Why Do We Not Follow Ot Law?

[brionne]

Yes, I mean that. Faith in Messiah = Christian.

what does having faith in the promised Messiah have to do with the Mosaic law?

Im sure you'd agree that Abraham had faith in the Messiah and yet which law code did he live by? Was it the Mosaic laws?? Im sure you know he didnt.

So you have to separate the mosaic law from your idea of how to practice your faith. If Abraham could practice his faith without the Mosaic law, then so can we.

 

[marksman]

"Ordinances not commandments"- by whose definition? How do you support this?

Try these for size......

Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and your mother.

Commandments: entole. Authoratitive, prescription.

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Same greek word and meaning.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.

Same greek word and meaning.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Same greek word and meaning.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord

Notice commandments AND ordinances. If they were one and the same thing two words would have been unecessary.
Ordinance: diakaiona. Statute or decision.

Eph 2:15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,

Ordinances: dogma. Civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical

As you can see from this small selection, the greek indicates different words with commandments and ordinances and different meanings.

 

[JarBreaker]

Jarbreaker, Please don't use words to me that Jesus used to the Pharisees. Maybe you are guilty of what you falsely accuse me of? Maybe you want to swallow a gnat? I have every right to post here....just like you. And I can prove with scripture when someone accuses me of posting something wrong, in this case TexUs didn't think that the scripture I used was correct, since the newer version kept out out a word the older version used. So it is important to show another scripture that has the same meaning.
Now it sure isn't for you to judge as not important. Would you like it if I went behind things you posted and said what you said to me here. We are in a discussion group that posts to each other if they want, when they want. And if you are getting dizzy, stay off the computer awhile, but don't tell me to.

using that phrase wasnt an attack on you ... people get hung up and argue the same thing over and over and over, often it is over ONE WORD that can be taken to mean many things and even many different things in the same verse


people get touchy and upset I wont even bother posting my merry-go-round picture in here

 

[Anastacia]

Try these for size......

Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and your mother.

Commandments: entole. Authoratitive, prescription.

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Same greek word and meaning.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.

Same greek word and meaning.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Same greek word and meaning.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord

Notice commandments AND ordinances. If they were one and the same thing two words would have been unecessary.
Ordinance: diakaiona. Statute or decision.

Eph 2:15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,

Ordinances: dogma. Civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical

As you can see from this small selection, the greek indicates different words with commandments and ordinances and different meanings.

hmmm....can you elaborate more on this, and say what you think it means?

using that phrase wasnt an attack on you ... people get hung up and argue the same thing over and over and over, often it is over ONE WORD that can be taken to mean many things and even many different things in the same verse


people get touchy and upset I wont even bother posting my merry-go-round picture in here

I didn't get hung up on one word. I came across a scripture with the word in question in it, and the scripture was very much relevant to the topic, and that scripture had not yet been brought in. I was excited to share that with TexUs. And I'll stop going over something when I'm ready to. How about you?

 

[JarBreaker]

I didn't get hung up on one word. I came across a scripture with the word in question in it, and the scripture was very much relevant to the topic, and that scripture had not yet been brought in. I was excited to share that with TexUs. And I'll stop going over something when I'm ready to. How about you?

Ana, again I will say it wasnt an attack on you so much as pointing out that people tend to do what I said ... I comment without reading the majority of the post at times, I wasnt actually aware of just what you were replying to, or what you may have said originally or even it was you I was replying to.

By no means did I mean for it to sound as if you should drop it or not finish til you were done --- I see where it appeared that way and I do offer apologies and will be more careful commenting when I havent read much of what im addressing.


Actually this is funny, I dont point stuff out like that without knowing im guilty of it as well, we get in automatic mode sometimes when we are passionate about a subject and I meant to fault noone for it.

But how bout this, I was just in Isaiah and read something that goes along with this - praise Yah, even when I open my big mouth and unintentionally cause harm He can show us something.

Isa. 28:24-28

Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, [and] doth teach him.
Caraway is not threshed with a sledge, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cummin; caraway is beaten out with a rod, and cummin with a stick.
Grain must be ground to make bread; so one does not go on threshing it forever. Though he drives the wheels of his threshing cart over it, his horses do not grind it.



Again, I am sorry --- also, I switched to NIV 1/2 way through that, KJV had "fitches" for caraway and I didnt like it

 

[Rach1370]

Hey! I just want to jump in and comment on one thing I read....

TexUs said:
What I disagree with is seeming confliction. He's abolished the barrier of law (Ephesians). Yet says he hasn't come to abolish it (Matthew 5).
????????????????????????????????

He hasn't come to abolish, but fulfill! The Mosaic law always pointed to the need of Jesus, to His ultimate sacrifice for us! Now that He has brought the New covenant, the Old is no longer needed as it was.
Let me use a rather crude analogy, If I can. Lets say I'm making a cake...I add all the ingredients, mix it. Do I then throw it out? Nope, I stick it in the oven so it can become what it's meant to!

Jesus didn't dismiss the Old covenant, he didn't throw it out, but when He died He completed it, He became what was always meant by it....the ultimate sacrifice for sin and atonement for it so we may be see just by God.

By trying to live by the Old covenant, (to jump back to that analogy) it's like looking at that awesome cake, but still trying or wanting to eat the dough. The Old covenant is completed! Jesus is the wonderful and ultimate end to that covenant, bringing a New one that we should follow with love and joy, not wishing for the old!

Does that make sense? I realise the 'cake' analogy is dumb, but I couldn't think of anything else that explained what I meant!

 

[TexUs]

So you have to separate the mosaic law from your idea of how to practice your faith. If Abraham could practice his faith without the Mosaic law, then so can we.

I'm talking about justification and not "what we should do", as obviously, the law doesn't save.

As you can see from this small selection, the greek indicates different words with commandments and ordinances and different meanings.

My question was not: Is there a difference.
My question is how do you separate the two? What do you base, "oh, this is a regulation", and "oh, this is a commandment" on?

He hasn't come to abolish, but fulfill!

Yes, that's what one text says.
Matthew 5:17: I have not come to abolish
Ephesians 2:15: by abolishing the law

 

[Rach1370]

I'm talking about justification and not "what we should do", as obviously, the law doesn't save.


My question was not: Is there a difference.
My question is how do you separate the two? What do you base, "oh, this is a regulation", and "oh, this is a commandment" on?

Yes, that's what one text says.
Matthew 5:17: I have not come to abolish
Ephesians 2:15: by abolishing the law

Hey TexUs. Its a good question, and one that can be answered by looking at the context of each passage.
In Matt 5:17 Jesus is talking to Jews, about how He is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law.
Ephesians 2:15 is different...Paul is talking to the gentiles. He is still talking about Mosaic Law, but as his audience is a gentile one, the context is completely different. You see, the Mosaic law included many commandments that served to separate Israel from the other nations. Thus the law was a “dividing wall” (see v 14) which Christ has abolished or rendered powerless both by fulfilling it and by removing believers from the law's condemnation.

So you see nothing is contradicted!

 

[TexUs]

Hey TexUs. Its a good question, and one that can be answered by looking at the context of each passage.
In Matt 5:17 Jesus is talking to Jews, about how He is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law.
Ephesians 2:15 is different...Paul is talking to the gentiles. He is still talking about Mosaic Law, but as his audience is a gentile one, the context is completely different. You see, the Mosaic law included many commandments that served to separate Israel from the other nations. Thus the law was a “dividing wall” (see v 14) which Christ has abolished or rendered powerless both by fulfilling it and by removing believers from the law's condemnation.

So you see nothing is contradicted!

Yes, I think you have a good thought there.
By fulfilling the law he removed the barrier...

 

[Anastacia]

TexUs,

Do you have a beard that you don't trim at the sides? Do you wear a tefillin? If you say no to those questions, can you tell me why you don't do those things now? Maybe the answer you ask everyone is already in you? Or, maybe you are going to start wearing a tefillin, and doing all the old law? I know there are men of the Jewish faith who still wear them.

 

[Duckybill]

I can't imagine anyone wanting to be bound to the Law of Moses.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]"If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, [sup]7 [/sup]of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, [sup]8 [/sup]you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; [sup]9 [/sup]but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. [sup]10 [/sup]And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. [sup]11 [/sup]So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

 

[marksman]

hmmm....can you elaborate more on this, and say what you think it means?

If you listen carefully to what christians say in conversation or even from the pulpit, you will find there faith is primariy cliche driven. They will say things like "Jesus Christ is Lord" whether he is or not is quite another thing. Another example is "Jesus loves you" which is just as well because we don't have the time to do so.

The cliche relating to this subject is "I am not under law, I am under grace" and most of the time they submit themselves to denominational and religious law that governs the life of the church. Saying this usually means that I can pick and choose those things that I wil obey in scripture and the things I won't obey. If I don't like what I am called to obey I claim "I am not under law, I am under grace."

We are ALL under a law of some kind. which one depends on us. It says that the LAW of the spirit of life has set me free from the LAW of sin and death. Both are governed by law, not by I will make my decision as we go along.

I believe that the law of sin and death is the one that prevents us from obtaining salvation by what we do. That was the law of ordinances that the Jews were compelled to fulfil to be acceptable to God. In other words, by living a law fulfilled life, albeit one of sin and death, they could be made righteous before God.

The Law of the Spirit of life is the one that conquors sin and death and gives us new life in Christ. We don't have to keep the 612 ordinances that the Jews did under the old covenant. We are free by grace to enjoy the law of the spirit of life that sets us free.

Logic will tell you that this is not refering to the 10 commandments. If it did, then it would be OK to steal, or murder, or lie etc because we would no longer be under the law. Under the old covenant the 10 commandments are a threat. You keep them or else..... Under the new convenant, they are a promise. You will keep them because....

Because the new covenant is one of grace and love, they give us the power to keep the 10 commandments, which if you think about it is an integral part of holy living. So when Jesus said, If you love me keep my commandments, he was saying in fact, if you love me you WILL keep my comandments, all 10 of them. Because ours is a realtionship of love, we have no difficulty in keeping them. They are not bondage as some would suggest. They bring freedom as not murdering or lying or stealing doesn't bring you into bondage, it sets you free as the law of the spirit of life says.