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Why I must Die !

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Code_RED, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. Code_RED

    Code_RED New Member

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    Dear Muslims,I am an ex-muslim who has many pondering questions. Today I bring you the most important one for the sake of my freedom and right to live !As per muslim belief, Allah made all humans and gave them the highest status over all living creatures. The reason that humans have higher status was because Allah gave us the power to think and therefore free will to choose and be judged for our choices on the judgement day.Then why must I die for my choice as per Islamic law which is derived from Quran, Sunah and Hadith. Here is one example:Narrated Abu Burda:".... The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" (Sahih Bukhari 9.58, also Sahih Bukhari 9.271) If I am to be judged by Humans (including prophet being one as well) then what is the use of Judgement day? What is the use of free will on earth? What is the use of a brain that thinks? Truth is if we were to follow and be followed by force then we are no different than an animal being breeded and tamed.Perhaps, you want to set an example? For what? Allah gave every human a brain to use to choose for themselves. Why must I pay for my choice by my death? You made me flee from my loved ones, you are taught to hate me, you want me to live in exile and if ever hunted you want to set a brutal example and that too in the name of peace and tolerance? On the other hand anyone can embrace islam but a muslim can not embrace any other religion or reject Islam? It is not my fault that I was born in this cult ! If Allah wanted me dead for me making a choice not to follow him, He don't need you to do it for him. This is murder, think about it how can Allah allow you to murder other human beings for their beliefs on His behalf !Allah is the protector and a protector dose not need protection from his creation. What justification dose Islam has?
    your ex-brother,Code_RED​
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Seems you are not alone Codered I read this story yesterdayI have been studying the Quran since I was around 12. Later I also started reading other kinds of Islamic books like the Life of Prophet Mohammad, Hadiths, etc. I have been Wahabi or Ahlae Hadiths like most of the Saudi Muslims are. (Osama Bin Laden is also one of them.) They are very extreme and I have been one also.I had been taught that Islam is the only way to Heaven. I was told, "If you do this, you'll get so and so blessings in Heaven," and "if you do that, you'll get so and so blessings in Heaven." I became an extremist for the religion Islam.Well, I believed what I was doing was right, and if it is right, then there is no risk in digging. I had read about the prophets in the Quran and Hadiths, but Jesus Christ was the only personality that really touched me more than any others. I found out that Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I very much wondered why they believe that. I started searching for Jesus Christ more and more. I had a Christian friend who used to study with me. I asked him one day if I could have his Bible. He was surprised and said "Sorry, you cannot have it." I assured him no one would ever know, "It will remain between me and you." But my father came to know that I read the Bible and that it was in our home. He was very angry and he knew I have only one Christian friend. So he took me with my uncle to this friend's home and warned them saying, "If you do this again and try to preach Christianity to a Muslim child, you'll have to suffer a lot and you know it. We will complain about it to Islamic Police (Mutawa) and you could be exiled from this country forever." I was a bit worried. I shouldn't have done this to my friend's family.My father warned me, and so did my uncle, to pray five times a day as I used to pray, and one time in the mosque. I kept going, and many times when there was no one in the mosque I used to cry and ask God to show me, "who is this Jesus and who are you?" Often while the Imam (leader) of the prayer was praying in Arabic (as it's compulsory to pray in Arabic only), I did not give much attention to what he was saying. One day I was praying in the Mosque, during Zuhar's prayer (noon prayer). I wasn't thinking of Jesus Christ that time. I saw an image of a handsome person on the floor where we bow our heads in prayer. I was shocked. I never saw such a thing before. It was kind of an image on water. I heard in myself that this is Jesus Christ. This is the Lord!I was worried what and how could that be, as I have learned in the Quran that God is only one, yet Christians take Jesus as the Son of God and also call Him God. This is the greatest sin which God can never forgive. I could not leave without completing my prayer just for this reason. So I completed it and began thinking about it later. My hunger to know about Jesus Christ grew more and more.I did not have a Bible with me anymore. One day I was passing with a friend through shops and I came to an internet shop. I was on the Net on yahoo.com and there came a thought in my mind: type "Who Is Jesus?" I did, and got lots of web sites. I was amazed that I could search about Jesus Christ there.A web site provided very nice information about who Jesus is, and prophecies about Him in the Old Testament, and how amazingly they are fulfilled in the New Testament.I was very much amazed. I never knew how and why to accept Jesus Christ. I was very happy to visit this site. I kept coming to this web site often. Some of the other Christian web sites were blocked as you may know very well. One day I thought of giving Jesus a try and so I said the salvation prayer on their web site. After that I also started thinking, "Did I do the greatest sin? I will never ever get to heaven," and so on.I also had been seeing that same image of Jesus Christ often when I used to go in the Mosque to pray. One day I was walking toward a market using a short cut. It's a bit lonely area. Not many people cross through there. I was walking and had been thinking and asking God if what I was doing was right and should I be Christian or Muslim? I heard a voice behind me saying "My son, you are on the right path." I was again amazed. I had never had experienced these kinds of things.But in all I had been going through, I became happier when I came to know the Holy Bible, which says many things. For example it says,"Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you saying, 'This is the way; walk in it.'"1And it says,"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."2God has been faithful to me!I had learned in the Quran that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were living in Paradise until they committed sin. (This is the same in the Bible.) But in the Quran I was told they were forgiven of their sins. I asked my Muslim friends, "If they were forgiven of their sin, then why did God being so merciful and gracious make them leave the garden? Does it mean He did not forgive them?"If, according to the Quran, the Torah (Pentateuch), Zabur (Psalms) and Injeel (Gospels) are the Word of God, then how can they change? If they have changed, as many Islamic scholars say, then who changed them and why? They claim that the Bible has changed and they feel so happy in that, but to know the truth we need to be humble and seek to find out if everything we believe is really true. Where would I be if I did not search my Bible and ask God's guidance for my life? The God of the Bible replies like no other! That is reality!In the Quran it says that some revelations are abolished or forgotten.3What does that mean? In fact it's exactly the opposite in the Bible.In the Torah, Numbers 23:19,"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind."And in Zabur (Psalms) 31:5,"Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth."And in Injeel (the Gospel of John) 17:17,"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."Never did I find a single verse in the Bible saying that God lies or that He changes His verses and leads people astray.In the Quran we are told to believe in all prophets and all the revealed Books of God which includes the Torah, Zabur, Injeel and even Daniel. If we do not believe in them, that they are the words of God, we are not Muslims. I have been praying this prayer before sleeping when I was Muslim. It can be read in Surah Al-Baqara 285. If we read the Quran we have to read the Bible also which can never change.Many measures and efforts have been taken to destroy the Bible from this earth but they have never been successful. That proves that God who revealed knows very well how to keep it protected. I challenge all who say that the Bible has changed to prove it to me with evidence. Hundreds of scientist have studied it and have confirmed its clarity and what has been written.The prophecies made in the Bible are being fulfilled in our very day. These are some of the most amazing things and confirm who is the author of this book. The very creator of this world knows what is going to happen tomorrow and the coming days. He does not predict it like a psychic but knows it!It's also amazing to understand the differences between Jesus and Mohammad. In the Bible it says:"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God!"4Why is Jesus Christ called the Glad Tidings, the Word of God, held nearest to Allah, but nothing is mentioned about Mohammad as such?Surah MaryamHe said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.Why a faultless son?Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Hadith 4.506, narrated by Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "When any human being is born, Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead."Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Hadith 4.641Narrated by Said bin Al Musaiyab:Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of Adam, but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child."Also, why was Jesus Christ faultless and without sin, whereas Mohammad was touched by Satan and lead a sinful life? Many times in the Quran, Mohammad is reminded of repenting his sins. Every Muslim who reads the Quran with understanding knows it very well.The Bible also says Jesus Christ did miracles and did many other things which no one except God can do. Why did God allow Him to do these things which only He did...things like giving life to death, and healing the sick? Why?Why did Mohammad never do that? Despite many people of his time asking for miracles he refused. But one miracle is recorded in the Quran that he parted the moon in two. What benefit did it bring to humanity?Before Jesus Christ was born, angels were sent to announce the noble birth of a faultless son through a virgin. But Mohammad being the greatest of Prophets in Islam does not have that much privilege? Why is nothing similar said for Mohammad?If God really was able to make a virgin give birth, then why would it be difficult for Him to call Him His Son?The Quran tells that there will be a revelation for mankind and mercy5 -- revelation and mercy to all mankind even after Mohammad. Why? Why is it ordained? What kind of mercy to the world? The Quran does not answer that. Muslims will have to read the Injeel (Gospel) to find out about God's mercy for mankind.In the Injeel (Gospel), Mark 10:46-47, one blind man cries out to the Lord Jesus Christ saying:A blind man, Bartimaeus, was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"Also in the New Testament:"Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life."6"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."7The Lord Jesus Christ is not the mercy that was meant for people of His time or of His area only. God made Him Mercy for ALL MANKIND EVEN AFTER MOHAMMAD.We know from the Bible that we are sinners and away from the Lord. Jesus Christ is the only provision for us to reconcile us with the Lord, because He was sinless and became sin for our sake. Our sins were transferred to Him.Jesus Christ bore our sins and became sin for us. In Injeel (Gospel), it says:"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."8To many other people, He said "your sins are forgiven" indicating He wants them to be saved from sins! He bore their sins!Also from the New Testament:"God made Him (Jesus) who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God."9Many people have found God's mercy in the Lord Christ and have been changed. One of them is me. Many look for the miracles, authority, Truth and only truth in the wrong places, and I also have been doing so, until I met Him, the only One who not only knows the way to God but Himself is The Way. In Jesus' very words:Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him."10Mohammad and Muslims have been praying every day many times in their much-devoted prayers for guidance, and amazingly the last and greatest of Islam's Prophet kept praying for it till his death.11Was Mohammad on the straight path? Is Islam the straight path? I encourage all Muslims to ask him or herself is it really true what they are doing to get to heaven? Many times in the Quran we come to know that Heaven is the place for whomsoever God wills. Here is one:Surah An-Nur 14Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you in this world and the hereafter a grievous penalty (In Hell) would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair.Surah At-Taub 111Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their good for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise)What do we understand of it?Surah Al-Maida 35OYe who believe! do your duty to Allah seek the means of approach unto HimI pray God will give hunger in each of us more each day and we will turn to Him for our Spiritual food and our salvation! I have used many Quranic verses to show my Muslim brothers and sisters to know what it actually says for us to do!I do not believe heaven is a place with a price tag on it, which can be bought by our deeds, but only through God's Mercy and grace. I pray God will give hunger in each of us more each day and we will turn to Him for our Spiritual food and our salvation! It is made so simple like never before. Come to Him with a humble heart. Seek His Face and find yourself in His arms!We become a new creation in Christ. It was written long ago, but today it is still true! How our minds and our thoughts change because the One who created us knows how to fill that missing gap and to reinstall our spiritual life in the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only Way to Him! So Brothers and sisters, open your hearts and minds to accept His amazing Love. Allow the Lord Jesus Christ into your life and see what happens next. The greatest adventure in the Universe begins. Whenever I have been in trouble He has been there and comforted me like no one ever could. He has shown me that He's alive forever and He loves us very much. I praise and thank God for sending His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to die for me and for all of us, and making the marvelous and glorious bridge to reach Him! To understand how to begin a relationship with Him, please see: Knowing God Personally.(1) Isaiah 30:21 (2) Jeremiah 29:11-13 (3) Surah Al-Baqara 2:106 (4) (Injeel) John 1:1 (5) Surah Maryam 21 (6) Jude 21 (7) 1 Peter 1:3 (8) Injeel (the Gospel), Matthew 1:21 (9) 2 Corinthians 5:21 (10) John 14:6 (11) Surah Al Fateha 3
     
  3. RobinD69

    RobinD69 New Member

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    AMEN Kriss,and Code Red you are in my preyers.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    RedcodeI would like to ask you a question if you dont mind Do you believe Allah and the God of the Bible are one in the same?If so then why do Muslims follow Mohammad who was nothing but a man even if they believe him to be a prophet like in the Bible we do not worship Ezekiel,Enoch or other bible prophets.And if Allah is the same as our god why would he not teach Muslims to follow his word alone. Instead of a man who is never mentioned in scripture?
     
  5. Code_RED

    Code_RED New Member

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    Kriss, I thank you for sharing this story. It moved me deeply. Though the whole story and every word in it is quite thought provoking; I like this part the best:(kriss;19821)
    It's also amazing to understand the differences between Jesus and Mohammad. In the Bible it says:"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God!"4Why is Jesus Christ called the Glad Tidings, the Word of God, held nearest to Allah, but nothing is mentioned about Mohammad as such?
    It is true that Quran referes Jesus as 'kalmat-ul-Allah''. Kalma is an arabic word which is derived from Kalam. Kalam, literally means conversation or the word. -UL- means of and Allah is God. So if you put Kalmat-Ul-Allah together it means The Word of God. You see, I am what I say I am and my word's can not be ignored for I am nothing without my words. ''My words are my reflection''... Was Mohammed the reflection of God Or Was Jesus the reflection of God Himself? I leave it to my muslim brothers and sisters to think, decide and choose the right path to follow !Peace,Code_RED
     
  6. Code_RED

    Code_RED New Member

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    (kriss;19945)
    RedcodeI would like to ask you a question if you dont mind Do you believe Allah and the God of the Bible are one in the same?If so then why do Muslims follow Mohammad who was nothing but a man even if they believe him to be a prophet like in the Bible we do not worship Ezekiel,Enoch or other bible prophets.And if Allah is the same as our god why would he not teach Muslims to follow his word alone. Instead of a man who is never mentioned in scripture?
    Kriss, as much as a muslim would try to convince you that both God's are same, NO they are not same from any comparison. Except the fact that to get accepted by followers of the biggest religion, Mohammed accepted that Jesus exsisted and was a prophet (though bible says He was the SON which has been strictly refuted in quran) with few other stories about him and other biblical events narrated wrongly with no historical or biblical back-up. One can clearly see that the source was biblical scriptures therefore the stories may sound familiar when you begin to read quran but has altogether different endings with a different meaning - comprehension. That is also why in quran it says that the holy book before quran has been corrupted. This is the only back-up you will find in quran to consolidate quran.It is the meaning or the conclusion that matters the most and the one who has read both quran and bible can safely conclude that these two books are completly different in their teachings. Hence, preaching totally two different Gods.Peace,Code_RED
     
  7. Code_RED

    Code_RED New Member

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    (RobinD69;19918)
    AMEN Kriss,and Code Red you are in my preyers.
    Thank you Robin [​IMG]Peace,Code_RED
     
  8. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Code_RED)
    Dear Muslims,I am an ex-muslim who has many pondering questions. Today I bring you the most important one for the sake of my freedom and right to live !As per muslim belief, Allah made all humans and gave them the highest status over all living creatures. The reason that humans have higher status was because Allah gave us the power to think and therefore free will to choose and be judged for our choices on the judgement day.Then why must I die for my choice as per Islamic law which is derived from Quran, Sunah and Hadith. Here is one example:Narrated Abu Burda:".... The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" (Sahih Bukhari 9.58, also Sahih Bukhari 9.271) If I am to be judged by Humans (including prophet being one as well) then what is the use of Judgement day? What is the use of free will on earth? What is the use of a brain that thinks? Truth is if we were to follow and be followed by force then we are no different than an animal being breeded and tamed.Perhaps, you want to set an example? For what? Allah gave every human a brain to use to choose for themselves. Why must I pay for my choice by my death? You made me flee from my loved ones, you are taught to hate me, you want me to live in exile and if ever hunted you want to set a brutal example and that too in the name of peace and tolerance? On the other hand anyone can embrace islam but a muslim can not embrace any other religion or reject Islam? It is not my fault that I was born in this cult ! If Allah wanted me dead for me making a choice not to follow him, He don't need you to do it for him. This is murder, think about it how can Allah allow you to murder other human beings for their beliefs on His behalf !Allah is the protector and a protector dose not need protection from his creation. What justification dose Islam has?
    your ex-brother,Code_RED​
    Firstable, in the name of Allah (God) The Most High, i asking you to return to Allah (God) the Oneness God that there's nothing God beside Him and Muhammad s.a.w. His Prophet and Messenger, and stick on it with your soul and body.Now regarding on what you has questioned, are you the follower of Elohiym(G-d) ?If you are indeed His follower, then why don't you questioing Him also like He already state in the BIBLE. Please see these verses below :Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."Now, how can you explain that ex-muslim ?I think in the end, you will taking us(muslim-christian-Jews) to be Atheist, am i right ?Wallahu a'lam.
     
  9. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Ricky W;20255)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimFirstable, in the name of Allah (God) The Most High, i asking you to return to Allah (God) the Oneness God that there's nothing God beside Him and Muhammad s.a.w. His Prophet and Messenger, and stick on it with your soul and body.Now regarding on what you has questioned, are you the follower of Elohiym(G-d) ?If you are indeed His follower, then why don't you questioing Him also like He already state in the BIBLE. Please see these verses below :Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."Now, how can you explain that ex-muslim ?I think in the end, you will taking us(muslim-christian-Jews) to be Atheist, am i right ?Wallahu a'lam.
    Dear RickyIt is quite sad that you are pulling all the Old Testament scriptures. We are NOT in the Old Testament...We are IN the New Testament. And we are commanded not to stone anyone to death because of that particular sin. Everybody can repent and serve the Living God if they chose to, if they want eternal life. Stop trying to twist scriptures.Much love, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  10. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(thesuperjag)
    Dear RickyIt is quite sad that you are pulling all the Old Testament scriptures. We are NOT in the Old Testament...We are IN the New Testament. And we are commanded not to stone anyone to death because of that particular sin. Everybody can repent and serve the Living God if they chose to, if they want eternal life. Stop trying to twist scriptures.Much love, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    Dear Jordan,Again i say this unto you, i'm not attend to twist scriptures. But unfortanately that is what it says in the your HOLY BIBLE.If you want to get understand why i'm doing this to red_code(not you) read what the red_code has been said, then you compare with what i brought. I want to know what he/she will said about that ?Now regarding on writings above, i'll try to response with this below,What's wrong with pulling OT, does that law wasn't from Elohiym ? And if it is from Elohiym, then why don't we ask Him who already gave that law at that time ? His followers has theire own mind on what they want to worship. So why don't we ask to Elohiym like the way red_code asking ?Jesus(pbuh) never ever event once deny to implement OT or to make his followers not to follow OT. It's clearly state on NT that he(Jesus) command his follower to do OT to get into heaven. And i think you already know that those death penalty was because for breaking the first law of TEN COMMANDMENT. Now, are you trying to avoid those law ?Oh btw jordan, i found something interesting in NT, and i don't know how to tell about this verses below :Let us look at Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament) "20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."Wallahu a'lam.
     
  11. RobinD69

    RobinD69 New Member

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    I am sorry but you are twisting the word by not clearly using the entire Bible.You are only using select verses to support your view.The OT referance was to stop what we are fighting with right now.If the original Hebrews had led their offspring in the ways of the Lord instead of being lazy,we would have no other religions.As for the NT referance,all who reject the true God will die,but not by mans hands but by Gods.
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Ricky W;20294)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(thesuperjag;20261)
    Dear RickyIt is quite sad that you are pulling all the Old Testament scriptures. We are NOT in the Old Testament...We are IN the New Testament. And we are commanded not to stone anyone to death because of that particular sin. Everybody can repent and serve the Living God if they chose to, if they want eternal life. Stop trying to twist scriptures.Much love, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    Dear Jordan,Again i say this unto you, i'm not attend to twist scriptures. But unfortanately that is what it says in the your HOLY BIBLE.If you want to get understand why i'm doing this to red_code(not you) read what the red_code has been said, then you compare with what i brought. I want to know what he/she will said about that ?Now regarding on writings above, i'll try to response with this below,What's wrong with pulling OT, does that law wasn't from Elohiym ? And if it is from Elohiym, then why don't we ask Him who already gave that law at that time ? His followers has theire own mind on what they want to worship. So why don't we ask to Elohiym like the way red_code asking ?Jesus(pbuh) never ever event once deny to implement OT or to make his followers not to follow OT. It's clearly state on NT that he(Jesus) command his follower to do OT to get into heaven. And i think you already know that those death penalty was because for breaking the first law of TEN COMMANDMENT. Now, are you trying to avoid those law ?Oh btw jordan, i found something interesting in NT, and i don't know how to tell about this verses below :Let us look at Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament) "20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."Wallahu a'lam.Dear RickyYou can't seem to understand the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.The Old Testament laws still exist today...the only thing you are missing is the fact is that we are not allowed to stone anyone to death anymore. Why? Cause Jesus didn't stone the woman at all.I hate politically correct bibles.(RobinD69;20302)
    I am sorry but you are twisting the word by not clearly using the entire Bible.You are only using select verses to support your view.The OT referance was to stop what we are fighting with right now.If the original Hebrews had led their offspring in the ways of the Lord instead of being lazy,we would have no other religions.As for the NT referance,all who reject the true God will die,but not by mans hands but by Gods.
    Amen Robin! I agree. No man can not kill, for that particular sin...It will be done by God's hands...Love much JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  13. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(RobinD69)
    I am sorry but you are twisting the word by not clearly using the entire Bible.You are only using select verses to support your view.
    I'm using it, because there is state in the bible, not in my word.Now i'm asking you.("Ricky W")
    What's wrong with pulling OT, does that law wasn't from Elohiym ? And if it is from Elohiym, then why don't we ask Him who already gave that law at that time ? His followers has theire own mind on what they want to worship. So why don't we ask to Elohiym like the way red_code asking ? (i'm using this question and mind just like the way the code_red did)

    The OT referance was to stop what we are fighting with right now.If the original Hebrews had led their offspring in the ways of the Lord instead of being lazy,we would have no other religions.
    Sorry i'm still don't get that with this.
    As for the NT referance,all who reject the true God will die,but not by mans hands but by Gods.
    I think you are lie, now watch what Jordan say about this :
    The Old Testament laws still exist today...the only thing you are missing is the fact is that we are not allowed to stone anyone to death anymore. Why? Cause Jesus didn't stone the woman at all.
    Event your God doesn't do his a punisment to a sinner ?You guys make me confuse alright.Wallahu a'lam.
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Sorry to break that up...It's the truth. Jesus didn't stone the woman to death for committing an adultery. He did not condemn the woman but said "Go and sin no more."God is giving us a chance to be with Him. We are not allow to kill anyone because of their particular sin. God expects them to repent for their sin...Not to kill them. He wants to save them.Love much Jag,Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  15. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(thesuperjag)
    Dear Ricky...The Old Testament laws still exist today...the only thing you are missing is the fact is that we are not allowed to stone anyone to death anymore. Why? Cause Jesus didn't stone the woman at all.
    Who says that stoning or death penalty was forbidden ? You or Jesus ?Jesus (pbuh) never ever saying that he would event once to erase Elohiym Law, now how dare you said something that Jesus already state clearly in YOUR BIBLE regarding on OT LAW.Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.If Jesus broke the rule of Elohiym Law, which is stoning/death penalty was one of Elohiym law for Ten Commandment broker. Then Jesus has mistake by giving those word.Now see this verse alsoMatthew 5:5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Event Jesus foretold in your bible who doeth Torah Law and teach it, then thus person will great in the kingdom of Heavent, on countrary it will go to hell or least in the kingdom of heaven.Now regarding on John which is not exist in the earlier writings, i've been studied on it, and guest what, JESUS NOT EVENT BROKE 1 of TORAH LAW regarding on 'fake fornication/adultery'. He is a clever man, and he is know hows heart of Jews(hatred of prophet) are which is want to trap him so he can get blame. If you learned what was Jesus done, he really using Torah to smakedown the Jews.
    Amen Robin! I agree. No man can not kill, for that particular sin...It will be done by God's hands...Love much JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    But why god order Jews (human hands)to do those Law, and GOD allow human to punish human for God Law Broker ? Unless you are not believe with Elohiym who already revealed a Torah.Wallahu a'lam.
     
  16. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Ricky W;20314)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(thesuperjag)
    Dear Ricky...The Old Testament laws still exist today...the only thing you are missing is the fact is that we are not allowed to stone anyone to death anymore. Why? Cause Jesus didn't stone the woman at all.
    Who says that stoning or death penalty was forbidden ? You or Jesus ?Jesus (pbuh) never ever saying that he would event once to erase Elohiym Law, now how dare you said something that Jesus already state clearly in YOUR BIBLE regarding on OT LAW.Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.If Jesus broke the rule of Elohiym Law, which is stoning/death penalty was one of Elohiym law for Ten Commandment broker. Then Jesus has mistake by giving those word.Now see this verse alsoMatthew 5:5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Event Jesus foretold in your bible who doeth Torah Law and teach it, then thus person will great in the kingdom of Heavent, on countrary it will go to hell or least in the kingdom of heaven.Now regarding on John which is not exist in the earlier writings, i've been studied on it, and guest what, JESUS NOT EVENT BROKE 1 of TORAH LAW regarding on 'fake fornication/adultery'. He is a clever man, and he is know hows heart of Jews(hatred of prophet) are which is want to trap him so he can get blame. If you learned what was Jesus done, he really using Torah to smakedown the Jews.(thesuperjag)
    Amen Robin! I agree. No man can not kill, for that particular sin...It will be done by God's hands...Love much JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    But why god order Jews (human hands)to do those Law, and GOD allow human to punish human for God Law Broker ? Unless you are not believe with Elohiym who already revealed a Torah.Wallahu a'lam.1. Since Jesus didn't stone her to death, it's clearly that we are not allowed to do it anymore.2. Luke 16:17...Jesus did not break the OT law correct...but He fulfilled it, and but nowhere in that verse tells us to stone anyone to death.3. Matthew 5:18-19...Jesus is telling us to teach men not to sin. If they did, they are the "least in the kingdom of heaven"...but Jesus again, did not say to stone anyone to death. I'm glad that He said "Go and sin no more"Much love, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Ricky what the problem is here is you have to understand the difference between Laws and Ordinances, Precepts, and rituals Jesus fulfilled all Ordinances precepts rituals and rites so they are No longer in effect only the Law is in effect. As you have stated above all other Ordnance's like stoning, sacrifice, temple rules ect are no longer acceptable or necessary because Christ became our sacrifice and issued in the law of repentance for all therefore we can no longer judge only God judges sin and weighs it against a persons works and repentance. Even yours should you askWe can not follow these fulfilled Ordnance's, precepts, rituals,or rites. It would mean denying Christ if we did so.
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Thank you for the clerifying that for me...I wasn't exactly quite sure that if stoning was part of ordinances or not...Because of Yahshua saying "Go and sin no more" Thank you so much for the help.Love much, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  19. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmanirrohiim(thesuperjag)
    1. Since Jesus didn't stone her to death, it's clearly that we are not allowed to do it anymore.
    Didn't stone her doesn't mean Jesus want to remove stoning Law, which is GOD LAW. And God wouldn't taking back what He already been made.Of course Jesus wouldn't stone her. As I said to you, he is clever prophet, not stupid and also know what was in the heart of the Jews(hatred of the prophets), besides that as i said before, he is using bible regarding on that.Now i'm taking you to analyze why Jesus didn't stone her according to Bible Law.1st. Jesus know that those Jews were trying to tempting him so he can be blamed he done it.Then what kind of result that Jews wanted so they can blamed Jesus for it ?If Jesus did a stoning. Why, is itn't Jesus follow Moses Law by doing so ? a. Those conclusion we can get in John It self, where after Jesus didn't stone her, he didn't get blamed by those Jews.b. Jews want to tempting him so Jesus done stoning on her, thats mean what they are trying to do is making a lie on the case so Jesus can stoning her, and after that he can be blamed.2nd. By the time Jews and Persians bring an adulterer, they only bring the women. It should they bring two person not one person. This is weak evidence. However Jesus as a person who know the COMMANDMENT of GOD ofcourse must follow what GOD has told in HIS COMMANDMENTDeuteronomy 17:17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.3rd. Let's take a look what Jesus did/said at that timeJohn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.Actually what Jesus has done by saying thus word was taken from Deuteronomy 17:7. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to deathAnd guest what, there wasn't among Jews nor Persians who has done that. John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.And why Jesus using word sin againts Jews on that verse (John 8:7) ? Because the one who did stoning to a person who was not wrong then they already commit sin, and Jesus know well what was they try tempting and Jesus remind them on what they trying to do.And from John 8:9 we also can conclude that, there wasn't a truly witnesses seeing on the suspect. Which that is something that be needed for doing a punishment(stoning/death penalty), like it is say at Deuteronomy 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death.4th. John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.So, because Jesus doesn't seeing on what happen on thus woman, and the evidence is also weak and proof to be not proven that women done adultery, so why should Jesus must stone her ? So that's a consequences logic of what Jesus did. And why Jesus said to her sin no more ? It's job of prophet to warn his followers to remind his followers not to commit sin. So it's an ordinary wisdom from prophet to his follower.
    2. Luke 16:17...Jesus did not break the OT law correct...but He fulfilled it, and but nowhere in that verse tells us to stone anyone to death.
    Now i'm asking you, STONING LAW is it ELOHIYM LAW or EVIL LAW ?If stoning Law become perish because of what Jesus did, then pay attention to what he already said below.5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    3. Matthew 5:18-19...Jesus is telling us to teach men not to sin. If they did, they are the "least in the kingdom of heaven"...but Jesus again, did not say to stone anyone to death. I'm glad that He said "Go and sin no more"Much love, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    You twisted what was foretold in the Bible, it is not talking about sin or not sin, but it is about COMMANDMENT, GOD LAW. How come you interpreted using your own desired became sin and not sin ?One more thing, assumed from what you have believe is like the way you said before, you said that only GOD hand who give death punishment to a sinner, but it is strange, that Jesus doesn't stone her, meanwhile he knows/ware that him self is GOD ?Wallahu a'lam.
     
  20. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Ricky W;20324)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmanirrohiim(thesuperjag)
    1. Since Jesus didn't stone her to death, it's clearly that we are not allowed to do it anymore.
    Didn't stone her doesn't mean Jesus want to remove stoning Law, which is GOD LAW. And God wouldn't taking back what He already been made.Of course Jesus wouldn't stone her. As I said to you, he is clever prophet, not stupid and also know what was in the heart of the Jews(hatred of the prophets), besides that as i said before, he is using bible regarding on that.Now i'm taking you to analyze why Jesus didn't stone her according to Bible Law.1st. Jesus know that those Jews were trying to tempting him so he can be blamed he done it.Then what kind of result that Jews wanted so they can blamed Jesus for it ?If Jesus did a stoning. Why, is itn't Jesus follow Moses Law by doing so ? a. Those conclusion we can get in John It self, where after Jesus didn't stone her, he didn't get blamed by those Jews.b. Jews want to tempting him so Jesus done stoning on her, thats mean what they are trying to do is making a lie on the case so Jesus can stoning her, and after that he can be blamed.2nd. By the time Jews and Persians bring an adulterer, they only bring the women. It should they bring two person not one person. This is weak evidence. However Jesus as a person who know the COMMANDMENT of GOD ofcourse must follow what GOD has told in HIS COMMANDMENTDeuteronomy 17:17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.3rd. Let's take a look what Jesus did/said at that timeJohn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.Actually what Jesus has done by saying thus word was taken from Deuteronomy 17:7. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to deathAnd guest what, there wasn't among Jews nor Persians who has done that. John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.And why Jesus using word sin againts Jews on that verse (John 8:7) ? Because the one who did stoning to a person who was not wrong then they already commit sin, and Jesus know well what was they try tempting and Jesus remind them on what they trying to do.And from John 8:9 we also can conclude that, there wasn't a truly witnesses seeing on the suspect. Which that is something that be needed for doing a punishment(stoning/death penalty), like it is say at Deuteronomy 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death.4th. John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.So, because Jesus doesn't seeing on what happen on thus woman, and the evidence is also weak and proof to be not proven that women done adultery, so why should Jesus must stone her ? So that's a consequences logic of what Jesus did. And why Jesus said to her sin no more ? It's job of prophet to warn his followers to remind his followers not to commit sin. So it's an ordinary wisdom from prophet to his follower.(thesuperjag)
    2. Luke 16:17...Jesus did not break the OT law correct...but He fulfilled it, and but nowhere in that verse tells us to stone anyone to death.
    Now i'm asking you, STONING LAW is it ELOHIYM LAW or EVIL LAW ?If stoning Law become perish because of what Jesus did, then pay attention to what he already said below.5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (thesuperjag)
    3. Matthew 5:18-19...Jesus is telling us to teach men not to sin. If they did, they are the "least in the kingdom of heaven"...but Jesus again, did not say to stone anyone to death. I'm glad that He said "Go and sin no more"Much love, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    You twisted what was foretold in the Bible, it is not talking about sin or not sin, but it is about COMMANDMENT, GOD LAW. How come you interpreted using your own desired became sin and not sin ?One more thing, assumed from what you have believe is like the way you said before, you said that only GOD hand who give death punishment to a sinner, but it is strange, that Jesus doesn't stone her, meanwhile he knows/ware that him self is GOD ?Wallahu a'lam.About John 8:7 with Deuteronomy 17:7...Are you without sin? Are you free of sin to make the decision of stoning someone to death for that particular sin? If I say, I never sinned at all in my life, I am a liar and an antichrist. If I say, I can make that decision of stoning someone to death for that particular sin, The truth is not in me and am an antichrist.Much love, Jag
     
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