Why does Jesus seem to condemn longer prayers used to please others and be accepted by them?

[MatthewG]

Matthew 6:5

 

[amadeus]

@MatthewG

If a long prayer consists of vain and/or idle words it is missing the point of praying, of even controlling our tongue:

Mt 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Jas 1:26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain

 

[Zachariah]

To be pleasing and accepted of man comes from pride and ego.

 

[MatthewG]

To be pleasing and accepted of man comes from pride and ego.

Earlier today, my thoughts are how much i do not trust people all that well i tend to be rather guarded, and some things that people do different than me, religously im not so sure if what is being expounded unto them is truthful or not.

I worry about falling into traps, and perhaps that is why my guard is always up.

 

[Lambano]

Why does Jesus seem to condemn longer prayers used to please others and be accepted by them?

Because God has to listen to our B.S.?

When we pray, are we trying to communicate with God, or trying to impress each other (and glorify ourselves) with how holy and pious we are?

 

[MatthewG]

Hmm thank you for sharing your insights, lambano.

 

[MatthewG]

@MatthewG

If a long prayer consists of vain and/or idle words it is missing the point of praying, of even controlling our tongue:

Mt 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Jas 1:26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain

What is vain again? Jesus mentions not to pray in vain or like repetive and he said like pagans do? What is that exactly? How do pagans pray exactly? Always wonder that, thank you john, or anyone else who may hsve insightz.

 

[Zachariah]

Earlier today, my thoughts are how much i do not trust people all that well i tend to be rather guarded, and some things that people do different than me, religously im not so sure if what is being expounded unto them is truthful or not.

I worry about falling into traps, and perhaps that is why my guard is always up.

It always comes down to balance. Being able to hold an idea in your mind without accepting nor rejecting it is key. This is the act of decernment.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus challenged his people and us also to be honest about our motives. He challenged the Pharisees to consider from whom they expected a reward: God or the people. From his perspective, it appeared that the Pharisees were pretending to seek God's favor and praise, but in reality, they were seeking favor and praise from the people instead. Thus Jesus says, "you already got your reward."

Review Matthew Chapter 6 in its entirety. The following is a sample of the general principle.

Matthew 6:1-3

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.​

​

“So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,​

Jesus called the Pharisees "hypocrites" which comes from Greek theater. The "hypocrite" was the actor that held a mask up to his face to play the character in the story. Jesus understood that the Pharisees weren't actually righteous; they were actors, pretending to be righteous people, like an actor in a play. For them, it was all about optics. What does a righteous person look like?

Christians can fall into that trap also. We can easily look around and observe how other Christians act and mimic behaviors that we see in others. We can develop a script over time, answering the question, "How does a good Christian act and behave"? We can easily be tempted to become like the Greek actor, putting on a mask, and pretending to be a good Christian for others to see.

From whom are we seeking our praise?

 

[Lambano]

What is vain again? Jesus mentions not to pray in vain or like repetive and he said like pagans do? What is that exactly? How do pagans pray exactly? Always wonder that, thank you john, or anyone else who may hsve insightz.

βατταλογέω (Battalogeo, "vain repetitions") may well include what we've done with "The Lord's Prayer" in the immediately following verses. Reciting the same words over and over like a magic spell without thinking of what they mean. Praying for show. (But no, I'm not a cynical man.)

Sorry; I'm one of those guys who likes to look up the Greek words in Blue Letter Bible and see what they mean. Some people aren't into that. That's cool.

βατταλογέω

1. to stammer
2. to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.

I can think of many a public prayer I've sat through that would fall into that category. But before I get on my high horse, I've done it too and I know it. I remember praying a really flowery prayer with all kinds of embellishments and bells and whistles and getting back the distinct impression that God was telling me, "Look, I'm not impressed with your b***s***. Just talk to me."

Works for me.

Even though I'm probably still doing it wrong.

 

[Robert Gwin]

βατταλογέω (Battalogeo, "vain repetitions") may well include what we've done with "The Lord's Prayer" in the immediately following verses. Reciting the same words over and over like a magic spell without thinking of what they mean. Praying for show. (But no, I'm not a cynical man.)

Sorry; I'm one of those guys who likes to look up the Greek words in Blue Letter Bible and see what they mean. Some people aren't into that. That's cool.

βατταλογέω

1. to stammer
2. to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.

I can think of many a public prayer I've sat through that would fall into that category. But before I get on my high horse, I've done it too and I know it. I remember praying a really flowery prayer with all kinds of embellishments and bells and whistles and getting back the distinct impression that God was telling me, "Look, I'm not impressed with your b***s***. Just talk to me."

Works for me.

Even though I'm probably still doing it wrong.

You know the answer Matt, Jesus said:
(Matthew 6:1-8) . . .“Take care not to practice your righteousness in front of men to be noticed by them; otherwise you will have no reward with your Father who is in the heavens. . . .5 “Also, when you pray, do not act like the hypocrites, for they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the main streets to be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need even before you ask him.

 

[CadyandZoe]

βατταλογέω (Battalogeo, "vain repetitions") may well include what we've done with "The Lord's Prayer" in the immediately following verses. Reciting the same words over and over like a magic spell without thinking of what they mean. Praying for show. (But no, I'm not a cynical man.)

Sorry; I'm one of those guys who likes to look up the Greek words in Blue Letter Bible and see what they mean. Some people aren't into that. That's cool.

βατταλογέω

1. to stammer
2. to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.

I can think of many a public prayer I've sat through that would fall into that category. But before I get on my high horse, I've done it too and I know it. I remember praying a really flowery prayer with all kinds of embellishments and bells and whistles and getting back the distinct impression that God was telling me, "Look, I'm not impressed with your b***s***. Just talk to me."

Works for me.

Even though I'm probably still doing it wrong.

I agree with you Lambano.

At the same time, there is a place for public prayer. Public prayer can be pedagogical. The leader of the prayer is informing the congregation concerning what is important.

The disciples, for instance, asked Jesus how to pray and Jesus gave us the Lord's Prayer. In essence, Jesus was teaching his disciples to focus on what is important. It's as if Jesus is saying, "The following issues should always be on your mind and heart . . . God's kingdom, forgiveness, bread, etc."

Now, I don't think Jesus meant for us to repeat it all the time. But the subject matter should be on our minds and hearts all the time.

@MatthewG

 

[amadeus]

What is vain again? Jesus mentions not to pray in vain or like repetive and he said like pagans do? What is that exactly? How do pagans pray exactly? Always wonder that, thank you john, or anyone else who may hsve insightz.

More than one has already answered you on this. The key is that we are really to be communicating with God. In our conversations with people we may repeat things to clarify for emphasis. It does need to come from our heart. No sense trying to fool God. He already knows our hearts, but He does want us to talk with Him and as our Father, ask of Him what is needed. There is a big difference, especially early in our walk, between what we want and what we need. God knows what we need always. Do we?

 

[MatthewG]

Great comments from everyone, if anyone else even if has been already said and you wanna speak what is on your heart, please feel free to share as well.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Matthew 6:5

View attachment 33023

Considering this morning your question of:

Why does Jesus seem to condemn longer prayers used to please others and be accepted by them?​

To me, after reading in context, I don’t think Jesus is condemning a brotherhood of love, or of acceptance (joy with others) but condemning that isn’t what the long prayers are about …but instead a religious show. (Not for the benefit of other person but to build up self?) If it is Jesus condemning the desire to be accepted or prayers that others do no evil or no wrong against their brother…then why does Paul, when they are calling Paul a reprobate, Pauls prayer is they be made perfect in the bond of Love even though he appears unto them as one who is reprobate. (Paul saying
2 Corinthians 13:7-8 Now I pray to God (not striving about with words to no profit (vain words) (but to the subverting of the hearers—shun profane and vain babbling for they will increase unto more ungodliness) —but Paul says “Now I pray to God” that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved(before men), but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

When you pray,
You are not to be like hypocrites,
For they love to stand, in the synagogues and on street corners so that they be seen by men.

To me what Paul speaks of in their being made whole, complete, perfecting of the saints …is not his being seen by men but their being seen—Made Alive—in the sight of God.

The passage where Paul is praying they do no wrong, that they do what is honest in the sight of God… begins with examining the heart. “Examine your Faith”

Go unto your inner room,
Pray to your Father,
Who sees what is done in secret~ is this not that God sees the inner room of the heart, and what is hidden in secret? Who is He that brings things out from the inner room(the man of the heart), who is He which reveals what is done in secret; bringing the things hidden in darkness and in secret out unto the Light to be seen and destroyed by the Light? Where men won’t come unto the Light that their deeds be known, made manifest, loving the darkness rather than the Light.

Not with meaningless repetition as the gentiles,
Supposing to be heard by their many words (put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about with words to no profit (vain words) but to subverting of the hearers. Shun profane and vain babbling (they’re calling Paul as one who fails and a reprobate (profane and vain babbling why? What is motive of what they gable on about Paul? and how Christ does not speak in Paul?), for they will increase unto more ungodliness (by their accusations are they not trying to spur or provoke Paul to hate and ungodliness of having to defend himself against their attacking his relationship with Christ?); instead Paul tells them His desire is they increase towards God.

So do not be like them, for your Father KNOWS WHAT YOU NEED before you ask Him. (Not shouting at you in all caps, but to me that is so significant!) that God the Father knows what you need! That He knows what I need before I ask. That God the Father knew what Peter needed. What Paul needed. What the Gentiles needed. Some may say that is God knows I need that job. I’m not down playing that because I do need a job. But to me “God the Father knows what you need before you ask” goes deeper than God the Father knowing Vickie needs a job. It is (to me) God knows I (desperately) need these things:
2 Peter 1:4-11Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never fall: [11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The passages you asks about leads into: pray this way: our Father which is in heaven, Hallowed be (to make Holy, consecrate, sanctify) Your Name
….deliver us from Evil, For Yours is the Kingdom and Power and the Glory. —if we would look at it when Paul prays they do no evil even though he appears to them as one who lacks (fails)…Paul is praying to be delivered from evil. In their doing no evil, doing what is honest. (Much like Jesus Christ prayed unto drops of blood “Not my will father, but Your Will Father.) Paul also was asking (Praying) to be delivered from evil in “I pray you do no evil, do what is honest.”

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Much of the audible group prayers that take place in church groups seem (to me) forced and amount to nothing more than flattery and vain show.

The most annoying one is the one that starts with, “Lord, give me the words to speak…”

I’m thinking, Don’t you have a Bible???

But then they proceed to change what the Bible says with the words that “were given to them”…

What a mess!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Considering this morning your question of:

Why does Jesus seem to condemn longer prayers used to please others and be accepted by them?​

To me, after reading in context, I don’t think Jesus is condemning a brotherhood of love, or of acceptance (joy with others) but condemning that isn’t what the long prayers are about …but instead a religious show. (Not for the benefit of other person but to build up self?) If it is Jesus condemning the desire to be accepted or prayers that others do no evil or no wrong against their brother…then why does Paul, when they are calling Paul a reprobate, Pauls prayer is they be made perfect in the bond of Love even though he appears unto them as one who is reprobate. (Paul saying
2 Corinthians 13:7-8 Now I pray to God (not striving about with words to no profit (vain words) (but to the subverting of the hearers—shun profane and vain babbling for they will increase unto more ungodliness) —but Paul says “Now I pray to God” that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved(before men), but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

When you pray,
You are not to be like hypocrites,
For they love to stand, in the synagogues and on street corners so that they be seen by men.

To me what Paul speaks of in their being made whole, complete, perfecting of the saints …is not his being seen by men but their being seen—Made Alive—in the sight of God.

The passage where Paul is praying they do no wrong, that they do what is honest in the sight of God… begins with examining the heart. “Examine your Faith”

Go unto your inner room,
Pray to your Father,
Who sees what is done in secret~ is this not that God sees the inner room of the heart, and what is hidden in secret? Who is He that brings things out from the inner room(the man of the heart), who is He which reveals what is done in secret; bringing the things hidden in darkness and in secret out unto the Light to be seen and destroyed by the Light? Where men won’t come unto the Light that their deeds be known, made manifest, loving the darkness rather than the Light.

Not with meaningless repetition as the gentiles,
Supposing to be heard by their many words (put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about with words to no profit (vain words) but to subverting of the hearers. Shun profane and vain babbling (they’re calling Paul as one who fails and a reprobate (profane and vain babbling why? What is motive of what they gable on about Paul? and how Christ does not speak in Paul?), for they will increase unto more ungodliness (by their accusations are they not trying to spur or provoke Paul to hate and ungodliness of having to defend himself against their attacking his relationship with Christ?); instead Paul tells them His desire is they increase towards God.

So do not be like them, for your Father KNOWS WHAT YOU NEED before you ask Him. (Not shouting at you in all caps, but to me that is so significant!) that God the Father knows what you need! That He knows what I need before I ask. That God the Father knew what Peter needed. What Paul needed. What the Gentiles needed. Some may say that is God knows I need that job. I’m not down playing that because I do need a job. But to me “God the Father knows what you need before you ask” goes deeper than God the Father knowing Vickie needs a job. It is (to me) God knows I (desperately) need these things:
2 Peter 1:4-11Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never fall: [11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The passages you asks about leads into: pray this way: our Father which is in heaven, Hallowed be (to make Holy, consecrate, sanctify) Your Name
….deliver us from Evil, For Yours is the Kingdom and Power and the Glory. —if we would look at it when Paul prays they do no evil even though he appears to them as one who lacks (fails)…Paul is praying to be delivered from evil. In their doing no evil, doing what is honest. (Much like Jesus Christ prayed unto drops of blood “Not my will father, but Your Will Father.) Paul also was asking (Praying) to be delivered from evil in “I pray you do no evil, do what is honest.”

Or more simply put: why does Jesus condemn long prayers used to please others and be accepted by them? to me it is because Jesus condemned their vain babbling (empty words) spoken against Paul calling him as one who fails, and a reprobate. Which was a falsehood against a brother. Vain babbling. Paul’s prayer to the Father was not vain, speaking in Christ that they be made whole in Christ. Made Alive in the sight of God. For their benefit. Persuaded of better things in them. Which Jesus doesn’t condemn.

​

 

[MatthewG]

Much of the audible group prayers that take place in church groups seem (to me) forced and amount to nothing more than flattery and vain show.

The most annoying one is the one that starts with, “Lord, give me the words to speak…”

I’m thinking, Don’t you have a Bible???

But then they proceed to change what the Bible says with the words that “were given to them”…

What a mess!

Thank you for your honesty here.

Like I am not trying to judge what people do because it's Jesus who states to be weary and leery of these types of prayers, and it is good for people to also see what he has to say about these things too.

There have been many times just in the past two days, I have read, where a person will receive certain rewards their own due, but that is all they will ever get.

 

[MatthewG]

Or more simply put: why does Jesus condemn long prayers used to please others and be accepted by them? to me it is because Jesus condemned their vain babbling (empty words) spoken against Paul calling him as one who fails, and a reprobate. Which was a falsehood against a brother. Vain babbling. Paul’s prayer to the Father was not vain, speaking in Christ that they be made whole in Christ. Made Alive in the sight of God. For their benefit. Persuaded of better things in them. Which Jesus doesn’t condemn.

​

It's all right there for people to see on display that he does condemn them, he was always hard on the Pharisees, whom were religious teachers of the law.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a quick short prayer with a group of people at all, before a bible study or something.

But there is something more to it when it's long worded and become vain.

I am not sure what that would sound like exactly... Either way. Just an empty prayer that means nothing?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's all right there for people to see on display that he does condemn them, he was always hard on the Pharisees, whom were religious teachers of the law.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a quick short prayer with a group of people at all, before a bible study or something.

But there is something more to it when it's long worded and become vain.

I am not sure what that would sound like exactly... Either way. Just an empty prayer that means nothing?

I don’t know. It did help me though on what are profane, vain words. Speaking lies about someone to accuse them of being less than yourself, outright showing you think more of yourself than others. I don’t think I’ll ever pray out loud in a crowd to God … please help the low-life sinners that are not like us. I think I’d run from saying that out loud wondering why I had to say that out loud in the first place for others to hear my boast. Just thinking …

Curious do you see the angst in Paul’s struggles that they are accusing him as being false …and His desiring they speak and seek truth?