Why Does God Damn People To Hell If He Is All Loving?

[aspen]

In the scriptures you posted I am not seeing anything about the unredeemed being separated , that it will be too late, escaping God's holiness, fleeing to hell. Is there possibly some other scriptures that helped you form this paradigm?



So what are God's just judgments?

Are people their own judge?

You are right - I did not include the verses about God separating the sheep from the goats - but you are aware they are in the Bible. I guess my point is three fold

1. the unredeemed remain sinful.

2. being sinful in the presence of a holy God is torture.

3. according to scripture, Hell is certainly mentioned - I choose to view it according to God's mercy rather than His judgment - yet, I admit it is the same thing from the viewpoint of the damned

4. the damned are beyond God's help, without annihilation

I admit that I am speculating - scripture is not explicit about Hell. However, I think it is complete enough to suggest Hell is eternal..

 

[logabe]

it is a good thing God has not raised you up to re-translate His words.

that is just bad work. i suffered through this decades ago, when the fad started in which every pastor and biblical student had to inject greek into their sermons every week. people need to submit to the Holy Spirit when they work with God's word.

arch...sorry you feel that way and no God hasn't raised me up
to re-translate His Words but a simple study on words that were
translated 1500 years ago would help us to submit to the Holy
Spirit in a proper perspective. We can believe that the KJV is the
translation without mis-translations but I perfer to find out for my-
self.

Let us, for the moment, concede to the opposition. Let us agree
with them that aionios can mean either endlessness or a limited
period of time. If that were the case, then every passage which
uses this term will be interpreted according to the bias of the
translator. All the passages that deal with aionios judgment can
mean either endless judgment or age-abiding judgment,
depending upon how we wish to understand it.

If this were the case, then it would be impossible to prove EITHER
view by using the Biblical passages that talk about aionios
judgment. We must then rely totally upon other Bible passages to
prove either view.

Many scholars do not believe that there is a single passage where
aionios MUST always mean endlessness. However, I do recognize
that there are passages where the word seems to imply endlessness.
For this reason, I am willing to concede the point for the sake of
argument. Conceding this point in no way diminishes the force of our
argument, because the Bible teaches the Restoration of All Things
from Genesis to Revelation without relying upon the word aionios.

I can prove that God will save all men by showing that the divine law
mandates a Jubilee, which is a limit to all judgment. We do not need
to rely upon the word aionios.

I can prove that God will save all men by the passages in the New
Testament where Jesus came to save not only us, but “the whole
world” (1 John 2:2). We do not need to rely upon the word aionios. We
rely instead upon the phrase “the whole world.”

I can show it by Paul's writings, who said that all things (ta panta, “the all”)
were created by Christ and will be reconciled to him as well (Col. 1:16-20).
In this, we rely upon the phrase, ta panta, which is defined by the context
as meaning the created universe.

We can show it again in Paul's writings, when he said that “as in Adam
all die, even in Christ will all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22). Even as ALL
die in Adam, so will ALL be made alive in Christ. We do not need to use
aionios to prove this.

We can go to the last book of the Bible, where John sees all of creation
praising God in Rev. 5:13,

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth
and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I
heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever
[aionas ton aionon, “for the ages of the ages”].

This passage uses the phrase aionas ton aionon, but our argument
does not rest upon that phrase, but upon the earlier phrase, “every
created thing.” In these few passages there are many ways in which
God's great Restoration of creation is expressed and established.

Thus, from a clear-headed perspective, one can only conclude that
God intends to bring all creation back under His dominion and will
lose nothing in the end. The blood of Jesus to save His creation is
more powerful than the sin of Adam was in its fall. God will be the
big Winner in the end—not the Big Loser who has lost 99 percent
of creation to the wiles of the devil.

Now...that's good news!

Logabe

 

[ThyWordisTruth]

So will any be sent against their will?

Man has two choices: Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't really use the word 'will' as in freewill, because its not freewill. If it were we could do whatever we wanted, like God.

 

[jiggyfly]

Man has two choices: Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't really use the word 'will' as in freewill, because its not freewill. If it were we could do whatever we wanted, like God.

So then, do you believe that everyone that goes to hell wants to go there?

Now...that's good news!

Yes indeed Logabe.

 

[Selene]

So then, do you believe that everyone that goes to hell wants to go there?

Anyone who goes to Hell chose to go there. Adam and Eve was in the Garden of Eden and they were happy. They had everything they needed and more. They were in harmony with God and they had eternal life, but through their free will, they also chose to disobey God. The fallen angels also had free will. They know what it was like to be in Heaven; yet, they chose to fall from grace. They made that choice because the angels also have free will. The difference between man and angels is that man have never been to Heaven (the same place as the angels). They were in the Garden of Eden. Honestly, I have no idea where the Garden of Eden is located because from the Bible, it appears it is somewhere on the earth. But after their sin, they were banished from the Garden (just as Lucifer was banished from Heaven). So, whereever the Garden of Eden is, it must be a place very close to Heaven. Maybe it's paradise. Who knows??? But the point is....yes, a person who goes to Hell is there because he chose to be there. If one can reject the Garden of Eden, then one can also reject Heaven. Afterall, we already have atheists like Christopher Hitchens who rejected God.

 

[BaldJohn]

God is Light, God is pure. He can not have sin around or with Him. This is why Jesus asked His Father why He forsuke Him when on the cross. Jesus had the sins of the world upon himself, and the Father Had to distance Himself from that.

Also, when you are forgiven of your sins, your sins are removed from you as far as the east is from the west, and they are forgotten. This shows again the removal of sin from Gods presence.

God does not damn us to hell. In fact He desires that none should perish, but have everlasting lfe. We choose where we go by the choices we make in life. God had to create a seperation in death, because He will not allow any sin unto Himself. He did all the work for us, out of love. All we have to do is choose.

Read the gospels with a open heart and a prayer asking for God to show you His Son. The Word comes alive to the beleiver.

Also, death is eternal. I think it makes everyone, even christians squeemish, to think of torment day in and day out in a lake of fire. How could it not? But reffrences in the bible speak of things like the 'smoke of their torrment acends forever...' Yet, if you accept Christ the Lord, you dont have to worry about this. And you begin to see a modivation for sharing the saving grace of God, and the Savior Jesus Christ.

God bless you all

 

[jiggyfly]

God is Light, God is pure. He can not have sin around or with Him. This is why Jesus asked His Father why He forsuke Him when on the cross. Jesus had the sins of the world upon himself, and the Father Had to distance Himself from that.

Also, when you are forgiven of your sins, your sins are removed from you as far as the east is from the west, and they are forgotten. This shows again the removal of sin from Gods presence.

God does not damn us to hell. In fact He desires that none should perish, but have everlasting lfe. We choose where we go by the choices we make in life. God had to create a seperation in death, because He will not allow any sin unto Himself. He did all the work for us, out of love. All we have to do is choose.

Read the gospels with a open heart and a prayer asking for God to show you His Son. The Word comes alive to the beleiver.

Also, death is eternal. I think it makes everyone, even christians squeemish, to think of torment day in and day out in a lake of fire. How could it not? But reffrences in the bible speak of things like the 'smoke of their torrment acends forever...' Yet, if you accept Christ the Lord, you dont have to worry about this. And you begin to see a modivation for sharing the saving grace of God, and the Savior Jesus Christ.

God bless you all

So man's will trumps God's will?

 

[tomwebster]

So man's will trumps God's will?

In this case yes, God will not force anyone to love Him.

 

[jiggyfly]

In this case yes, God will not force anyone to love Him.

We disagree, I believe God is sovereign.

 

[Robbie]

I don't see it as God's ever damned people to hell but always tried to save them from it...

Since the Garden of Eden when God said, "Don't do it or you'll die"

To the Revelation of Jesus when He said, "God did not send His Son to condemn the world but to save it because it's already condemned"

And why is it condemned?

Not because of God... but because of ourselves... so the way I see it is from the Garden to Now, God has always only been trying to save us... mainly from ourselves.

 

[tomwebster]

We disagree, I believe God is sovereign.

Yes God is sovereign, but His Sovereignty does not overrule His Holiness or His Justice.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes God is sovereign, but His Sovereignty does not overrule His Holiness or His Justice.

Why would it? Do you believe that God's sovereign will is not holy or just???

 

[tomwebster]

Why would it?

What is the definition of those terms, His Sovereignty, His Holiness, His Justice. Maybe we should start a new topic for this so we don't override the OP.

 

[jiggyfly]

I don't see it as God's ever damned people to hell but always tried to save them from it...

Since the Garden of Eden when God said, "Don't do it or you'll die"

To the Revelation of Jesus when He said, "God did not send His Son to condemn the world but to save it because it's already condemned"

And why is it condemned?

Not because of God... but because of ourselves... so the way I see it is from the Garden to Now, God has always only been trying to save us... mainly from ourselves.

I like this kind of thought provoking post. We see all through the scriptures(NT especially) the need for dying to self and crucifying self. Tis why this life is full of fiery trial and if there be any rebellion left in self after this life is over hell will finish the job until every knee bows.

What is the definition of those terms, His Sovereignty, His Holiness, His Justice. Maybe we should start a new topic for this so we don't override the OP.

Good idea, start a new thread I'll join in.

 

[aspen]

Man has two choices: Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't really use the word 'will' as in freewill, because its not freewill. If it were we could do whatever we wanted, like God.

Don't you think life is a bit more complicated than choosing between Heaven and Hell? BTW, I think we can do whatever we want within the limits of our nature. IMO life sure would be awful if we had to live through all the pain and evil for 60-80 years just to make one right choice - Heaven. Especially, since the Bible seems to indicate that most people will have to live through the same pain and evil just so they can make the popular wrong choice - Hell.

Don't you think there has to be more to our redemption than just one choice? Especially since we have such a long life. Perhaps, God is teaching us to love, like we did in the Garden - teaching us to be fully human once more - teaching us what it meant for Him to forgive us by teaching us how to receive and give the gift of forgiveness.

blessings

 

[Joshua David]

Man has two choices: Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't really use the word 'will' as in freewill, because its not freewill. If it were we could do whatever we wanted, like God.

Tried by fire,

I do not believe that the choice is between Heaven or Hell, it is between serving God or wanting nothing to do with Him. If you choose to serve God, then you will do what is required to establish a relationship with him. You will serve him. If you do this, then God blesses you with many blessings, including Heaven, and glorified body, so that you can enjoy his presence for all of eternity. If you don't want anything to do with him, and even if it is not his will, and it will break his heart, he will honor that choice and withdraw his presence from you for all of eternity. And since every good thing comes from him, Hell is the eternal result of being separated from him for all eternity.

In eternity there will be two types of people. Those that say to God, "Thy will be done." And the ones that God will say to them, "Thy will be done."

So man's will trumps God's will?

[font="tahoma][size="2"]Forced love is not love at all. God clearly states in his word that he has put a choice before us, Life or Death, and then tells us to choose Life. For man to have no free will is to say that Man has no choice. It was God's will for man to willingly choose him, to willingly love him. In order for us to willing choose to love him, then there must be the possibility of not choosing to willing love him. To say otherwise is to regulate the human race to the moral equivalent of a robot, since a robot will do whatever it is programed to do, it has no free will. This diminishes man. Man was made in God's image, and I personally believe that part of being in God's image is being an agent of free will. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]For man to have no choice, then Jesus died in vain, this diminishes Jesus sacrifice, which diminishes God's grace. [/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]The question that we must answer is not "Could God have created a race who had no choice to serve him?". The question should be "Did he." And I think that there is plenty of evidence that man has the capability of not serving God, both in the bible and in the world.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Joshua David[/size][/font]

 

[logabe]

Tried by fire,

I do not believe that the choice is between Heaven or Hell, it is between serving God or wanting nothing to do with Him. If you choose to serve God, then you will do what is required to establish a relationship with him. You will serve him. If you do this, then God blesses you with many blessings, including Heaven, and glorified body, so that you can enjoy his presence for all of eternity. If you don't want anything to do with him, and even if it is not his will, and it will break his heart, he will honor that choice and withdraw his presence from you for all of eternity. And since every good thing comes from him, Hell is the eternal result of being separated from him for all eternity.

In eternity there will be two types of people. Those that say to God, "Thy will be done." And the ones that God will say to them, "Thy will be done."





[font="tahoma][size="2"]Forced love is not love at all. God clearly states in his word that he has put a choice before us, Life or Death, and then tells us to choose Life. For man to have no free will is to say that Man has no choice. It was God's will for man to willingly choose him, to willingly love him. In order for us to willing choose to love him, then there must be the possibility of not choosing to willing love him. To say otherwise is to regulate the human race to the moral equivalent of a robot, since a robot will do whatever it is programed to do, it has no free will. This diminishes man. Man was made in God's image, and I personally believe that part of being in God's image is being an agent of free will. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]For man to have no choice, then Jesus died in vain, this diminishes Jesus sacrifice, which diminishes God's grace. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]The question that we must answer is not

"Could God have created a race who had no choice to serve him?".

The question should be "Did he." And I think that there is plenty of evidence that man has the capability of not serving God, both in the bible and in the world.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Joshua David[/size][/font]

I think it's a matter of understanding the Sovereignty of God and the authority of
man.

Let's look at the case of Joseph and his brothers. Joseph's brothers maliciously
sold him as a slave, and he was taken to Egypt. One might argue that Judah—by
his own free will—came up with the idea of selling Joseph. The rest of the brothers
then exercised their free will by agreeing to this plan. The only one who had no free
will in this was Joseph himself.

In Egypt, Joseph was soon falsely accused by his master and thrown into prison
by his master, Potiphar, who did this by his own free will. Finally, however, he
interpreted Pharaoh's dreams and was elevated to the highest position in the
land under Pharaoh. Eventually, he was reunited with his family and invited them
to live in the best part of Egypt. Seventeen years later their father died, and
Joseph's brothers became afraid that Joseph would now take vengeance upon
them for mistreating him according to their own free will. Genesis 49:19-21 gives
his response:

19 But Joseph said to them, Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place?
20 And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for
good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many
people alive.
21 So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little
ones. So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Joseph recognized that events had occurred on two levels—by man's authority
and by God's sovereignty. The brothers acted according to their will, thinking
it was their own idea to sell Joseph as a slave in Egypt. Joseph certainly
recognized the will of his brothers on that lower level, and saw that God had
worked in their hearts, judging them and correcting them until they repented
of their deed. Yet the brothers were responsible only as far as they had
authority.

Joseph also clearly showed that God was ultimately responsible for it. That
is, God had exercised His sovereign will to influence Joseph's brothers to
sell him to slave traders. No one is responsible beyond his level of authority
or sovereignty. If God was ultimately responsible for the actions of Joseph's
brothers, then this proves that God has not relinquished any of His sovereignty.

Man will be held accountable for his level of authority; but God also holds
Himself accountable for His level of sovereignty. And this is why God's
judgments upon mankind are not infinite in duration, but are aeonian, or
“age-abiding,” as Young's Literal Translation reads. Rotherham's The
Emphasized Bible uses the term “age-during” to translate aeonian. This
word means “pertaining to an eon, that is, an age.”

The story of Joseph is a good illustration of how God's sovereignty does not
contradict man's authority. Both concepts are true. But we must know the
difference between sovereignty and authority, and how authority is limited
in its power, for therein lies the key to understanding the real issue.

Logabe

 

[Joshua David]

I think it's a matter of understanding the Sovereignty of God and the authority of
man.

Let's look at the case of Joseph and his brothers. Joseph's brothers maliciously
sold him as a slave, and he was taken to Egypt. One might argue that Judah—by
his own free will—came up with the idea of selling Joseph. The rest of the brothers
then exercised their free will by agreeing to this plan. The only one who had no free
will in this was Joseph himself...

Man will be held accountable for his level of authority; but God also holds
Himself accountable for His level of sovereignty. And this is why God's
judgments upon mankind are not infinite in duration, but are aeonian, or
“age-abiding,” as Young's Literal Translation reads. Rotherham's The
Emphasized Bible uses the term “age-during” to translate aeonian. This
word means “pertaining to an eon, that is, an age.”

and

This concept of the eons, or ages, is obscured by translating zoen aionion
as “life everlasting” and kolasin aionion as “everlasting punishment.”
(Matthew 25:46). The fact is that neither is “everlasting.” Certainly, immortality
itself is life that never ends. But “age-during life” points specifically to AN AGE
when some believers will enjoy the blessings of immortal life. And “age-during
judgment” points specifically to AN AGE of judgment for unbelievers

.



[font="tahoma][size=2]OK I am with you so far.. but explain this.. The Great White throne judgement that happens AFTER 'the Messianic Age" or "the Age" is where everyone who is not saved receives their final judgement, so how does this measure up to your interpretation. Also notice in the book of Rev.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size=2]Rev 20 [/size][/font] [sup]10[/sup] [b][u]And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/u][/b]
[b][u]
[/u][/b]
[sup]11[/sup] Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [sup]12[/sup] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [sup]13[/sup] The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [sup]14[/sup] Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [b][u][sup]15[/sup] Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.[/u][/b]



[size="4"]If the beast and the false prophet had been thrown in the lake of fire, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life, was thrown into the lake of fire, then how can you say that their punishment is any different?[/size]


Joshua David

 

[jiggyfly]

[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"][font="tahoma] [/font][/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Forced love is not love at all. God clearly states in his word that he has put a choice before us, Life or Death, and then tells us to choose Life. For man to have no free will is to say that Man has no choice. It was God's will for man to willingly choose him, to willingly love him. In order for us to willing choose to love him, then there must be the possibility of not choosing to willing love him. To say otherwise is to regulate the human race to the moral equivalent of a robot, since a robot will do whatever it is programed to do, it has no free will. This diminishes man. Man was made in God's image, and I personally believe that part of being in God's image is being an agent of free will. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]For man to have no choice, then Jesus died in vain, this diminishes Jesus sacrifice, which diminishes God's grace. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]The question that we must answer is not "Could God have created a race who had no choice to serve him?". The question should be "Did he." And I think that there is plenty of evidence that man has the capability of not serving God, both in the bible and in the world.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Joshua David[/size][/font]

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death can't, and life can't. The angels can't, and the demons can't. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can't keep God's love away. Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

 

[aspen]

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death can't, and life can't. The angels can't, and the demons can't. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can't keep God's love away. Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

I am not sure God's love and Hell are mutually exclusive.