Why isn't the shroud of turin in the bible

[Marymog]

Come and see!

I didn't expect to get a serious answer from you. But I thought I would try.

If I did come to see you, what would I see?

Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you GG.

The subject is what evidence did Jesus give YOU that he is the Son of God.

Do you believe it is just "written into your heart" or does/did it take more than that?

Mary

PS...who said we could turn our back on God and still be saved? Did you read it on the internet and if so would you provide me the link?

Simple as pie. At least the way I make it.

Jesus resurrection.
Proving He's God.

And how do I know it happened?

The Apostles tell me so.
If I can't trust the Apostles, I might as well not be Christian.

I can get into this much much more....
but that's basically it.

"And who do YOU say that I am?"

 

[amadeus]

I didn't expect to get a serious answer from you. But I thought I would try.

If I did come to see you, what would I see?

Mary

My answer was serious. I did not look it up but recalled reading that particular phrase in scripture. In the KJ Bible it is used 9 times, once in the OT and 8 in the NT.

What you would see would be according to the eyes God has given you, but this is NOT the two orbs below your forehead. It is the "eyes" described in Matthew 13:13ff. If you understand and see that is well, but don't expect me to help you on this. Either you understand what I have said or you do not. That is between you and God. I can only help if you really want help. Since you don't believe you need help... or at least not help from or through me, my hands are tied.

 

[Marymog]

Simple as pie. At least the way I make it.

Jesus resurrection.
Proving He's God.

And how do I know it happened?

The Apostles tell me so.
If I can't trust the Apostles, I might as well not be Christian.

I can get into this much much more....
but that's basically it.

"And who do YOU say that I am?"

I agree with you. The miracles while he was alive draws one in. It's the resurrection that seals the deal.

Now if I can only get such a answer from @amadeus instead of all his dodging and weaving....He's making my head spin. He writes lots of words but never says anything....IMO.

Mary

 

[mjrhealth]

My faith comes from the Word of God. You, like many speak of scripture and the Word of God as being one. Was the dead body of Jesus the Word of God when it was dead on the cross prior to His Resurrection?

I hear Jesus and not everyone else who says that He is when I recognize His voice. Only the sheep; not the goats.

You are still speaking of miracles with awe as if that which man witnesses with physical senses must be greater than that witnessed with the "eyes to see" and the "ears to hear" which we have from and by the Holy Ghost.

I was dead and now I am Alive! Do you doubt my testimony? The proof is already there those with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear". Are you saying that you have no such testimony, yourself?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

He has certainly rewarded me. Do you doubt that He has rewarded anyone who has believed that He is?

Amen

Joh_4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with you. The miracles while he was alive draws one in. It's the resurrection that seals the deal.

Now if I can only get such a answer from @amadeus instead of all his dodging and weaving....He's making my head spin. He writes lots of words but never says anything....IMO.

Mary

Even benny hinn does miracles!
And there have been others sent of God.... Buddha etc.
None of them ever came back from the dead.
And the Apostles died for their belief.

 

[Marymog]

My answer was serious. I did not look it up but recalled reading that particular phrase in scripture. In the KJ Bible it is used 9 times, once in the OT and 8 in the NT.

What you would see would be according to the eyes God has given you, but this is NOT the two orbs below your forehead. It is the "eyes" described in Matthew 13:13ff. If you understand and see that is well, but don't expect me to help you on this. Either you understand what I have said or you do not. That is between you and God. I can only help if you really want help. Since you don't believe you need help... or at least not help from or through me, my hands are tied.

Once again.....I had no expectation of getting a serious answer from you and you provided....

I don't understand and see because you are not a good communicator. You write lots of words but say nothing. If you want people to know WHY you believe what you believe you should be able to articulate that to a simple old (53 yoa) woman like me. You are unable to do that. I am a intelligent woman and I can't understand you. There is no way you could ever help educate a person with a low IQ about Jesus and your belief that he is the Son of God. What you say may make sense to you but it doesn't to me.

I don't mean that as a hurtful thing. I am only trying to help you understand that you don't communicate to the average person very well. That is just who you are. I sometimes do the same thing so I re-write what I have said until I come to the verbiage the person I am communicating with understands what I am saying. However, you just double down on your bloviating and when pinned against the wall you blame the person you are talking to for not understanding. In a nut shell: It is the messenger that has the problem, not the message or the recipient of the message.


Thank you for your time.

 

[mjrhealth]

And there have been others sent of God.... Buddha etc.

Sent of God, or claiming to be God ???

 

[Nancy]

I find it interesting that you were unable to learn anything from a Church that has been teaching basically the same thing for 2,000 years and then you move on to a Church (Lutheran) that has been around for 500 years only to leave it for another Church (assemblies of God) that has only been around for a little over 100 years to end up at a church that thinks about their message....of which you mostly agree.

PLEASE understand me when I say I am not being critical of your life path. I am just curious how this new Church is different and why it is better than all those other churches? You say you "mostly agree" with this new church. Why are they (and the other three) wrong in their message and you right?

You may be like @amadeus and may know the answers but expressing them in words is quite another thing. Are you unable to express in words how you know that the Church you are with now is teaching you the Truth? How do you know that those other three Churches that you left didn't have the Truth?

Curious Mary

Well, first off, the CC does not "teach", they give a homily here and there but it is a "Mass" not a bible teaching. And, since Satan has has his talons in the Church from day one, I could care less who has been around "longer"
If you had read a previous post of mine, you would know that I have NEVER believed in the EXACT same way in ALL areas with ALL of my pastors, teachers and authors. I do NOT believe that ANY church has ALL truth. I believe there will be a VERY small remnant chosen from ALL Christian churches. I never ever said I thought one church was right and one wrong! People leave certain bodies for various reasons. Where ever I left was ALWAYS on good terms and good reasons!

 

[amadeus]

Once again.....I had no expectation of getting a serious answer from you and you provided....

I don't understand and see because you are not a good communicator. You write lots of words but say nothing. If you want people to know WHY you believe what you believe you should be able to articulate that to a simple old (53 yoa) woman like me. You are unable to do that. I am a intelligent woman and I can't understand you. There is no way you could ever help educate a person with a low IQ about Jesus and your belief that he is the Son of God. What you say may make sense to you but it doesn't to me.

I don't mean that as a hurtful thing. I am only trying to help you understand that you don't communicate to the average person very well. That is just who you are. I sometimes do the same thing so I re-write what I have said until I come to the verbiage the person I am communicating with understands what I am saying. However, you just double down on your bloviating and when pinned against the wall you blame the person you are talking to for not understanding. In a nut shell: It is the messenger that has the problem, not the message or the recipient of the message.

Thank you for your time.

I guess I've just been communicating too long to the wrong people. My feelings are not hurt in the least. I'm 75 myself. Keep smiling!

 

[GodsGrace]

Sent of God, or claiming to be God ???

No one ever claimed to be God except Jesus.
This is one of the reasons Christianity is different from all other religions.

I mean "sent of God"....He was a Godly figure that tried to make man aspire to his higher self. Krishna would be another one... Maybe others but those are the two I know best.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess I've just been communicating too long to the wrong people. My feelings are not hurt in the least. I'm 75 myself. Keep smiling!

A,
I think what @Marymog means, and I'd have to agree with her premise, is that we are told to be ready to give an answer
1 Peter 3:15

So, let's say someone asked you WHY you believed in Jesus....
You would say that He spoke to your heart?

He speaks to all the hearts of the born again believer.
So if Jesus doesn't "speak to their heart" the seeker can't be born again?
If He had spoken to their heart --- they woldn't be seeking.

What they're really asking is HOW do you KNOW your "religion" is real and the other ones are "fake". I'm using quotes or this would be pages long.

IOW, Mary is looking for a SOLID reason of why you believe.

A solid reason cannot be a transcendental reason...."He spoke to my heart."


If you can't think of anything more "solid" and explainable to a non-believer....why would they listen to you??

Care to try again?
Or maybe there IS no other reason....

You think the Apostles REALLY saw Jesus after He died?
WHY??

 

[gadar perets]

No one ever claimed to be God except Jesus.

Yeshua never claimed to be God. Yeshua's Father, Almighty YHWH, is the only one that claimed to be God in Scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeshua never claimed to be God. Yeshua's Father, Almighty YHWH, is the only one that claimed to be God in Scripture.

You may just be right after all....
If we only had the "original" letters and gospels.

How do you explain that Jesus forgave sin?
Can't only God forgive sin?

 

[Helen]

A,
I think what @Marymog means, and I'd have to agree with her premise, is that we are told to be ready to give an answer
1 Peter 3:15

So, let's say someone asked you WHY you believed in Jesus....
You would say that He spoke to your heart?

He speaks to all the hearts of the born again believer.
So if Jesus doesn't "speak to their heart" the seeker can't be born again?
If He had spoken to their heart --- they woldn't be seeking.

What they're really asking is HOW do you KNOW your "religion" is real and the other ones are "fake". I'm using quotes or this would be pages long.

IOW, Mary is looking for a SOLID reason of why you believe.

A solid reason cannot be a transcendental reason...."He spoke to my heart."


If you can't think of anything more "solid" and explainable to a non-believer....why would they listen to you??

Care to try again?
Or maybe there IS no other reason....

You think the Apostles REALLY saw Jesus after He died?
WHY??

Hello there .
I must say that I agree with @amadeus .
Nothing can satisfy “others” with the testimony of why ‘we’ each believe.
@Marymog will not be satisfied with whatever answer he gives.
She likes to ask questions , but in all the time that she has been on this Site, I have never once seen her mention what God has done for her personally.
The only answer to her repeated question is...”By hearing. “
Noah heard God speak to him...he heard it and RECOGNIZED it as Gods Voice.
Abraham heard God speak, he recognized the Voice as Gods.
Moses heard God call out of the burning bush , and recognized the Voice of God....as so on with them all.

Our personal story is no different ...God spoke, called us, and we responded.
And that will never satisfy anyone.

That is why Christian’s are thought to be crazy, by the world.

 

[gadar perets]

You may just be right after all....
If we only had the "original" letters and gospels.

How do you explain that Jesus forgave sin?
Can't only God forgive sin?

Anyone can forgive sin IF YHWH gives him the authority to do so. The Father gave the Son that authority.

 

[amadeus]

A,
I think what @Marymog means, and I'd have to agree with her premise, is that we are told to be ready to give an answer
1 Peter 3:15

So, let's say someone asked you WHY you believed in Jesus....
You would say that He spoke to your heart?

Should I lie about it? It is the truth even if no one else believes it or accepts my words. For a given situation with a definite person I would have other words as God gave me words to speak. Unfortunately, our friend @Marymog wants black and white answers that fit even hypothetical situations. God does not always work like that. Our dear sister sometimes lays traps for people rather than simply trying to see where people are. She is an intelligent lady with apparently a reasonably good knowledge of history as men write it including religious history from a Catholic viewpoint. Not everyone has that and to expect a person to speak with the knowledge and wisdom of Jesus at all times is unreasonable. The ones who are closest to Jesus are probably rarely theologians or even aware of some of the things she expects from them. We are to be growing, but we won't all grow at the same rate or even in the same areas. We have different abilities and different callings. Some of are babies on milk and other are more mature on meat. God does not put us all into the same mold and neither should we try to do that with others.

He speaks to all the hearts of the born again believer.
So if Jesus doesn't "speak to their heart" the seeker can't be born again?
If He had spoken to their heart --- they woldn't be seeking.

Perhaps God does speak to every heart with a special word at times to the one who is really born again. On this forum people will argue vehemently over what it means to be "born again". Some will accuse others of NOT being born again because of their beliefs and so forth. All of the parts of the Body of Christ are not the same. Only God knows all of them.

What they're really asking is HOW do you KNOW your "religion" is real and the other ones are "fake". I'm using quotes or this would be pages long.

If they cannot see something worthwhile in my day to day walk, what can I say that would improve their vision? Vision of the things of God as I believe come from the Holy Ghost in us as we eat His flesh and drink His blood.

IOW, Mary is looking for a SOLID reason of why you believe.

A solid reason cannot be a transcendental reason...."He spoke to my heart."

Why not, if that is what happened? When I first was aware of God as a 6 year old boy getting baptized in the Catholic Church He was simply there and I knew it. How would one describe that to a skeptic so as to satisfy them?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

Solid evidence is what the Pharisees looked for in Jesus supposedly. Actually He gave them solid evidence and they still did not believe. It will be different with Marymog? Why? Because she is a believer? If she is then she should understand what faith is and she should understand that God does not speak to people ONLY in a still small voice as He did to Elijah.

If you can't think of anything more "solid" and explainable to a non-believer....why would they listen to you??

Think of? Do I need to conjure up and answer for you or her or anyone... or can I not wait on God and if He wants me to speak will He not give the Word required? A person reads and studies and prays. He eats the flesh and drinks the blood of Jesus. He does these things daily approaching hopefully a time when he is rejoicing in the Lords always and is praying without ceasing. Then when a person appears before him really hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God will he not be able to properly address that person?

Who needs black and white answers? Is that what God requires? Does He not require rather yielded, surrendered, willing vessels that He can use? Will He not fill the mouth of that vessel with the right words at the right time?

As to whether a non-believer will listen, he will if he is hungry and thirsty for the right things and I will speak those things if I am ready to be used of God. Solid evidence that I am ready is known to God. He makes use of what or who is available when He has a need.

Care to try again?
Or maybe there IS no other reason....

You think the Apostles REALLY saw Jesus after He died?
WHY??

If I were to say, yes, would that satisfy people? What if I lied to people? God knows my heart and would recognize the lie even if no one else did! If I fail the test here, what is my punishment? If I pass the test, what is my reward?

 

[Nancy]

Hello there .
I must say that I agree with @amadeus .
Nothing can satisfy “others” with the testimony of why ‘we’ each believe.
@Marymog will not be satisfied with whatever answer he gives.
She likes to ask questions , but in all the time that she has been on this Site, I have never once seen her mention what God has done for her personally.
The only answer to her repeated question is...”By hearing. “
Noah heard God speak to him...he heard it and RECOGNIZED it as Gods Voice.
Abraham heard God speak, he recognized the Voice as Gods.
Moses heard God call out of the burning bush , and recognized the Voice of God....as so on with them all.

Our personal story is no different ...God spoke, called us, and we responded.
And that will never satisfy anyone.

That is why Christian’s are thought to be crazy, by the world.

Good word Helen, lol...if we have a "personal" relationship God then, God deals with us accordingly so..."being ready to give a reason for the hope that is in us and why we believe, the reasons can come from so many different places that their testimony can be completely different than another's. I say, believe and receive. If one truly has a heart for God...they WILL seek Him and find Him if they seek with all their heart. If you are a scholar and have tons of "worldly intelligence" I suppose you could so how folks what is in the bible but then, it is nothing but empty words to most but, if an unsaved longtime friend sees the total difference in me...that gets them thinking because, I was out of control for too many years...now they (for the most part) have stopped contacting me. That's okay, I never have known Jesus to run after the unbelievers pleading with Him to BELIEVE! Amen. Okay, that's all

 

[Nancy]

Should I lie about it? It is the truth even if no one else believes it or accepts my words. For a given situation with a definite person I would have other words as God gave me words to speak. Unfortunately, our friend @Marymog wants black and white answers that fit even hypothetical situations. God does not always work like that. Our dear sister sometimes lay traps for people rather than to simply trying to see where people are. She is an intelligent lady with apparently a reasonably good knowledge of history as men write it including religious history from a Catholic viewpoint. Not everyone has that and to expect a person to speak with the knowledge and wisdom of Jesus at all times is unreasonable. The ones who are closest to Jesus are probably rarely theologians or even aware of some of the things she expects from them. We are to be growing, but we won't all grow at the same rate or even in the same areas. We have different abilities and different callings. Some of are babies on milk and other are more mature on meat. God does not put us all into the same mold and neither should we try to do that with others.


Perhaps God does speak to every heart with a special word at times to the one who is really born again. On this forum people will argue vehemently over what it means to be "born again". Some will accuse others of NOT being born again because of their beliefs and so forth. All of the parts of the Body of Christ are not the same. Only God knows all of them.


If they cannot see something worthwhile in my day to day walk, what can I say that would improve their vision? Vision of the things of God as I believe come from the Holy Ghost in us as we eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Why not, if that is what happened? When I first was aware of God as a 6 year old boy getting baptized in the Catholic Church He was simply there and I knew it. How would one describe that to a skeptic so as to satisfy them?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

Solid evidence is what the Pharisees looked for in Jesus supposedly. Actually He gave them solid evidence and they still did not believe. It will be different with Marymog? Why? Because she is a believer? If she is then she should understand what faith is and she should understand that God does not speak to people ONLY in a still small voice as He did to Elijah.


Think of? Do I need to conjure up and answer for you or her or anyone... of can I not wait on God and if He wants me to speak will He not give the Word required? A person reads and studies and prays. He eats the flesh and drinks the blood of Jesus. He does these things daily approaching hopefully a time when he is rejoicing in the Lords always and is praying without ceasing. Then when a person appears before him really hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God will he not be able to properly address that person?

Who needs black and white answers? Is that what God requires? Does He not require rather yielded, surrendered, willing vessels that He can use? Will He not fill the mouth of that vessel with the right words at the right time?

As whether a non-believer will listen, he will if he is hungry and thirsty for the right things and I will speak those things if I am ready to be used of God. Solid evidence that I am ready is known to God. He makes use of what or who is available when He has a need.


If I were to say, yes, would that will satisfy people? What if I lied to people? God knows my heart and would recognize the lie even if no one else did! If I fail the test here, what is my punishment? If I pass the test, what is my reward?

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and he chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.”

 

[Nancy]

Once again.....I had no expectation of getting a serious answer from you and you provided....

I don't understand and see because you are not a good communicator. You write lots of words but say nothing. If you want people to know WHY you believe what you believe you should be able to articulate that to a simple old (53 yoa) woman like me. You are unable to do that. I am a intelligent woman and I can't understand you. There is no way you could ever help educate a person with a low IQ about Jesus and your belief that he is the Son of God. What you say may make sense to you but it doesn't to me.

I don't mean that as a hurtful thing. I am only trying to help you understand that you don't communicate to the average person very well. That is just who you are. I sometimes do the same thing so I re-write what I have said until I come to the verbiage the person I am communicating with understands what I am saying. However, you just double down on your bloviating and when pinned against the wall you blame the person you are talking to for not understanding. In a nut shell: It is the messenger that has the problem, not the message or the recipient of the message.


Thank you for your time.

Maybe it makes no sense to you because you use your worldly knowledge, and worldly sight to "explain" the things of God so, I would say that there is no way that YOU could ever help "educate" a person with a low IQ. So, will these "lesser" people never become saved because they are not as bookish as you? @amadeus has been practicing his faith and reading the Word, is sensitive enough to be lead by The Holy Spirit for way longer than you and, he is a very mild mannered man. I can see way more people finding him approachable than you. " A soft word..." Arrogance and a know it all attitude repels...be careful.