Why hell must exist

[Paul Christensen]

Personally I'm not into universalism or identityas a universalist. Recently I had to ask what this was.

The Spirit revealed this to me a number of years ago directly, not from the scriptures or any of the bibles. And it has changed my view of the Creator and His created beings.

My question is, seeing that the Holy Spirit inspired the written Scriptures, declaring that everything God has to say to mankind is written in the Bible, how come the Holy Spirit gives new revelation to people that is not already written in the Scriptures?

I tend to go by the Scripture that says, "Believe not every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God or not." The definitive test for me is through a study of the Scriptures.

Also, I have learned that having a mental view of God and Christ which is not clearly shown in the Bible and the Gospels, amounts to idolatry - having a god of imagination rather than the God of the Bible.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Where will we find that mentioned in the Bible?

First of all, “the rich man and Lazarus” is a parable, not a literal account. Taken literally it is ridiculous. Do you imagine that “heaven and hell” are within speaking distance to each other? And that a drop of water on a man’s tongue would cool them in a blazing fire? The scenario is clearly figurative.

The rich man is in “hades”, which is not any kind of “hell”...it is the grave.
The “grave” in Hebrew is “Sheol” and as it says in Eccl 9:5 10, it shows that the dead are in an unconscious state in that place.
Jesus also said of his friend Lazarus, that he was “sleeping” and that he was going to “awaken” him (John 11:11-14).....wherewas Lazarus before Jesus raised him?.....he are out of his grave because it is the place where the dead ”sleep”. They are not consciously existing somewhere apart from their body.

Since “hell” (hades) is the grave, those awaiting a resurrection, don’t know anything until Jesus calls them out of those graves. (John 5:28-29) No one has a choice about going to the grave....it’s somewhere we all go.

“Gehenna” OTOH is also translated as “hell”, but it is a place where death is permanent. It s an “everlasting punishment” to be cut off from life forever. Why does it have to involve everlasting torture in flames?

The choice is actually “life or death”...it never was “heaven or hell”. What was Adam told if he ate the forbidden fruit?.....only that he would die...nothing more.

Can you tell me what purpose is served by such an awful place?
God’s law to Israel involved penalties that were in line with the severity of the crime. The highest penalty under the law was death...no punishment involved torture of any kind. And all less serious crimes always had the option of repentance and forgiveness....and compensation was paid to the victim.

Christendom’s “hell” is the work of a sadist....not a God of love.

None of Jesus' parables mention people by name. But the Rich man and Lazarus does. This is why the story is presented as a true story. The hell presented in the story is not the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation. Also, the Rich man can see across where Lazarus is in Paradise. We know that Paradise is real because Jesus told the dying thief, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

So the Bible talks about two separate places where the spirits of dead people God. Unbelievers go to what is called "sheol" and believers go to Paradise. The former to await the final Judgment, the latter to await the Rapture where they rise up to meet the Lord in the air. Believers in Christ will not be at the final Judgment, because they have been judged already by declaring that they are condemned sinners needing Jesus as Saviour.

 

[Aunty Jane]

None of Jesus' parables mention people by name. But the Rich man and Lazarus does.

Does that automatically make it real scenario?

This is why the story is presented as a true story. The hell presented in the story is not the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation.

The “hell” mentioned in this parable was “hades” as it is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew “Sheol” translated in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”.
The Jews were never taught about a hell of eternal conscious punishment.....that was a pagan Greek adoption....they were taught that “Gehenna” was a place of eternal death.

Also, the Rich man can see across where Lazarus is in Paradise. We know that Paradise is real because Jesus told the dying thief, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Yes, the thief was promised “paradise” but not heaven. A last minute change of heart did not earn this man a place in heaven....as a king and priest (Rev 20:6)....those who merited that promise had to prove their faith under various trials before their choosing and sealing took place. This man was promised a resurrection along with all those whom Jesus will call from their graves to life restored on earth. (John 5:28-29)

So the Bible talks about two separate places where the spirits of dead people God. Unbelievers go to what is called "sheol" and believers go to Paradise.

That is not biblical at all, though it seems to be widely accepted by the majority.
The truth is that there are no “spirits of the dead” because the “soul” and the “spirit” are two entirely different things. Contrary to popular belief, the “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing creature...it is what Adam “became” when God started him breathing. (Gen 2:7) “The breath of life” was actually the “spirit” or animating force that is given at birth, and ceases when we die. Animals in the Bible are called “souls” and they breathe the same way that we do and die the same death as we do. (Eccl 3:18-20)

We have to remember that Jesus and his apostles, and in fact all of the Bible writers were Jewish, and wrote with Jewish beliefs that came from their Hebrew Scriptures. There are no immortal souls in the Hebrew Scriptures because it was not taught in them, so Jesus would not have promoted something outside of the Scriptures he used. They were the only Scriptures in existence at the time.

The former to await the final Judgment, the latter to await the Rapture where they rise up to meet the Lord in the air. Believers in Christ will not be at the final Judgment, because they have been judged already by declaring that they are condemned sinners needing Jesus as Saviour.

This is another empty claim....we have yet to experience the “great tribulation” and whatever you consider the “rapture” to be, it is simply the final number of the elect who are still on earth when Christ returns as judge, who will be transformed to meet Christ, and be established in the Kingdom in which they were chosen to be “kings and priests” with Jesus. (Rev 20:6)

They are raised “first” because then the kingdom will be complete and ready to take over rulership of this earth...(foretold in Dan 2:44)...taking us back to God’s first purpose for the earth and the living creatures upon it....we were to be the caretakers here.....we alone, made in God’s image, so that we would represent his rulership on the earth as he would want it.

The end of this world and all its disobedient ones, has to take place before the Kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray for, can ”come” so that God’s will can “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Does that automatically make it real scenario?

The “hell” mentioned in this parable was “hades” as it is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew “Sheol” translated in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”.
The Jews were never taught about a hell of eternal conscious punishment.....that was a pagan Greek adoption....they were taught that “Gehenna” was a place of eternal death.

Yes, the thief was promised “paradise” but not heaven. A last minute change of heart did not earn this man a place in heaven....as a king and priest (Rev 20:6)....those who merited that promise had to prove their faith under various trials before their choosing and sealing took place. This man was promised a resurrection along with all those whom Jesus will call from their graves to life restored on earth. (John 5:28-29)

That is not biblical at all, though it seems to be widely accepted by the majority.
The truth is that there are no “spirits of the dead” because the “soul” and the “spirit” are two entirely different things. Contrary to popular belief, the “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing creature...it is what Adam “became” when God started him breathing. (Gen 2:7) “The breath of life” was actually the “spirit” or animating force that is given at birth, and ceases when we die. Animals in the Bible are called “souls” and they breathe the same way that we do and die the same death as we do. (Eccl 3:18-20)

We have to remember that Jesus and his apostles, and in fact all of the Bible writers were Jewish, and wrote with Jewish beliefs that came from their Hebrew Scriptures. There are no immortal souls in the Hebrew Scriptures because it was not taught in them, so Jesus would not have promoted something outside of the Scriptures he used. They were the only Scriptures in existence at the time.

This is another empty claim....we have yet to experience the “great tribulation” and whatever you consider the “rapture” to be, it is simply the final number of the elect who are still on earth when Christ returns as judge, who will be transformed to meet Christ, and be established in the Kingdom in which they were chosen to be “kings and priests” with Jesus. (Rev 20:6)

They are raised “first” because then the kingdom will be complete and ready to take over rulership of this earth...(foretold in Dan 2:44)...taking us back to God’s first purpose for the earth and the living creatures upon it....we were to be the caretakers here.....we alone, made in God’s image, so that we would represent his rulership on the earth as he would want it.

The end of this world and all its disobedient ones, has to take place before the Kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray for, can ”come” so that God’s will can “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

Everything that Jesus did and taught was consistent. He never mentioned anyone by name in any of his parables. Therefore to have a parable mentioning a named person is inconsistent. The fact that He did name Lazarus in the story is to show us that hell and Paradise are real places, where the spirits of unrighteous and righteous people go when they die, to await the final Judgment.

The rest of your post is too long and involved for me to respond.

 

[Button]

And that we won't. No one will perish. All will repent and be reconciled to our Creator.

I agree with you.
God told us he does not wish that anyone would perish in their fallen state of sin.
When Jesus descended into Sheol and professed his power to reconcile sinners to God,he departed there having made an exit from its confines for all who were trapped.

He now has those keys.
Revelation 1:18: "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades, and of Death".

I feel Hell doesn't make sense when we learn through Jesus that he is here because of God's plans and will for humanity and our salvation.

If God doesn't want anyone to perish in sin,why would he leave a place like Hell to be open to receive those hr chooses to put there?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Everything that Jesus did and taught was consistent. He never mentioned anyone by name in any of his parables. Therefore to have a parable mentioning a named person is inconsistent. The fact that He did name Lazarus in the story is to show us that hell and Paradise are real places, where the spirits of unrighteous and righteous people go when they die, to await the final Judgment.

I hope you understand that Lazarus was a very common name in Bible times....it means nothing unless you want to read something into that parable that isn’t there.

To whom was that parable directly aimed?..

Luke 16:14-15....ESV...
“The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him. And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.”

The Pharisees represented “the rich man” and the “lost sheep” were represented by the spiritually impoverished ones, whom the rich man neglected, hoping for a few crumbs to fall from his table. Jesus was not sent to the religious leaders of Israel, but to those “lost sheep”. And with his preaching, they responded with great joy, accepting him as their savior.

The death of both was a change in status....the position of favour with God (Abraham’s bosom) was bestowed on the beggar, whilst the Pharisees lost it. In that state, they cried out in anguish because Christ’s preaching had showed them up to be the biggest hypocrites in existence. Jesus sentenced them to “Gehenna”! (Matt 23:33) Not a place of eternal conscious torment...but of eternal annihilation.

The rest of your post is too long and involved for me to respond.

The rest of my post was an explanation of how the Bible shows Christendom’s teachings to be false.
I can understand you not wanting to address them.
Why not take them one point at a time? No one said you had to address them all at once....

 

[One 2 question]

My question is, seeing that the Holy Spirit inspired the written Scriptures, declaring that everything God has to say to mankind is written in the Bible, how come the Holy Spirit gives new revelation to people that is not already written in the Scriptures?

The same Holy Spirit is in the follower of the Christ, the child of God. He inspires me all the time, from external means, nature, brothers and sisters in Christ. And He inspires me from within, where He lives. We have a very personal relationship.

I tend to go by the Scripture that says, "Believe not every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God or not." The definitive test for me is through a study of the Scriptures.

That's good for you my friend. And unless or until Holy Spirit tells you to do otherwise it's best you continue to do this. But for many others of us the Spirit of the Creator has chosen to communicate with us through dreams, visions, prophets, teachers, angels and by many other means including God's words that have been written down.

Also, I have learned that having a mental view of God and Christ which is not clearly shown in the Bible and the Gospels, amounts to idolatry - having a god of imagination rather than the God of the Bible.

Again, you better stick with what They have shown you in the bible. But for others of us we receive whatever revelations Christ has given through His Spirit. We will not reject these precious gifts.

 

[One 2 question]

I agree with you.
God told us he does not wish that anyone would perish in their fallen state of sin.
When Jesus descended into Sheol and professed his power to reconcile sinners to God,he departed there having made an exit from its confines for all who were trapped.

He now has those keys.
Revelation 1:18: "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades, and of Death".

I feel Hell doesn't make sense when we learn through Jesus that he is here because of God's plans and will for humanity and our salvation.

If God doesn't want anyone to perish in sin,why would he leave a place like Hell to be open to receive those hr chooses to put there?

I don't know. We are told that hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

God revealed this too. That in an age to come all those in the lake of fire will be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and will be reconciled to their Creator.

 

[XtraPercept]

I don't know. We are told that hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

God revealed this too. That in an age to come all those in the lake of fire will be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and will be reconciled to their Creator.

Fire means something entirely different to readers today than what it meant to the authors of Scripture.

Today it is scary destruction, pain, and the means by which a tripartite deity inflicts everlasting torment on its adversaries whom it will not permit to die.

When John used the Greek expression "phos ton anthropon" to call the Word, God, and God's Word the "light of men", fire was implicit in it. It's the root of our word "phosphorous", meaning something which shines forth as fire to illuminate, which was the primary use of the so called material.

For the Ancients, fire was light and life and comfort and safety and warmth and food prep and purification and purging and testing and refining and so many glorious things which are lost to the meaning of the idea of "fire" today.

The truth is only understood by seeking deeply for the Spirit.

God is Good. There is no evil in Him. Torment is evil. God does not torment anyone.

 

[Button]

I don't know. We are told that hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

God revealed this too. That in an age to come all those in the lake of fire will be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and will be reconciled to their Creator.

Yes.

 

[amigo de christo]

Real love can only result from real choices. Real choices must have real consequences.

Much love!

The LOVE OF GOD points soley to JESUS CHRIST as the absolute only way and means one can be saved .
IT desires the death of none
And it would have reminded all that unbeleif is but a second death sentence .
HE who beleives in ME is not condemned
but he who believes not is condemened already ...........for he beleives not ...........
Agape love desires the death of none but rather their repentance .
Agape love does not make excuses for sin but would also have corrected those in sin .
AS we see GOD t hrough the prophets doing
as well as CHRIST JESUS
as well as the apostels . Fake love makes excuses for sins and will not correct sin and error
YE shall not hate your neighbor in your heart you shall in any way REBUKE him and NOT ALLOW sin upon him .
The ecumenical HARLOT is a liar . And spouts only the love of a whore and many buy her love .
BUT NOT THE SHEEP . NO sir , NOT the sheep for JESUS has the sheep
and the LOVE OF GOD is shed upon their hearts by the HOLY GHOST . ITS ALL OUT WAR in these final hours .
Many run to the love of a harlot and thus will face the second death at their end .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes.

You might want to read revelation again .
It never implies that .
And be sure and read the final warning
towards the end about adding too or taking from that book . My advice is
SIMPLY PREACH JESUS to all and DO SO NOW . do not offer up false hope to any .
All who beleive on JESUS will not face the second death .
SHOW THEM the way out , dont air condition it .

 

[Button]

You might want to read revelation again .
It never implies that .
And be sure and read the final warning
towards the end about adding too or taking from that book . My advice is
SIMPLY PREACH JESUS to all and DO SO NOW . do not offer up false hope to any .
All who beleive on JESUS will not face the second death .
SHOW THEM the way out , dont air condition it .

I believe as I am led by my Father's Truth.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The same Holy Spirit is in the follower of the Christ, the child of God. He inspires me all the time, from external means, nature, brothers and sisters in Christ. And He inspires me from within, where He lives. We have a very personal relationship.

That's good for you my friend. And unless or until Holy Spirit tells you to do otherwise it's best you continue to do this. But for many others of us the Spirit of the Creator has chosen to communicate with us through dreams, visions, prophets, teachers, angels and by many other means including God's words that have been written down.

Again, you better stick with what They have shown you in the bible. But for others of us we receive whatever revelations Christ has given through His Spirit. We will not reject these precious gifts.

I have some really crazy dreams at times which I wouldn't dare to interpret. The frustrating ones is when the narrative is really interesting but my cat gets up on the bed and licks my nose and meows in my face, waking me up and ruining the ending. Once I dreamed that I was preaching and the congregation walked out on me. What would that tell me about my preaching ministry? :-)

I have recurring dreams where (once I was a school teacher) I needed to get to class but couldn't find the classroom. Others when I am driving my car and the brakes won't work. Just last night I was in my car in the dream and the power steering wouldn't work. Other times I have dreamed of being late for work, and have been relieved when I woke up and realised it was a dream. My dreams are sometimes so vivid it is just like being there.

But I don't try to ascribe them to the Holy Spirit, nor do I try to interpret them. I think they come from my imaginary fears.

I follow the example of the Bereans, who, when they heard Paul's preaching, they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether what he was preaching was correct. I think that there are so many voices and false prophets, that it is very difficult to discern what is true or false. For me, the only secure way of finding out is through searching the Scriptures to see what Holy Spirit has said in them. Otherwise receiving new revelations, dreams, visions, etc., without verifying them through the written Scriptures is like skating on thin ice. I prefer not to take that chance.

 

[amigo de christo]

I believe as I am led by my Father's Truth.

well when one is led to do exactly what we were warned not to DO in the book of revelation
Thats when its time to cease it . Always remember we live not by feelings and emotions
but by the Spirit , every word of GOD is truth .

 

[Marvelloustime]

You might want to read revelation again .
It never implies that .
And be sure and read the final warning
towards the end about adding too or taking from that book . My advice is
SIMPLY PREACH JESUS to all and DO SO NOW . do not offer up false hope to any .
All who beleive on JESUS will not face the second death .
SHOW THEM the way out , dont air condition it .

@amigo de christo

 

[Button]

well when one is led to do exactly what we were warned not to DO in the book of revelation
Thats when its time to cease it . Always remember we live not by feelings and emotions
but by the Spirit , every word of GOD is truth .

I appreciate your opinion on the matter.

 

[One 2 question]

I have some really crazy dreams at times which I wouldn't dare to interpret. The frustrating ones is when the narrative is really interesting but my cat gets up on the bed and licks my nose and meows in my face, waking me up and ruining the ending. Once I dreamed that I was preaching and the congregation walked out on me. What would that tell me about my preaching ministry? :-)

I have recurring dreams where (once I was a school teacher) I needed to get to class but couldn't find the classroom. Others when I am driving my car and the brakes won't work. Just last night I was in my car in the dream and the power steering wouldn't work. Other times I have dreamed of being late for work, and have been relieved when I woke up and realised it was a dream. My dreams are sometimes so vivid it is just like being there.

But I don't try to ascribe them to the Holy Spirit, nor do I try to interpret them. I think they come from my imaginary fears.

Again, it seems like you have been taught and convinced to find truth in the bibles. YOU better stick with that source unless the Spirit of Truth uses another means.

You have determined that dreams aren't your thing so don't go to that empty or toxic well.

I follow the example of the Bereans

Good for YOU. Go for it if this benefits YOU.

Personally visions are our go to. The Spirit of Christ communicates to me primarily by means of visions.

Dreams aren't our thing either.

who, when they heard Paul's preaching, they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether what he was preaching was correct.

I occasionally search out the scriptures to find out God's thoughts regarding my life. Ie. When it came to the Covid outbreak the Spirit spoke to me directly and through the bible. Gods words in the bible didnt provide direction for me personally whether to be vaccinated or not. His will for ME came directly from Them.

I think that there are so many voices and false prophets, that it is very difficult to discern what is true or false.

Again, this is YOUR experience or belief. But for others of us its easy to differentiate between our Masters voice and that of others. After decades of communicating with eachother we have become very acquainted with eachother. So no fear of being guided by an unfamiliar voice. This is the role and responsibility of the Spirit Jesus sent to be with us and IN us. He leads and guides us into all truth.

For me, the only secure way of finding out is through searching the Scriptures to see what Holy Spirit has said in them. Otherwise receiving new revelations, dreams, visions, etc., without verifying them through the written Scriptures is like skating on thin ice. I prefer not to take that chance.

Yes, stick to your lane. Some go to a well to access water. Some go to a water tap. Others drink from a river. Others a lake. I find comfort in knowing that all gifts of truth come down from the same Divine Person in heaven yet I can access them by various means. Hey, but that's me.

 

[Beebster]

Always remember we live not by feelings and emotions but by the Spirit , every word of GOD is truth .

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, THE WORD is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:22-23)

 

[One 2 question]

I appreciate your opinion on the matter.

Yes, this seems to be the general practice would you say. Someone will quote the bible, claiming that it is the word of God to mankind. Therefore man should not add or take away anything from it yet after spending a few minutes quoting it proceed to spend the next 30 minutes or more adding to it with their own opinion. These ascribed bible teachers (college trained) are given so much leniency to add their own interpretation, inclination and prejudice to the bible text that it has been considered as if they have come from the mouth of God Himself.

So much adding to the already CLOSED biblical canon. Has it really been closed? Should humans have attempted to close it anyway? Who told us to close it? He definitely didn't tell me. That's why I keep seeking and finding God and God's word way beyond what is contained in the bibles.