Why the FLESH is against the SPIRIT.

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ScottA

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Hebrews does speak of those who are not yet matured, who are still babes needing the milk of the word, not yet able to bear the meat of the word. And that we need to leave the foundational things and go on to perfection. So that is one place where scripture does speak of a process of growth and maturing in Christ. But those who are not yet matured are still in covenant with Christ, and therefore saved, surely...?

But I believe it's true the Lord is leading His own to a state of total surrender and consecration though, and that is kind of the goal for this life, for those who reach it in this life. Looking at the example of the Israelites who had to cross two obstacles as it were, the Red Sea and then finally the Jordan River. (Even in nature looking at the birthing process there are two narrow gateways, so to speak, to get through in order for a baby to be born.) Interesting that there were two outpourings of water from the Rock in the wilderness, and at the banks of the Jordan the Israelites were "circumcised a second time".

Heb 10:29

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

In the Heb. 10 scripture above, which you quoted, I don't see how anyone under the blood of the covenant could not be saved, even if they are not yet matured. Scripture speaks somewhere of salvation in past tense, present tense as well as future tense....we WERE saved when we came to faith in Christ, we ARE saved (saved by hope, for who hopes for what he already hath?) and we WILL BE saved from wrath at the coming of the Lord.
The reality of mankind and those being saved in contrast with the reality of God, should be understood as whatever time it takes to come fully under and in Christ, is that of our own times, and not of God eternity.

So whether we take the long way or the short, that way is our own, while God's part is that eternal part spoken of in Revelation showing the kingdom of God to have "no shadow of turning"--no time. It is from this understanding that comes the explanation of our salvation event occurring "in the twinkling of an eye", which in His greater reality is eternally timeless.

As for all under the blood of the covenant, "many are called, but few chosen" speaks of those two different components of our salvation event, which are made up of our times approaching, and God's timeless finishing act. Which is to say, the act of God is the time of salvation, rather than the time during which one is drawn or called...as the decision of being "chosen" has not yet occurred until the end of our time approaching...which is biblically referred to as "the valley of decision."

The act of being "chosen" by God is then technically the time of our salvation...which is a simultaneous moment where if and when we come fully, and of God's choosing. Incidentally, this is that same "day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but the Father only."
 
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1stCenturyLady

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"Esoteric" it is, as I explained.

In this same way only the prophets of old and those chosen, were given the things of revelation from God. It was not to be different even to the end, for the scriptures do not at all say that all who receive the Holy Spirit receive all truth all equally at one time, but rather that we are to be lead unto all truth over the course of these times.

Perhaps you could restate your question.


Okay. Before the 'book' you wrote lol, it seemed as if you thought our being born again was in the twinkling of an eye - meaning our body. But our body dies, so our body is not what is born again now and is eternal. So what would you say changes in us now when we become a Christian?
 

1stCenturyLady

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So whether we take the long way or the short, that way is our own

I agree to a point.

Philippians 1:
He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Scott, what do you think it is that God does, and what is it that we must do?
 

Behold

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The act of being "chosen" by God is then technically the time of our salvation...which is a simultaneous moment where if and when we come fully, and of God's choosing. Incidentally, this is that same "day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but the Father only."

You have to be very precise when you refer to "God choosing", regarding Salvation.
This is because there is a demonic cult that teaches that God chooses only some for Heaven, and CHOOSES others for Hell, by not allowing them to Trust In Christ.
So, that hell born theology is known as the "predestined elect" theology and was sired by John Calvin.
This could very well be the worst of the worst, regarding a Cult Denomination's teaching, as it is defining God as a cosmic psychopath who sent His Son to the Cross to only die for SOME....
This anti-Christ, Cross Denying, Cult Theology, is fully engaged in rejecting God's Grace.
You'll find that many of the people who are mentally trapped by "Hyper Calvinism".. will tell you....'Im a Calvinist"., as in their warped perspective, this is the same, they believe, as saying "im a Christian".

Here is what we know about being "God Chosen".

Jesus said....>"if i be Lifted UP (on the Cross) i will will draw everyone to me".

John wrote... John 3:16 .."For God so loved the WORLD." "And whosoever BELIEVES"..... God will cause to become a Son/Daughter of God......a "new Creation in Christ".

Paul teaches...>"NOW is the DAY of Salvation". and..."Faith (in Christ) comes by HEARING".... The Gospel.
 
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ScottA

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Okay. Before the 'book' you wrote lol, it seemed as if you thought our being born again was in the twinkling of an eye - meaning our body. But our body dies, so our body is not what is born again now and is eternal. So what would you say changes in us now when we become a Christian?
I agree to a point.

Philippians 1:
He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Scott, what do you think it is that God does, and what is it that we must do?
Yes, now I recall you bringing that up.

Sorry for the "book"...I am making up for 2,000 years of unbelief and false doctrine and speaking against what most have wrongly believed.​

Your point and question regarding what I said about being born again, is why I went on about the timelessness of the events of God. It is because they could not bear the whole truth so long ago. Nonetheless, there are two sides to the salvation event: the side of the believer coming to full and complete belief and surrender (with no remaining reservations or doubts), and God's eternal side, where everything written comes to fruition for the one being saved. This is why Jesus referred to it as "entering in", because, even though the believer may remain in the world and the clock and calendar continue to run, it is not so in the kingdom. Which is why the saying that "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever" is most accurately state by God rather as "I am", with no reference to time at all as in the explanation that includes yesterday, etc.; and why it is also correct to say, "now is the time of salvation", meaning that any moment one can "enter in" to the eternity of God.

So then, the confusion on this point and this new phenomena since Pentecost, is that when "it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives in them", it has not been fully understood what is meant by being "alive and remaining" in the world as Paul explained. And if, or since it is not the person, but Christ, why would there appear to be ongoing sin? Most have simply not believed the full biblical account and process of what occurs regarding salvation, as it is written. Even now, when Paul said that the twinkling of an eye moment comes transforming one from being of the world to not being of the world, saying "but each one in his own order" rather than at some mass, end of the world event...and I repeat it, saying that is the moment spoken of--it is still not believed. Which makes it not unlike Jesus saying you must eat of His flesh and drink His blood, and for which many walked away and did not follow Him any longer.

But what should be believed if one is not to turn and walk away from the full biblical account and explanation, is that "Christ in you" was foreshadowed by Him between His resurrection and His ascension, where He was in the flesh specifically carrying your sin, just as He retained the marks of sin in His own flesh during that time. This is what John referred to about the "spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh." Which speaks of the born again spirit, rather than those who have not yet been born of the spirit of God.

The difficulty in understanding that is, although it is not you who lives during that time between your moment of salvation and the earthly passing of your flesh body, is that He does not sin, even though you likely will. This is because, even though that moment has come and gone, "It is finished" in Him, but not in you, even though the price is fully paid. But unless we are willing to say we have not received Him and that He is not in us and us not in Him, then we cannot but believe that these times of being "in Christ" are the times of us reigning with Him until the end. In which case we are to believe that our times are and were all in that moment according to the events as God and therefore without time--because we are no longer of the world, rather than believing as the world would count out the days remaining. In which case--that is according to the world, to God our salvation takes a u turn and stops just shy of the intersection of entering into the eternity of God, a maneuver which indeed could result in the loss of salvation--because we would have effectively turned back as those who walked away, meaning we are not actually following, but have stopped following. And for some...that becomes a way of life until the end...when it need not be so.
 

ScottA

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You have to be very precise when you refer to "God choosing", regarding Salvation.
This is because there is a demonic cult that teaches that God chooses only some for Heaven, and CHOOSES others for Hell, by not allowing them to Trust In Christ.
So, that hell born theology is known as the "predestined elect" theology and was sired by John Calvin.
This could very well be the worst of the worst, regarding a Cult Denomination's teaching, as it is defining God as a cosmic psychopath who sent His Son to the Cross to only die for SOME....
This anti-Christ, Cross Denying, Cult Theology, is fully engaged in rejecting God's Grace.
You'll find that many of the people who are mentally trapped by "Hyper Calvinism".. will tell you....'Im a Calvinist"., as in their warped perspective, this is the same, they believe, as saying "im a Christian".

Here is what we know about being "God Chosen".

Jesus said....>"if i be Lifted UP (on the Cross) i will will draw everyone to me".

John wrote... John 3:16 .."For God so loved the WORLD." "And whosoever BELIEVES"..... God will cause to become a Son/Daughter of God......a "new Creation in Christ".

Paul teaches...>"NOW is the DAY of Salvation". and..."Faith (in Christ) comes by HEARING".... The Gospel.
Good grief! That sounds horrific.

However, it does also sound like you believe that salvation is 100%. Is that what you meant? Sorry if I misunderstood you.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Yes, now I recall you bringing that up.

Sorry for the "book"...I am making up for 2,000 years of unbelief and false doctrine and speaking against what most have wrongly believed.​

Your point and question regarding what I said about being born again, is why I went on about the timelessness of the events of God. It is because they could not bear the whole truth so long ago. Nonetheless, there are two sides to the salvation event: the side of the believer coming to full and complete belief and surrender (with no remaining reservations or doubts), and God's eternal side, where everything written comes to fruition for the one being saved. This is why Jesus referred to it as "entering in", because, even though the believer may remain in the world and the clock and calendar continue to run, it is not so in the kingdom. Which is why the saying that "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever" is most accurately state by God rather as "I am", with no reference to time at all as in the explanation that includes yesterday, etc.; and why it is also correct to say, "now is the time of salvation", meaning that any moment one can "enter in" to the eternity of God.

So then, the confusion on this point and this new phenomena since Pentecost, is that when "it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives in them", it has not been fully understood what is meant by being "alive and remaining" in the world as Paul explained. And if, or since it is not the person, but Christ, why would there appear to be ongoing sin? Most have simply not believed the full biblical account and process of what occurs regarding salvation, as it is written. Even now, when Paul said that the twinkling of an eye moment comes transforming one from being of the world to not being of the world, saying "but each one in his own order" rather than at some mass, end of the world event...and I repeat it, saying that is the moment spoken of--it is still not believed. Which makes it not unlike Jesus saying you must eat of His flesh and drink His blood, and for which many walked away and did not follow Him any longer.

But what should be believed if one is not to turn and walk away from the full biblical account and explanation, is that "Christ in you" was foreshadowed by Him between His resurrection and His ascension, where He was in the flesh specifically carrying your sin, just as He retained the marks of sin in His own flesh during that time. This is what John referred to about the "spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh." Which speaks of the born again spirit, rather than those who have not yet been born of the spirit of God.

The difficulty in understanding that is, although it is not you who lives during that time between your moment of salvation and the earthly passing of your flesh body, is that He does not sin, even though you likely will. This is because, even though that moment has come and gone, "It is finished" in Him, but not in you, even though the price is fully paid. But unless we are willing to say we have not received Him and that He is not in us and us not in Him, then we cannot but believe that these times of being "in Christ" are the times of us reigning with Him until the end. In which case we are to believe that our times are and were all in that moment according to the events as God and therefore without time--because we are no longer of the world, rather than believing as the world would count out the days remaining. In which case--that is according to the world, to God our salvation takes a u turn and stops just shy of the intersection of entering into the eternity of God, a maneuver which indeed could result in the loss of salvation--because we would have effectively turned back as those who walked away, meaning we are not actually following, but have stopped following. And for some...that becomes a way of life until the end...when it need not be so.

Again, I'll print it and read it later in bed.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Good grief! That sounds horrific.

However, it does also sound like you believe that salvation is 100%. Is that what you meant? Sorry if I misunderstood you.

He might have been asking if you are a Calvinist just to be clear. Are you associated with a known denomination?
 

1stCenturyLady

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Good grief! That sounds horrific.

However, it does also sound like you believe that salvation is 100%. Is that what you meant? Sorry if I misunderstood you.

What do you question regarding salvation and it being 100%. Personally, I believe that we always have freedom of choice before and after being born again. Salvation is 100% when we die. Until then we are on the narrow path towards salvation. We can test ourselves along the say and see if we are "keeping" ourselves 1 John 5:18, and being "pure." 1 John 3:3. But we must always work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I know @Behold will balk at that even though it is scripture, but that is where OSAS Calvinist theology has even touched him. But I agree with him that Calvinism is dangerous because it makes dead Christians. He just doesn't realize that OSAS is part of that cult. Revelation 3:1.
 

ScottA

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What do you question regarding salvation and it being 100%. Personally, I believe that we always have freedom of choice before and after being born again. Salvation is 100% when we die. Until then we are on the narrow path towards salvation. We can test ourselves along the say and see if we are "keeping" ourselves 1 John 5:18, and being "pure." 1 John 3:3. But we must always work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I know @Behold will balk at that even though it is scripture, but that is where OSAS Calvinist theology has even touched him. But I agree with him that Calvinism is dangerous because it makes dead Christians. He just doesn't realize that OSAS is part of that cult. Revelation 3:1.
No, sorry, I meant 100% as in everyone is to be saved. Which of course is not true according to scripture, as all are raised up, but "Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."
 

1stCenturyLady

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No, sorry, I meant 100% as in everyone is to be saved. Which of course is not true according to scripture, as all are raised up, but "Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Oh, I get it. Yes, it is not the will of God that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
 

DanielConway

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The unspoken premise behind the arminnian position on the POTENTIAL for salvation purchased at the cross is that God loves us, therefore all of us deserve a shot at salvation. Let me put this bluntly, God loves himself and his Son more than he loves us and therefore will allow neither his sovierenty nor his justice to be compromised. How can I have the temerity to say that God loves himself more than he loves us? Because that's what he COMMANDS us to do. The Calvinist position is difficult for some people to swallow because they have an inflated notion of the worth of mankind to God and a diminutive take on the point of God's love for himself, his sovierenty and his holiness.
 
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The unspoken premise behind the arminnian position on the POTENTIAL for salvation purchased at the cross is that God loves us, therefore all of us deserve a shot at salvation.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
.

GRACE, Peace, And JOY...
 

Behold

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God loves himself and his Son more than he loves us s.

That's nonsense, and quite an insult you posted for God to read.

Listen, God said that there is no Greater love then for you to lay down your life for your Friend.
But God's love is GREATER then your love, or mine, as "God first LOVED US"..
Also.... God's love is given for HIS ENEMIES......as that is how Great a Love God has for humans.
Christ , who is God, .. nailed to the Cross by His enemies, and for your sin and mine, looked into the Eyes of His enemies as they were MOCKING Him to """come off that Cross if you are the Messiah"", , and He LOVED THEM, His ENEMIES, and asked God to "forgive them."

Do you love your enemies?
Would you lay down you life for an Islamic Terrorist?

GOD ALREADY DID, Daniel.
See Christ on the CROSS.....for the update.
So, take another look at God's LOVE as your view is not related to God's reality.
 

DanielConway

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Luke 26 “If anyone comes to Me land does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." Everything you wrote about Christ being prepared to give up his life for those who initially hate him is true, but none of it precludes the plain meaning of this text, the love of any being for Christ, and that includes Christ himself, must eclipse any other love. I say this in full knowledge that I can never gauge the depths of Christ's love for me, perhaps that is why I can put his dignity before mine.
 

Behold

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Luke 26 “If anyone comes to Me land does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." .

Notice that the verse is not telling you to love?
Its telling you to understand the sacrifice.. to "count the cost'" of becoming a disciple.

Now notice that later, Paul says that Peter has a wife, and also some of the other Apostles

So, you have to compare "scripture with scripture", or you will never find the context.
 

DanielConway

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You are committing a logical error. Paul indeed says that Peter has a wife and children. He does NOT say he loves them above his love for Christ. In fact he says later that he wishes that all men could be as himself, a bachelor, because they are able to devote themselves fully to Christ, a state of being being in your society which he essentially implies is better than having a family. Pthbll.
 

Behold

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You are committing a logical error.

you are trying to prove that God is selfish about Love., and i responded to your post.
You have also posted a verse that talks about "hating parents"., as you are still trying to prove it.

Its true that God is Jealous., but Jealousy is alway a part of love.

The reason i posted that Peter had a wife, and some of the other apostles, is because none of us can equal Paul.
Paul, not peter, not any of the other apostles, was the greatest Christian who ever stood on legs.
His walk with Christ is unequalled.....and will remain so..
So, Paul is always trying to set the bar as high as it will go, so that we are inspired to reach for it.
 

DanielConway

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Let's see. You are obviously not shy about contradicting yourself. "you are trying to prove that God is selfish about Love., and I responded to your post" vs. "It's true that God is Jealous., but Jealousy is always part of love." As far as hating Parents goes, Jesus is speaking in hyperbole here, quite obviously, to STRONGLY let anyone know who might follow him just what their priority number one must be, him. He uses the same sort of language when he states that SIN is such a serious problem that if it originated in a member it would be better to cut that member off and throw it away, when in fact virtually the entirety of the Bible clearly states that sin is a heart problem, and it is that which requires the radical surgery that only he can perform, and that spiritually. As far as your digression concerning Paul goes, it is a useless one, a complete red herring. No where in the Bible does it state that no one will ever have the same knowledge of Christ that Paul had. In fact if you read Revelation with an unbiased eye it clearly implies that there will be a 144,000 who will come out of the "Great Tribulation" who will be eternally in Christ's presence, a state of familiarity with Jesus that the Bible never explicitly states that Paul enjoyed, although he might have.
 
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