Word and would only tell us to pray for God's Will then it must be that it's our Father's heart to deliver us from our enemy and not to Him.

Well Robbie, like you said, people are going to believe what they are going to believe. You know I do not question your heart, but your reasoning on this topic is foggy. On a side note, it has always seemed strange to me that it is heretical to believe that people can be saved simply because they are related to a devout Christian, yet we have no problem claiming that mankind is damned because of the choice of two distant relatives. Like I said before, I understand that humans have introduced evil into the world through our actions, but it simply does not excuse God from placing us in harms way - even when it is our own fault. And once more, despite the evidence, I am choosing to believe that we are simply incapable of understanding what is really going on, but this does not mean that I have to close my eyes to the fact that God appears culpable based on what we know.

As far as I can tell, you are choosing to side with God, no matter what, and that is honorable, but it is not reasonable, based on the limited knowledge we have about creation and the history of humankind. I am a Forty-Niner fan (yes it has been a rough 20 years), which means I reserve the right to believe they are going to win the Superbowl every year - reality is meaningless when it comes to my team because I am a fan. I am not a fan of God - I am much more - I am an adopted son, made in His image. He created me with the capacity to reason and gave me limited knowledge to reason with, which means that I am called to suspend my judgment and disbelief, but I do not have to deny it. I doubt He expects us to deny the reality of science, history, or the reasonable conclusion of the Biblical account based on blind loyalty. On the other hand, I also recognize that it is prideful to grip our own ideas so tightly that we fail to see God's work in the world. I live life with a light-touch.

I hope this makes sense - it might be a bit jumbled because I tried to respond without chopping up your post. In any case, none of this really matters in the long run because we both love Jesus and we can have a good laugh about it someday in Heaven.


blessings

 

[Robbie]

I don't see me as having limited information because I believe the fullness of the revelation of our Father is in Christ and that revelation is what always makes me side with Him... so yeah.. you're kind of right in what you said about me...

Blessing to you as well buddy....

 

[aspen]

Robbie,

I understand that you are about to wrap up this conversation, but I want to explain why I think it is important to recognize the limitations of reason. Atheists and people hostile to Christianity and faith in general, describe their frustration with the supposed requirements of faith as 'being forced to leave your brain at the door' before entering church and listening to religious instruction; I call it cognitive dissidence. Regardless of the label, it is the 'fan mentality'; God is good so Christians are required to gloss over any doctrine that seems to suggest otherwise, in order to demonstrate our loyalty AND we are supposed to hold opposing ideas in our head by pretending they complement each other - 'God is Good' AND 'He commanded the Israelites to preform acts of genocide'; 'God commands us to love our neighbor unconditionally' AND 'God only saves those who follow Him'. As soon as we encounter anyone who points out discrepancies in our reasoning, rather than acknowledging the reality of their thought process, we are told to either moralize the situation by labeling the dissenting viewpoint as an attack on Christianity and dismiss the person as hostile because 'they are calling Jesus a liar' OR try to convince the person that they are crazy for thinking that there is a problem - "What is wrong with God requiring His people to love unconditionally AND His plan to torture sinners for eternity? They deserve it!' OR 'God makes the rules so He can act anyway He wants and remain Good'

As intellectually unsatisfying as this mind-bending reasoning may be, it is fine, if it allows a person to settle private concerns about doctrine and clears the way for the real task of the Christian life - justification and sanctification; the problem occurs when this anti-intellectual position is 1) Taught and imposed as a requirement for faith 2) Used as an attempt to convince nonbelievers of the reality of Christ. I also think it can do great damage to followers who have encountered abuse in their lives - for example, teaching the idea that we are worthless sinners - completely wretched and totally depraved AND that God blesses those who love Him AND that your lack of faith is the only reason you cannot understand these opposite viewpoints, rather than the reality of their experience - childhood sexual abuse, for example - God heals faithful followers immediately, right??

In addition, it sets young Christian people up for faith shattering failure when they encounter a nonbeliever who knows how to reason well - I remember when I presented my 'ironclad' understanding of the gospel, which I learned at youth group, as a kid, to my roommate in college who was an atheist; I was taught to be convinced of the indisputable nature of my Christian world view, based on the solid Biblical foundation I received from my church leaders. It only took a couple of hours for Steve to expose at least thirty-five contradictions in my reasoning and bring into question everything I held to be true. I was devastated because I was never taught ideas like 'we simply do not have all the answers' AND 'reason has limitations, which we should not be afraid to acknowledge' AND 'many people have good reasons for believing what they believe'. As painful as it was for me at the time, I gradually realized that God does not need a 'groupie' OR a mindless, 'Yes Man'; instead, He desires me to love AND not be afraid to acknowledge the difference between the reality of my experience and the reality of doctrine AND the limitations of reasoning. Now I choose to return God's love even when it doesn't seem logical and I feel no need to pretend otherwise or defend God or my decision to follow Him.

What I have realized is, cognitive dissidence (the anxiety produced when privately held beliefs do not match real world experience) often results in denial, crazy thoughts and feelings, and simply eats away faith. Over time, people will abandon faith and God in exchange for peace of mind - the relief from cognitive dissidence. Teaching people to deny their real world experience in favor of doctrine will result in an eventual meltdown AND the good news is we do not have to.


These are just some of my thoughts.

Peace