Why People Don't Believe: Sex & Time

[Cassandra]

How can Christians say with a straight face that both men and women who are saved make up the bride and wife of Christ AND homosexuality is condemned?

This is just out there. I need a nap.

 

[bbyrd009]

The point of this thread is why does the Bible call men to be the Bride and Wife of Christ WHILE also condemning homosexuality. Then, this apparent contradiction becomes an understandable wedge issue for why people don’t believe, don’t come to Christ.

i guess there is quite a bit of debate about arsenokoitai, there seems to even be a valid argument that Paul coined the term? Greeks apparently had no probs with “homosexual,” near as i can tell.

to bring up the point that we are arguing from an English understanding, since i suspect that our homosexuals are…not their arsenokoitai

 

[Bob Estey]

Just finished reading Revelations. I'll add the verses later but it occurred to me why people don't believe and it involves sex and time.

Regarding sex; condemnations against homosexuality has to be seen as in the context of the Bride and Wife of the Lamb, who is made up of many men.

Regarding time; Jesus says he is coming soon and very soon. See Rev 22:7, 12, 22. At another place, he says his return is before this generation will pass. It is under obvious that the Apostles thought the End Times, the 2nd Coming of Christ would be in their lifetimes.

To resist the concerns of these points, is IMO, like the wind against a kite - the cause of the disbelief to rise, to be reinforced and solidified. While Christ followers seem to find it easier to address the concerns over sex, the tendency is to defend the concerns over time, which either goes against 2 Corinthians 1:13 or is condescending of their "understanding", such as a day is like a thousand years to the LORD. (This side steps the point of the timing for us humans.)

Rather than defend HOW Scripture is right and our understanding it wrong, I think it would be more effective at persuasion to concede that these are concerning matters (you understand their concerns) and that like them, you too don't fully understand all of Scripture (without going into specifics), then turn attention to why you do believe and why they should believe also.

IMO, this is an opportunity to build a relationship with other image bearer's of God rather than deepen the divide over theological minutia - compared to helping to bring another soul to Christ. Thoughts?

I think God's statement regarding homosexuality (Leviticus 18:22) is quite clear.

 

[Wrangler]

I think God's statement regarding homosexuality (Leviticus 18:22) is quite clear.

Agreed. That is not the point. The point is how do you reconcile the prohibition against homosexuality with men comprising some of the Bride & Wife of Christ?

 

[Bob Estey]

Agreed. That is not the point. The point is how do you reconcile the prohibition against homosexuality with men comprising some of the Bride & Wife of Christ?

Naturally, there are people that would want to turn the "bride of Christ" reference into a sexual thing. To them, life and sex are synonymous. But I think it is reference to the need for us to be in constant prayer (1 Thessalonians 5:17).

 

[Wrangler]

Naturally, there are people that would want to turn the "bride of Christ" reference into a sexual thing.

AS IF marriage is for any other reason than sex and life (through time via descendants).

 

[lilygrace]

the Kingdom of Heaven is like field too.
a lot of things are symbolic and comparisons.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think you are still missing what this thread is about if you replace men with the church. Those that don't believe will not find this obtuse response an effective persuasion tool. How can Christians say with a straight face that both men and women who are saved make up the bride and wife of Christ AND homosexuality is condemned?

There is no sex in heaven, no marriage between men and women spirits. The figure of speech is a simile, using like or as to compare two things that are different: the comparison is between the relationship between a husband and wife in marriage, who become one and the relationship between the Church and Christ, who become one. The Church is the Bride consisting of all human believers. We will be spiritual beings in heaven, but no marriage. I will be Ron and Alice will be Alice, but there will be no marriage or sex in heaven. We will all be eunuchs up there. Down here we need to be heterosexual ... or else!

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," Eph. 5:25

"Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure” Rev. 19:7

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev. 21:2
For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. Is. 62:5

It is just figuratively expressing unity, love, oneness with Christ.
-------
As far as time goes, every generation was given this sense of urgency that Christ could come at any time as so each generation lived that way, stayed sober if you will anticipating His coming. The is one mystery of scripture that was intended. If prophecy said Christ will return in 2023 then all those generations might live differently.

 

[Wrangler]

the Kingdom of Heaven is like field too.
a lot of things are symbolic and comparisons.

Symbolically advocate for the Sun of homosexuality? There has to be a compelling response to people who don’t believe because of the time and sex contradictions.

Given homosexuality is a sin, why symbolically suggest it?

 

[lilygrace]

your post is unclear.

Symbolically advocate for the Sun of homosexuality? There has to be a compelling response to people who don’t believe because of the time and sex contradictions.

Given homosexuality is a sin, why symbolically suggest it?

 

[Bob Estey]

AS IF marriage is for any other reason than sex and life (through time via descendants).

Hopefully marriage is more than that.

 

[Wrangler]

There is no sex in heaven, no marriage between men and women spirits.

Not an answer to my question. Moreover, this thread is not about heaven or spirits.

Interesting. Do you deny that both men and women make up the wife and bride of Christ?

I think you are still missing what this thread is about if you replace men with the church. Those that don't believe will not find this obtuse response an effective persuasion tool. How can Christians say with a straight face that both men and women who are saved make up the bride and wife of Christ AND homosexuality is condemned?

 

[Wrangler]

your post is unclear.

I meant Symbolically advocate for the SIN of homosexuality?

 

[Wrangler]

Hopefully marriage is more than that.

Everything is more than it’s defining characteristic.

You cannot tell people to only have sex in marriage then deny marriage involves sex. And men being the bride to another man is gay marriage, confined in Scripture.

What do we say to this who don’t believe on this basis?

 

[lilygrace]

I meant Symbolically advocate for the SIN of homosexuality?

Who is doing that?

 

[Wrangler]

Who is doing that?

The Bible, when it speaks of men being a Bride and Wife in a marriage.

Haven’t you paid attention to anything I’ve written? These obtuse ‘conversations’ go in circles. Who’s on 1st? Prohibition against homosexuality. What’s on 2nd? Men compromising the Bride and Wife in a marriage. I don’t know’s on 3rd? Having homosexual sex in a gay marriage.

It’s symbolic - AS IF it changes anything.

 

[lilygrace]

I have listened to you wrangler and believe Jesus and much of the bible uses comparisons a lot including marriage. Since i seemed to rub you the wrong way i have nothing more to say. God is still mysterious to me.

 

[Bob Estey]

Everything is more than it’s defining characteristic.

You cannot tell people to only have sex in marriage then deny marriage involves sex. And men being the bride to another man is gay marriage, confined in Scripture.

What do we say to this who don’t believe on this basis?

Is it necessary to have sex at all?

 

[Wrangler]

Is it necessary to have sex at all?

It is necessary to have marriage?

 

[Taken]

Just finished reading Revelations. I'll add the verses later but it occurred to me why people don't believe and it involves sex and time.

Regarding sex; condemnations against homosexuality has to be seen as in the context of the Bride and Wife of the Lamb, who is made up of many men.

Regarding time; Jesus says he is coming soon and very soon. See Rev 22:7, 12, 22. At another place, he says his return is before this generation will pass. It is under obvious that the Apostles thought the End Times, the 2nd Coming of Christ would be in their lifetimes.

Regarding sex;
God created and made man and woman to multiply.
Multiplying requires a man and a woman to engage in sexual intercourse.
There is no course of engagement for a woman and a woman to multiply.
There is no course of engagement for a man and a man to multiply.

Remember: Division is occurring. People are taking their individual Freewill Stand WITH or WITHOUT God.

Remember: Don’t fret about what men and women Freely Choose.

Remember: God has already promised to CLAIM and TAKE unto Himself that which IS and IN Standing WITH Him.

Regarding time:
The Son of Man came to earth.
Men SAW Him.
Men heard, learned, believed, committed to Him.
What did they LEARN?
What they SAW was a man.
What they heard, learned, believed, committed to...WAS GOD.
Was THAT generation waiting for the RETURN of the Son of Man?
No.
THAT generation was waiting for the HOLY SPIRIT to Baptize them.
Did the Holy Spirit come to them, Baptize them, in their generation?
Yes.