Why is the "Imputed righteousness" scheme so seductive?

[justbyfaith]

There is this:

Jas 4:11, Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jas 4:12, There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

This passage certainly doesn't prohibit us from judging unbelievers; neither does it prohibit us from judging as wolves-in-sheep's-clothing those who come to us as prophets but who are bearers of bad fruit.

For the scripture doesn't contradict itself.

 

[justbyfaith]

No. I am saying you present one side, in defense of judging unbelievers, without the entire counsel from God, and that in doing so, you are using the words from God to defend yourself in your judgement while ignoring the verses that would save you from this terrifying error and bring you back to wisdom.

In saying this you are calling me a fool.

Beware; for Jesus taught that in this you are in danger of hell fire.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What verses tell me not to judge? The only passage that I can think of that tells me this is Matthew 7:1-6.

And in that passage, it tells me to take the log out of my own eye first, and then I will see clearly to take the speck out of my brother's eye. So there is a time and a place for removing my brother's speck.

Also, in context of that, we are told to be fruit inspectors (You will know a tree by its fruit). How is it possible to do that if we do not judge?

The first one would take a little more time than I currently have this morning.

Judging by the fruit of the Spirit if someone is a believing brother or an unbeliever still does not make you qualified to judge any man or condemn any man. All judgement is for God. The verses are numerous that state this. Only a man lacking humility would fail to see them and take them to heart in order to argue that he is supposed to judge men.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And you are not judging me in saying this.

I could rail on you now as Jesus did to the scribes and Pharisees (in Matthew 23); but I refrain because it is very likely against the rules of the boards (not to mention I might be accused of being un-Christ-like. Ironic, isn't it?).

No, I am not judging you. Have I said, oh you're definitely in or, oh, you are definitely out? No, I haven't.

But concerning the pride that would argue it can make the judgements that belong to God alone? Yes, I can see and judge that as arrogance. So can others who see you doing it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In saying this you are calling me a fool.

Beware; for Jesus taught that in this you are in danger of hell fire.

Oh, so now no one is allowed to try to help someone out of a terrifying error because you think they make you look foolish? Wear whatever shoe fits you. I have to go work on some furniture.

 

[justbyfaith]

But concerning the pride that would argue it can make the judgements that belong to God alone? Yes, I can see and judge that as arrogance. So can others who see you doing it.

Do these judgments belong to God alone?

It is written,

1Co 6:1, Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2, Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3, Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The Lord has given us His Holy Spirit; so we are not alone in the judgments that the Lord would have us proclaim; but we are merely proclaiming His judgments that He has declared in His word.

There are many instances in the Old Testament where prophets declare the judgments of God against the nation of Israel and other nations.

I myself rarely bring forth judgment; but when I do judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone in it but I am simply proclaiming the judgment that the Lord has already spoken.

 

[FollowHim]

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Were the Publican or the thief on the cross godly? These men were not religiously inclined at all. Yet their consciences were not so seared that they were beyond conviction of the Holy Spirit.

There is truly a problem in some hearts who confess faith yet deny love from their hearts. In Christ this cannot be so.

Others say their faith means God only sees Christ and not them. This is a powerful image, yet ignores the truth of Christ's love cleansing us. If Christ's cleansing is not real where are we?

And these uncleaned, unresolved folk are happy to call others hypocritical liars. It is ironic though that those who do evil and refuse to repent might claim authority to say the worst about others. Jesus calls us to follow, and follow we must because He is our King who we listen to and love.

By definition, if one does not listen and follow one does not know Him.

 

[marks]

He meant to say episkopai for his name, and then he never changed it. But that's just me giving you information you didn't know.

Isn't it you who think you have the authority to approve or reject others, based on a visitation you received?

Hardly.

Where I ever made such claims? I study the Bible. I learn what it says. It forms my mind. I'm here to discuss it.

You are the one doing the very thing you say he is doing. And to protect your status, you grind the face of the poor into the dirt.

Excuse me?

You didn't do one thing of yourself to receive sight, yet you are now rich and in need of nothing and can make judgement on the destitute. You terrify me.

I have no idea what you are responding to.

 

[marks]

He meant to say episkopai for his name, and then he never changed it. But that's just me giving you information you didn't know.

I happen to know he goes by episkopay on other forums, and I know how he explains the meaning of his user name, in this idea of visitation. Yes, the word is used that way in the Bible, just the same, he does, and I do not, make this claim of visitation and approval, now given the right to approve or reject others. That's his thing. Not mine.

I can only imagine in his own mind I am rejected, and anyone who listens to him must hear the same. I guess!

I wasn't going to quibble over a letter or 2 in the name, I know what he means with it.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hardly.

Where I ever made such claims? I study the Bible. I learn what it says. It forms my mind. I'm here to discuss it.



Excuse me?



I have no idea what you are responding to.

Apologies! I thought I was still talking with Justbyfaith! Apologies!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I happen to know he goes by episkopay on other forums, and I know how he explains the meaning of his user name, in this idea of visitation. Yes, the word is used that way in the Bible, just the same, he does, and I do not, make this claim of visitation and approval, now given the right to approve or reject others. That's his thing. Not mine.

I can only imagine in his own mind I am rejected, and anyone who listens to him must hear the same. I guess!

I wasn't going to quibble over a letter or 2 in the name, I know what he means with it.

Much love!

He has made no claim of being visited and approved and now able to be a judge. And now I will stop talking about him before I say something about him or his experience that is not mine to tell. Continue on with your stories.

 

[marks]

Oh, so now no one is allowed to try to help someone out of a terrifying error because you think they make you look foolish? Wear whatever shoe fits you. I have to go work on some furniture.

I think that to say someone is intentionally ignoring God to their own hurt is the meaning of "fool" in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think that to say someone is intentionally ignoring God to their own hurt is the meaning of "fool" in the Bible.

Much love!

So it is wrong to say someone is ignoring Gods word in one place to favor Gods word in another, with the intent of defending themselves? This is now a grievous sin? I'm starting to think it's sheer boredom that draws us into such silliness....

 

[marks]

So it is wrong to say someone is ignoring Gods word in one place to favor Gods word in another, with the intent of defending themselves? This is now a grievous sin? I'm starting to think it's sheer boredom that draws us into such silliness....

I don't think this is either "grievous sin" or idle silliness.

But when you say someone is ignoring God's Word, that ascribes intent that may not actually be there.

It may be that the other person is not ignoring anything, in their estimation, having a different understanding on some point.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He has made no claim of being visited and approved and now able to be a judge. And now I will stop talking about him before I say something about him or his experience that is not mine to tell. Continue on with your stories.

I've read it in his posts. He's made exactly that claim.

If he denies this to be true, all the better. Let @Episkopos settle the matter.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Apologies! I thought I was still talking with Justbyfaith! Apologies!

That happens to me too sometimes, I hate it when it does!

 

[justbyfaith]

And to protect your status, you grind the face of the poor into the dirt.

Please explain to me and everyone else how I do this.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I've read it in his posts. He's made exactly that claim.

If he denies this to be true, all the better. Let @Episkopos settle the matter.

Much love!

No, he has not claimed it. That's what you read into what he said. And by now it should be obvious to you that He has you on ignore or is just not going to speak with or answer you any more, so I think you will be waiting a long time.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Please explain to me and everyone else how I do this.

I can try...

You were previously defending yourself regarding judging unbelievers as being worthy of hell. At the same time, you judge yourself worthy of heaven. And these judgements are based on God graciously pardoning you. You were poor and your debt was forgiven. (Unless you think you caused your salvation or did something to cause it or think you have given your own self sight.) So now you sit in judgement of other poor men with a debt, saying they are headed for hell. This is not your judgement to make. It is Gods judgement to make. But you pull up verses and say that your judgement of these men is true and is Gods judgement of them, so you are putting yourself in Gods place as the judge of men. You, who cannot see the condition of a man's heart and who cannot see the end of a man as God can.

To exacerbate the terrifying mess, you have this view that you are righteous even if you don't do righteously, while another man is unrighteous even if he may do righteously in Gods judgement.

It is terrifying. I am terrified for you. You are much too certain and bold of yourself and your judgements of others.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father except by me.

I don't know how you interpret that; but I interpret it to mean that the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

I do not presume to judge the end of any singular person's life.

But I do believe that anyone who does not place their faith in Jesus' finished work on the Cross in the context of their life will find themselves in hell as the result of their day of judgment; for their sins are not forgiven.

This is not what I am saying; it is what the Bible teaches.

If my judgment is in agreement with the Lord's judgment, then I am simply agreeing with the Lord about His judgments which He has declared in His word.

How then do you presume to judge me as though I were the one doing the judging?

For I am simply agreeing with God concerning His judgment.

If I proclaim what this judgment is to others in order that they may avoid being judged by Him in the fashion that He describes, is that not love?

For they now have an opportunity to turn to Jesus Christ and be forgiven of their sin(s). Thus, if they do this, they "shall not come into condemnation." John 5:24.