Why isn't the shroud of turin in the bible

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amadeus

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Good answer John! If you remember, I too come from a Catholic background. Italian/Irish o_O Lol. First Communion, Confirmation, Religious Instruction every Tuesday after school...St. Joseph tables galore, lol...and food??!!!??? Oh yes...yum. I never learned much except for Jesus died for our sins. Back then I did not understand a thing said in Mass and there was no real teaching. My mom and dad decided to attend a Lutheran Church when I was around 13 or 14. I was shocked when I went for the 1st time as I thought every church was like the CC. I did eventually leave this Luthern Church and started to attend an Assemblies of God Church for about 4 years. Moved from that area and started with another and am with them today, love, love, love it there and, always think about their messages...of which I mostly agree ♥
Growth is the important thing... that is growth toward and in God. I had no "bad" experiences as a young Catholic. On the contrary, those were as a man of flesh some of my best times. The spiritual lack I was never able to clearly see then because I did not know what I was missing.
 
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Marymog

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Some years ago I saw a documentary with a group of “specialists.
They ended up , after all their studies saying they believe it was done by Michael Angelo !!
They said that he’d fallen out with the Pope because he didn’t pay him what was promised , so he “painted” the shroud to make a fool of him, so he could laugh behind his back.

Made a good story, ...interesting, but none of anything convinces me yet. :)
The STURP scientist said "no pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils" of the Shroud. It is as if the image is in the fabric, not on it.

Also, the earliest known record of the shroud appears on a commemorative medallion known as the Pilgrim's Medallion and that medallion is 100 years older than Michael Angelo soooo that, along with no paint on the Shroud, kind of puts a kink in the Michal Angelo theory.

Does that new information convince you that Michal Angelo DIDN'T "paint" the Shroud?

Historical and scientific Mary
 

Marymog

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Good answer John! If you remember, I too come from a Catholic background. Italian/Irish o_O Lol. First Communion, Confirmation, Religious Instruction every Tuesday after school...St. Joseph tables galore, lol...and food??!!!??? Oh yes...yum. I never learned much except for Jesus died for our sins. Back then I did not understand a thing said in Mass and there was no real teaching. My mom and dad decided to attend a Lutheran Church when I was around 13 or 14. I was shocked when I went for the 1st time as I thought every church was like the CC. I did eventually leave this Luthern Church and started to attend an Assemblies of God Church for about 4 years. Moved from that area and started with another and am with them today, love, love, love it there and, always think about their messages...of which I mostly agree ♥
I find it interesting that you were unable to learn anything from a Church that has been teaching basically the same thing for 2,000 years and then you move on to a Church (Lutheran) that has been around for 500 years only to leave it for another Church (assemblies of God) that has only been around for a little over 100 years to end up at a church that thinks about their message....of which you mostly agree.

PLEASE understand me when I say I am not being critical of your life path. I am just curious how this new Church is different and why it is better than all those other churches? You say you "mostly agree" with this new church. Why are they (and the other three) wrong in their message and you right?

You may be like @amadeus and may know the answers but expressing them in words is quite another thing. Are you unable to express in words how you know that the Church you are with now is teaching you the Truth? How do you know that those other three Churches that you left didn't have the Truth?

Curious Mary
 

amadeus

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Thank you.

You referenced In John 6:68 to make your point. How about we put it in a little bit more context? John 6:69 says "We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." How did they come to believe this Amadeus? Just because he said he was the Holy One of God? Or did he do something (like miracles) to prove it to them?
To initiate our walk with God a miracle may be used, but what is a miracle to God? Jesus also made this clear to me in these verses:

"For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
And he arose, and departed to his house." Matt 9:5-7


I don't emphasize too much what men would classify as miracles because for God all things are possible. Once a person recognizes that why would he stress the physically apparent miracle? I don't want to diminish its importance, but God wants us to be like Him, it for Him how important is it, really? What is God really like?

Why do you believe Jesus is life? If we take away His miracles wouldn't he be like Buddha?
Buddha is only a name I have heard and about whom I know little so I cannot make the comparison. What you are meaning to say, I guess, is that Jesus would be just another man without the miracles. But consider John the Baptist who never performed, nor was he used to perform, what men would usually called a miracle. Yet how highly do we usually esteem John among men? And … Jesus said this of John:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." matt 11:11

John was a great man according to Jesus, but John did not bring Life. The lack of discernible miracles is not the difference for in the OT we see miracles through Elijah and Elisha and others. Those prophets brought a message for God and worked the works of God, including miracles, but they did not bring Life either.

Jesus said that he was Life. Since I really had my own "road to Damascus" experience my own testimonies which are many declare to me what Life really is. It is not what those people who have no part of God but walk around in the flesh. Those are the real zombies. They are dead as Adam and Eve were dead after they disobeyed God.

Jesus performed many signs in the presence of his disciples and they are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. (John 20:30)

His greatest miracle, raising from the dead, validated His words and secured their belief in him. This miracle was so great that Peter would no longer deny him; even though he did just several days before His crucifixion.
Even raising a man of flesh from physical death was NOT his greatest miracle. From a fleshly point of view it certainly may seem so, but would not bringing the Life men that Adam and Eve lost with their disobedience be a greater miracle? The physical resurrection of Lazarus and others were simply types of shadows of the real Resurrection, were they not?

Is it fair to say that if the miracle of the Resurrection did not occur and Jesus didn't perform all of the miracles he would have just been a madman by saying He was the Son of God?

Mary
No, it is not fair to say that, because it leans too much on the hypothetical instead of upon that which God sent for people through His Son. We could hypothesize that things would have been different if Adam and Eve had not eaten of the forbidden tree and went instead directly to the Tree of Life and partook of that. God has and has had a plan always, but how much of it do we really understand?

Can we or should we hypothesize as what would have been the result for mankind without the Resurrection of Jesus? That Resurrection was included always in God's Plan. Our hypothesis as what would have happened with the Resurrection would be foolishness because the only One capable of revising God's Plan would be God Himself, the only One understood and understand the Plan completely.
 
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Marymog

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You ask some deep questions. I may know the answers but expressing them in words is quite another thing.
Hmmmm......here are the questions I asked: What evidence did Jesus provide to compel you to follow and BELIEVE in him? Without the miracles He performed, would you still follow him?

They don't seem that deep to me. Your inabillaty to answer them suggest to me that you are not prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. :( 1 peter 3:15

Sad Mary
 

Marymog

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To initiate our walk with God a miracle may be used, but what is a miracle to God? Jesus also made this clear to me in these verses:

"For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
And he arose, and departed to his house." Matt 9:5-7


I don't emphasize too much what men would classify as miracles because for God all things are possible. Once a person recognizes that why would he stress the physically apparent miracle? I don't want to diminish its importance, but God wants us to be like Him, it for Him how important is it, really? What is God really like?


Buddha is only a name I have heard and about whom I know little so I cannot make the comparison. What you are meaning to say, I guess, is that Jesus would be just another man without the miracles. But consider John the Baptist who never performed, nor was he used to perform, what men would usually called a miracle. Yet how highly do we usually esteem John among men? And … Jesus said this of John:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." matt 11:11

John was a great man according to Jesus, but John did not bring Life. The lack of discernible miracles is not the difference for in the OT we see miracles through Elijah and Elisha and others. Those prophets brought a message for God and worked the works of God, including miracles, but they did not bring Life either.

Jesus said that he was Life. Since I really had my own "road to Damascus" experience my own testimonies which are many declare to me what Life really is. It is not what those people who have no part of God but walk around in the flesh. Those are the real zombies. They are dead as Adam and Eve were dead after they disobeyed God.


Even raising a man of flesh from physical death was NOT his greatest miracle. From a fleshly point of view it certainly may seem so, but would not bringing the Life men that Adam and Eve lost with their disobedience be a greater miracle? The physical resurrection of Lazarus and others were simply types of shadows of the real Resurrection, were they not?


No, it is not fair to say that, because it leans too much on the hypothetical instead of upon that which God sent for people through His Son. We could hypothesize that things would have been different if Adam and Eve had not eaten of the forbidden tree and went instead directly to the Tree of Life and partook of that. God has and has had a plan always, but how much of it do we really understand?

Can we or should we hypothesize as what would have been the result for mankind without the Resurrection of Jesus? That Resurrection was included always in God's Plan. Our hypothesis as what would have happened with the Resurrection would be foolishness because the only One capable of revising God's Plan would be God Himself, the only One understood and understand the Plan completely.
OK....A lot of words that don't make sense to me AND I can't find the answer to my questions.

In summary it seems to me you are saying if Jesus hadn't performed all of the miracles and raised from the dead (he was just a man of words) you would still believe he was the Son of God?

Mary
 

amadeus

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Hmmmm......here are the questions I asked: What evidence did Jesus provide to compel you to follow and BELIEVE in him? Without the miracles He performed, would you still follow him?

They don't seem that deep to me. Your inabillaty to answer them suggest to me that you are not prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. :( 1 peter 3:15

Sad Mary
I think I did answer you in another post, but consider that if people live by faith, are they all also theologians with all of the detailed answers that you or others may request of require? A person does have the answer that God has, if he really has the "goods" but it is not always time to speak, is it?

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

"A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

"Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly." Matt 27:13-14
 
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amadeus

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OK....A lot of words that don't make sense to me AND I can't find the answer to my questions.

In summary it seems to me you are saying if Jesus hadn't performed all of the miracles and raised from the dead (he was just a man of words) you would still believe he was the Son of God?

Mary
I was not witness to those miracles with my physical eyes. I read about them in scripture. Where is my faith? Where did it come from? Read the scriptures as led by the Holy Spirit and surely you will understand my answer.

My witness, what I have witnessed, is described in my personal testimonies many of which are found here on this forum.
 
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Marymog

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I think I did answer you in another post, but consider that if people live by faith, are they all also theologians with all of the detailed answers that you or others may request of require? A person does have the answer that God has, if he really has the "goods" but it is not always time to speak, is it?

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

"A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

"Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly." Matt 27:13-14
No, I don't think you did answer me. I asked what evidence did Jesus provide to compel YOU to follow and BELIEVE in him? You NEVER gave the evidence.

Your response included a scripture passage about having faith by hearing. Also how Peter believed Him. Peter would not have died for his belief in Jesus if Jesus didn't prove WITH EVIDENCE to Peter who he said he was. If those are your answers that leads me to another question:

You HEARD about Jesus thru Scripture. That Scripture included Jesus words about how we should treat each other and how to obtain eternal salvation. He also DID something; MIRACLES. Anyone can talk (like Buddha) but not anyone can perform miracles.

Sooooo what EVIDENCE did Jesus provide to compel YOU to BELIEVE him? Words are not evidence....;)

Mary
 
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Marymog

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I was not witness to those miracles with my physical eyes. I read about them in scripture. Where is my faith? Where did it come from? Read the scriptures as led by the Holy Spirit and surely you will understand my answer.

My witness, what I have witnessed, is described in my personal testimonies many of which are found here on this forum.
Oh goodness......Your killing me.

Your said your faith came from reading Scripture. What in Scripture provided you the EVIDENCE that Jesus was who he said he was? Do you believe he is the Son of God just because he said "I AM"? A lot of men have said the same thing. Why don't you believe them???

Your personal testimonies???? What personal testimonies? You have personally experienced miracles like those spoken of in Scripture???

Mary
 
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amadeus

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No, I don't think you did answer me. I asked what evidence did Jesus provide to compel YOU to follow and BELIEVE in him? You NEVER gave the evidence.

Perhaps I did not, but the evidence is in me rather than as something we can measure as men measure things or that we can read about or find in study along as men do. The evidence is what God put in my heart. You cannot see it or understand it unless God has opened your eyes to what is in me. It starts as faith but eventually there will be an end of faith. The end is in and of Jesus:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

Your response included a scripture passage about having faith by hearing. Also how Peter believed Him. Peter would not have died for his belief in Jesus if Jesus didn't prove WITH EVIDENCE to Peter who he said he was. If those are your answers that leads me to another question:

You HEARD about Jesus thru Scripture. That Scripture included Jesus words about how we should treat each other and how to obtain eternal salvation. He also DID something; MIRACLES. Anyone can talk (like Buddha) but not anyone can perform miracles.
Again your emphasis on miracles. I admitted that the witness of a physical miracle could lead a person to walk with God, but as you know many who have witnessed continue to seek only the loaves and the fishes:

"Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled." John 6:26

Sooooo what EVIDENCE did Jesus provide to compel YOU to BELIEVE him? Words are not evidence....;)

Mary
Words are not evidence? Not even when Jesus spoke the Word and a person was healed... physically healed?

"The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed." Matt 8:8

"And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." Matt 8:13

Jesus has certainly spoken to me and thereby have I been healed. You look still for evidence. If the evidence is not in your heart already, would you accept anything I could give you? Would you believe my testimony? Would you accept the word of Jesus? To this last you may answer, yes, but so would many here who you will not believe. Are we all liars who say that God or Jesus has spoken to us? You certainly question my testimony but it is true nonetheless. I have no proof to offer that has not been offered or given.

You may say, 'but your words are not the words of Jesus', and what should I say more? What if my words are the Word, that is Jesus, and you are simply unable to know them?

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4
 
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amadeus

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Oh goodness......Your killing me.

Your said your faith came from reading Scripture. What in Scripture provided you the EVIDENCE that Jesus was who he said he was? Do you believe he is the Son of God just because he said "I AM"? A lot of men have said the same thing. Why don't you believe them???

Your personal testimonies???? What personal testimonies? You have personally experienced miracles like those spoken of in Scripture???

Mary
My faith comes from the Word of God. You, like many speak of scripture and the Word of God as being one. Was the dead body of Jesus the Word of God when it was dead on the cross prior to His Resurrection?

I hear Jesus and not everyone else who says that He is when I recognize His voice. Only the sheep; not the goats.

You are still speaking of miracles with awe as if that which man witnesses with physical senses must be greater than that witnessed with the "eyes to see" and the "ears to hear" which we have from and by the Holy Ghost.

I was dead and now I am Alive! Do you doubt my testimony? The proof is already there those with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear". Are you saying that you have no such testimony, yourself?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

He has certainly rewarded me. Do you doubt that He has rewarded anyone who has believed that He is?
 
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Marymog

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Perhaps I did not, but the evidence is in me rather than as something we can measure as men measure things or that we can read about or find in study along as men do. The evidence is what God put in my heart. You cannot see it or understand it unless God has opened your eyes to what is in me. It starts as faith but eventually there will be an end of faith. The end is in and of Jesus:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2


Again your emphasis on miracles. I admitted that the witness of a physical miracle could lead a person to walk with God, but as you know many who have witnessed continue to seek only the loaves and the fishes:

"Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled." John 6:26


Words are not evidence? Not even when Jesus spoke the Word and a person was healed... physically healed?

"The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed." Matt 8:8

"And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." Matt 8:13

Jesus has certainly spoken to me and thereby have I been healed. You look still for evidence. If the evidence is not in your heart already, would you accept anything I could give you? Would you believe my testimony? Would you accept the word of Jesus? To this last you may answer, yes, but so would many here who you will not believe. Are we all liars who say that God or Jesus has spoken to us? You certainly question my testimony but it is true nonetheless. I have no proof to offer that has not been offered or given.

You may say, 'but your words are not the words of Jesus', and what should I say more? What if my words are the Word, that is Jesus, and you are simply unable to know them?

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4
You said the "evidence is in you". What is that evidence?
 

GodsGrace

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I've done tons of hours of research and not only has it not been debunked but there seem to be multiple pieces of evidence supporting it being the real burial cloth of Jesus and proof of his resurrection, what I'm asking is, is there any reason a miracle like this would be left out of the bible
You bring up an interesting question.
The Apostles Peter and John got to the tomb first. I mean, after Mary M. told them Jesus was missing.

They found the cloth covering Jesus in the tomb. Could it be that it was marked with His body and they did NOT mention it?

I just want to say that the carbon dating could be wrong. I've heard explanations of why it might not be dependable.

Sorry I don't have much else to add.
I know that pollen from Israel in those times were found on it and if I remember, a coin from that time with a Ceaser on it.

Interesting question.
 

GodsGrace

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Does the bible actually say all we need is scripture
It's all we have to go on.
1 John 1:1-4

We also need writings outside of scripture for those who really want to study the bible and those times.

Oh. And it's really all we need if we're only interested in what God wants us to know about Him that will allow us to walk with Him and be with Him after death.
 

GodsGrace

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Thank you. What is written in your heart?
Good question!

I'm starting to think not much is written in a lot of person's heart.
I DO NOT MEAN AMADEUS!!!!!

I just heard that we could TURN OUR BACK ON GOD
and still be saved.

It's the OSAS doctrine.
It's straight out of hell.
Satan couldn't figure out a better way how to get people lost!

They tell me they're not under THE LAW anymore.
Jesus does it all.

Trouble is: They don't understand what THE LAW is.
I'm not under the law either....
but I still have to obey the commandments.

Oh my.
 

Marymog

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Good question!

I'm starting to think not much is written in a lot of person's heart.
I DO NOT MEAN AMADEUS!!!!!

I just heard that we could TURN OUR BACK ON GOD
and still be saved.

It's the OSAS doctrine.
It's straight out of hell.
Satan couldn't figure out a better way how to get people lost!

They tell me they're not under THE LAW anymore.
Jesus does it all.

Trouble is: They don't understand what THE LAW is.
I'm not under the law either....
but I still have to obey the commandments.

Oh my.
Thank you GG.

The subject is what evidence did Jesus give YOU that he is the Son of God.

Do you believe it is just "written into your heart" or does/did it take more than that?

Mary

PS...who said we could turn our back on God and still be saved? Did you read it on the internet and if so would you provide me the link?